Ju88 turrets useless...

[Bullets]

So from what I have found from flying the new aircraft (Which I love and think the devs did a great job!!) is that the turrets are pretty much useless..  after 2/3 very small bursts they are overheated and spraying useless pellets and then take ages to cool down only to overheat stupidly quick again.. End up not being able to defend myself, the AI gunners overheat the machine guns within seconds so they are pretty much useless too..    

Anyone think they overheat a bit too quick? or is that about right...

Anyway just thought I would ask 

 

Bonus photo of me landed on the highstreet of one of the cities near Moscow 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

They appear to shoot friendly aircraft 

[III/JG2Gustav05]

Ｉ found that you have to limit the each burst less than 0.5S and redo it with 0.5-1 interval. otherwise the bullets will spread every where and overheat very easily. but even by this way I don't think I can feel it's better than MG15.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

I don't know what you expect the turrets to REALLY do anyway. Maybe scare the fighter so he overshoots?

[Asgar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whuqWyRXMrQ

[Yogiflight]

Sorry for the question, but what happens, when they are overheating? Don`t they shoot anymore, or what else? I just tried it and there wasn`t anything, I was able to shoot the whole ammo at once. Just the normal dispersal. BTW does the same happen in the Ju87, because it has the same rear machinegun, a MG81Z.

And yes fast firing machineguns overheat quite fast, with the german MG3 with 1200 rounds per minute, you have to change the barrel after 200 rounds shot in short time. But I don`t know how large the cooling influence of the air is when you are flying with 300km/h.

[Asgar]

well, you don't HAVE to. it's the same kind of recommendation as "only use Emergency power for one minute" in a 109 F-4

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

You can sustain the guns with burst however the AI gunners dont do that. Not that they would hit anything anyways...

 

Sorry for the question, but what happens, when they are overheating? Don`t they shoot anymore, or what else? I just tried it and there wasn`t anything, I was able to shoot the whole ammo at once. Just the normal dispersal. BTW does the same happen in the Ju87, because it has the same rear machinegun, a MG81Z.

And yes fast firing machineguns overheat quite fast, with the german MG3 with 1200 rounds per minute, you have to change the barrel after 200 rounds shot in short time. But I don`t know how large the cooling influence of the air is when you are flying with 300km/h.

The dispersion and velocity becomes [Edited] so they are pretty much useless when overheating. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Bearcat
Profanity

[Asgar]

the gunners are the worst shooters ever. have you watched the video? i should put some Benny Hill music over it

alternatively. you can have this video running while you're watching the video of the 88 being attacked 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9RUoExrTsg

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

They need to fix the overheat !! You fire a couple of short burts and the gun is overheated and useless.

[Jade_Monkey]

Yes it's insanely fast.

 

After overheating the bullets just spray everywhere and its ridiculously easy to hit your own plane.

 

Im not an expert but it looks a bit overdone.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Jade_Monkey

[Bullets]

Overdone is a good word   I would think it should take longer too heat up that much and the effect in general is way overdone... watch any torture test of machine guns online and you dont see bullets spraying out like pellets of them... I mean sure I would expect accuracy and rate of fire but would bullet velocity be affected that much??? 

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Seems like airflow (cooling) would be a mitigating factor. Maybe they used some ground benchtest as a baseline. 

[Lusekofte]

I am not sure the heating is overdone. I have not tested it. But HE 111 and JU 88 gunners shot very short burst at the time. Very short. Not like the brownings in a B 17 I am looking forward to test this airplane , I had hoped the gunners made more sense for balance if anything. But they truly was not effective historical speaking

[Asgar]

in my video you can see the MiG sitting on the our six multiple times, flying in a straight line, 6 Ju-88, that's 12 gunners (top and bottom) firing at it. not a single hit. 

[Lusekofte]

Well that is not historical, flying straight in six position is basically a static target and suicide. But I have noticed significantly less effective gunners in the PE 2 also. And I think this is just wrong. If you gonna attack a bomber you should get hurt if you aint doing it properly. That is my opinion, if we fly just as target practice, no one gonna do it

[wtornado]

I would not of minded being a German gunner in a FW-200 but,I would not of liked to

be a gunner in a JU-88A-4 even if it was considered having defensive armament upgrade.

 

With what the gunner could actually see and how the guns were positioned no,I would not

of liked that at all.

 

The Allies must of have found it fun though.

It ain't no ''Flying Fortress''

[Asgar]

Well that is not historical, flying straight in six position is basically a static target and suicide. But I have noticed significantly less effective gunners in the PE 2 also. And I think this is just wrong. If you gonna attack a bomber you should get hurt if you aint doing it properly. That is my opinion, if we fly just as target practice, no one gonna do it

absolutely. that's what we all want. both when we fly bomber and when we fly fighters

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I agree, attacking a bomber us a mix of science and art, and good results come from harmonious and calculated flying, nothing else.

[216th_Peterla]

I find also the forward MG to be very difficult to use. How do you aim properly?. Looks like it has a really reduced/difficult firing arc?

[GridiroN]

Well that is not historical, flying straight in six position is basically a static target and suicide. But I have noticed significantly less effective gunners in the PE 2 also. And I think this is just wrong. If you gonna attack a bomber you should get hurt if you aint doing it properly. That is my opinion, if we fly just as target practice, no one gonna do it

I dont know who you people are who think attacking bombers is overly easy. The AI gunners in bombers had their accuracy decreased because they were laser accurate and I still find shooting down bombers is fairly lethal for anyone other than expert Pilots. I'd say I have 40/60 rate of not coming home safe vs at least getting a damaged engine or shot out of the sky.

 

The new Moscow missions for the bf110 is going to be insanely hard with the much larger, much less nimble bf110.

Edited April 8, 2016 by GridiroN

[Yogiflight]

Thanks for the answer, McKvack. I just had another try and yes it is much to soon. Even when standing on the ground there should be at least about 300 rounds possible in one burst. I then tested it with the Ju87s MG81Z, and it is exactly the same.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

GridiroN, my personal experience suggests otherwise. Unless I am sitting or passing on their dead six (or directly within the gunner's field of fire) it's hard to get hit. From above you can just come in steep and hit the engines and tanks from a nearly 90º dive, and if you are coming from below with enough speed firing a long burst from a 90º angle then banking away from the guns works too.

 

My bomber attack practice is a quick mission starting 1000m above two bombers of choice with a single fighter. I get close to them, roll over and fire as soon as I manage to aim. In ideal I start pulling up even before passing the bomber, but if I pass below that's fine too so long as I bank a little before going straight up. If I go too far down then I change plans and it them from below, where you can aim easily and then break away from the gunners. Try to learn the defensive fire arc of bombers you are attacking. Once you do it's a simple matter of diving in outside of that.

[Asgar]

I dont know who you people are who think attacking bombers is overly easy. The AI gunners in bombers had their accuracy decreased becausethey were laser accurate and I still find I shooting down bombers is fairly lethal for anyone other than expert Pilots. I'd say I have 40/60 rate of not coming home safe vs at least getting a damaged engine or shot out of the sky.

 

The new Moscow missions for the bf110 is going to be insanely hard with the much larger, much less nimble bf110.

you should watch my video. you don't really want to suggest that's how gunner should be working right?

[TG-55Panthercules]

you should watch my video. you don't really want to suggest that's how gunner should be working right?

 

From your post I expected to see a Mig "sitting on the our six multiple times, flying in a straight line", but when I watched the video you posted above, it looked like the Mig was zooming around, up and down, in and out, and the German gunners were often split, with some of them firing at the other attacker while the Mig was attacking.  It looked like at least the Mig and maybe the other attacker as well were hit, and I suspect in real life at least the Mig pilot would probably have bugged out to try to make it home.  The only time I saw the Mig actually kinda sitting back there, it was late in the video and I'm wondering if maybe some or all of the German gunners were out of ammo by then, as they'd been firing for quite some time by then.

 

Of course, I've always wondered why any of the un-escorted bombers ever made it through or came back, given how anemic their gun defenses were reputed to be (with the exception of the B-17, which had such a reputation of being a "fortress", but even its effectiveness didn't really live up to its reputation according to what I've read or seen).  And I've never really been able to reconcile my usual experience with flight sims (RoF or BoS or IL-2 or whatever) - seems like when I'm flying bombers I almost always get shot down by the fighters, and if I'm flying fighters I'm almost always shot down by the bombers.  

 

Only thing I can think of is that the AI (both sides) hates me

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

From your post I expected to see a Mig "sitting on the our six multiple times, flying in a straight line", but when I watched the video you posted above, it looked like the Mig was zooming around, up and down, in and out, and the German gunners were often split, with some of them firing at the other attacker while the Mig was attacking.  It looked like at least the Mig and maybe the other attacker as well were hit, and I suspect in real life at least the Mig pilot would probably have bugged out to try to make it home.  The only time I saw the Mig actually kinda sitting back there, it was late in the video and I'm wondering if maybe some or all of the German gunners were out of ammo by then, as they'd been firing for quite some time by then.

 

Of course, I've always wondered why any of the un-escorted bombers ever made it through or came back, given how anemic their gun defenses were reputed to be (with the exception of the B-17, which had such a reputation of being a "fortress", but even its effectiveness didn't really live up to its reputation according to what I've read or seen).  And I've never really been able to reconcile my usual experience with flight sims (RoF or BoS or IL-2 or whatever) - seems like when I'm flying bombers I almost always get shot down by the fighters, and if I'm flying fighters I'm almost always shot down by the bombers.  

 

Only thing I can think of is that the AI (both sides) hates me

2:20 Mark in the Video. 

[GridiroN]

you should watch my video. you don't really want to suggest that's how gunner should be working right?

 

No, that's pretty bad, I think something might be wrong with the gunner AI of the Ju88 in that case; however, I'm just saying there was a time where even approaching a 111 was like *HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT,HIT*

[Bullets]

I am not talking about the AI however after a few flights today firing 1 or two rounds at time with single mouse clicks seems to do the trick.. obviously you are not firing very many rounds but you avoid the overheating factor.. 

[Jade_Monkey]

I am not talking about the AI however after a few flights today firing 1 or two rounds at time with single mouse clicks seems to do the trick.. obviously you are not firing very many rounds but you avoid the overheating factor..

And how did that go?

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Kind of like this guy? ( with similar results )

 

https://youtu.be/HHx3lWQjNWM?t=90

[III/JG2Gustav05]

I am not talking about the AI however after a few flights today firing 1 or two rounds at time with single mouse clicks seems to do the trick.. obviously you are not firing very many rounds but you avoid the overheating factor.. 

I don't  think that you can fire 1 or 2 rounds each time. MG81 fire rate is 1500r/min so 2 rounds needs 0.08Sec, it's hard to do that. As I said before firing 0.3-0.5 sec each time can prevent the gun from overheating efficiently,  moreover short burst can also help to control the bullet dispersion which can be impacted by the recoil during long time burst. 

[bzc3lk]

Interesting gunner footage on this clip, application of very short bursts only.

 

[Yogiflight]

It is because you don`t have very good control of a firing machinegun which is supported in the middle. This is the reason, why infantry light machineguns have their support at the front.

A second interesting thing I noticed in this video, was the navigator saying the altitudes for the pilot during the bomb dive, so the pilot could concentrate on aiming on the target, a great support for the pilot which of course is missing in the game. Here you always have to look down to the altimeter to know when you have to throw your bombs or throw with estimation.

[Ace_Pilto]

Butter butter jam.

[SKG51_robtek]

It is because you don`t have very good control of a firing machinegun which is supported in the middle. This is the reason, why infantry light machineguns have their support at the front.

A second interesting thing I noticed in this video, was the navigator saying the altitudes for the pilot during the bomb dive, so the pilot could concentrate on aiming on the target, a great support for the pilot which of course is missing in the game. Here you always have to look down to the altimeter to know when you have to throw your bombs or throw with estimation.

Sorry, you just can't compare a mounted machine gun to a non mounted one.

[Bullets]

And how did that go?

Not well    Got shot down every time aha although I did manage to shoot any attackers too by lucky shots on their engine I guess   Its still not very effective as its very inefficient to try and deter them and fire a burst at long range to try to score a lucky hit  as like I said just just have to fire as shorter burst as you can to avoid overheating 

[SKG51_robtek]

Another reason that the defensive armament is felt less effective is, that the attackers are only risking their virtual life, they are much more aggressive as when their real life were endangered.

[GridiroN]

It is because you don`t have very good control of a firing machinegun which is supported in the middle. This is the reason, why infantry light machineguns have their support at the front.

A second interesting thing I noticed in this video, was the navigator saying the altitudes for the pilot during the bomb dive, so the pilot could concentrate on aiming on the target, a great support for the pilot which of course is missing in the game. Here you always have to look down to the altimeter to know when you have to throw your bombs or throw with estimation.

 

It also claims the plane automatically engages it's flaps after the bomb drop to counter the stall, which I don't believe the plane currently does. 

 

"Here you always have to look down to the altimeter to know when you have to throw your bombs or throw with estimation."

 

Where did you get this information? I just eyeball it. 

[Asgar]

It also claims the plane automatically engages it's flaps after the bomb drop to counter the stall, which I don't believe the plane currently does. 

 

"Here you always have to look down to the altimeter to know when you have to throw your bombs or throw with estimation."

 

Where did you get this information? I just eyeball it. 

who claims that? 

[GridiroN]

who claims that?

 

The source material.

 

Interesting gunner footage on this clip, application of very short bursts only.

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by GridiroN