russian bluffing:when and where did Ivan Kozhedub shot down 2 p51s?

[salimliu]

Russian star media published the "korean war" sieries with Ivan Kozhedub shotting down 2 p51 mustangs at the very beginning.

No evidence was showing these losses on the USAAF side. This is bluffing as usual or the truth?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kth5Dgqx7g&list=PLwGzY25TNHPB8rHBGwRAiL5FOazqTTq55

 

 

 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I'll look past the ignorant labeling of every Soviet (ie not only Russian, particularly if you remember that Kozhedub was from the golden steppes near Sumy, Ukrainian SSR) claim as bluffing.

 

The incident happened on the 17 April 1945, near Berlin. Cannot recall the exact location. Titarenko was Kozhedub's wingman in that mission, as customary.

[salimliu]

I'll look past the ignorant labeling of every Soviet (ie not only Russian, particularly if you remember that Kozhedub was from the golden steppes near Sumy, Ukrainian SSR) claim as bluffing.

 

The incident happened on the 17 April 1945, near Berlin. Cannot recall the exact location. Titarenko was Kozhedub's wingman in that mission, as customary.

the p51 in the video was red tail,but losses for 332nd in their history on 17 April 1945

 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I've never seen any indication that the P-51s involved were from the 332nd. I remember finding the names of the pilots and locations involved a while ago though, they should be easy to find.

[salimliu]

I've never seen any indication that the P-51s involved were from the 332nd. I remember finding the names of the pilots and locations involved a while ago though, they should be easy to find.

seriously,i was still hoping you could give me any leads for the fact.at least pilot.names and reliable squadron names.

 

don't slip away and say may be or Easy.or something,coz most of the combat records of the VVS has already been prooved wrong.

 

I am no such kind of luftwaffe fanatic or Usa AIR force lovers,but if you say that's true,just givme something that can be prooved.

 

History is history,can't be misguided or bluffed.

 

Ok,without reliable info,i could also say

 

Due to the relation ship of russia and usa,the national media"star media" dare to publish a video like this,why didn't  they publish more detailed info of the victim pilots?

 

They simplely don't have proofs now .Just bluffing as usual vvs combat claims.

 

History will proove the lies,people will see through it finally

[DD_Arthur]

Eh?

[Stig]

It could be post war propaganda http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=40702&highlight=Kozhedub

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Not the type to scrounge through documents of claims and etc. The incident is present in numerous well-reputed books by Russian historians, including some who are extremely picky with claims. Google doesn't have all the records in the world, and above that, both the Soviet and American governments have a pretty colourful history of getting rid of documentation and evidence that can be deemed 'inconvenient'. Last but not least, I personally take Kozhedub's word for it since he (like A. Pokryshkin, for that matter) is reputed to be very conservative in terms of claiming and so on. Multiple times he would give up shared kills and pass them as full kills to his wingmen, and he would only fill in for aircraft which he could confirm were goners most of the time.

 

This kind of incident was overwhelmingly common in the end of the war, given the increasingly small airspace these armies operated in, so I don't see why the surprise.

[Original_Uwe]

[Edited]

Edited April 16, 2016 by Bearcat
Slander

[707shap_Srbin]

Here are the two parts of Kozhedub's guncamera. 

To prevent questions - captured german film tapes were widely used in VVS, especially in last stages of war.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2016 by 1./ZG1_Panzerbar

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Nice find, Panzerbar. Look at the angle in that first shot!

[707shap_Srbin]

And the second got fuel tanks unjettisoned.

[Stig]

Agreed, it's difficult to ascertain what actually happened; therefore Kozhedub may have shot down 2 P-51's . 

The site I linked to is frequented by many serious historians, researchers and authors with an interest in WWII aviation, but needless to say, they don't have all the answers either.  

[MiloMorai]

I remember reading of this in a book published in the late '50s written by W. Green. The Soviet a/c were mistaken as Fw190As.

[Max_Damage]

is this as usual or the truth? bias shows mate. as usual what do you mean?

 

Now, in russian you can read numerous pilot memoirs about combat against american planes in the end of ww2. Not only Kozhedub but others, too.

 

One combat involved american lightnings strafing a soviet truck convoy resulting in many deaths and a soviet general KIA. After that yak9, yak3 scrambled to take down the lightnings. It happened on 7th november 1944 near the town Ниш. the operation was called frantic and it was classified

Now, soviets did this too i ve been reading how the soviet tanks attacked the british tanks in the ending days of the war. 

 

Reason for these attacks from both sides was that armies and air forces wanted to evaluate and assess the potency of possible adversaries should the coming cold war go hot. and these were not mistakes, rather deliberate combat raids.

 

You can read about it in russian but you cant read about it in english because censorship

Edited August 18, 2016 by Max_Damage

[LukeFF]

 

 

Reason for these attacks from both sides was that armies and air forces wanted to evaluate and assess the potency of possible adversaries should the coming cold war go hot. and these were not mistakes, rather deliberate combat raids.  

 

You can read about it in russian but you cant read about it in english because censorship

 

 

Uh huh, sure. If you are so confident in your arguments, then post your sources here - whatever the language may be - so we can see for ourselves. 

[ST_ami7b5]

[Max_Damage]

 

 

Uh huh, sure. If you are so confident in your arguments, then post your sources here - whatever the language may be - so we can see for ourselves. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_battle_over_Ni%C5%A1

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Koldunov

 

the part about tanks http://iremember.ru/memoirs/tankisti/alekseev-vladimir-andreevich/ you can ctrl-f " Елки зеленые! М4 – танки американские."

Edited August 18, 2016 by Max_Damage

[LukeFF]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_battle_over_Ni%C5%A1

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Koldunov

 

the part about tanks http://iremember.ru/memoirs/tankisti/alekseev-vladimir-andreevich/ you can ctrl-f " Елки зеленые! М4 – танки американские."

 

All good and well, yes, but where is the support for this: "Reason for these attacks from both sides was that armies and air forces wanted to evaluate and assess the potency of possible adversaries should the coming cold war go hot."? The capabilities of both nations' militaries were hardly a secret by that time - not to mention that attacks due to mistaken identity were hardly limited to incidents between the Americans and the Soviets: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2670&page=7

[Solty]

I've read some time ago, that Kozedlub attacked two unsuspecting P-51's over Berlin, not that he was attacked by them.

 

Also, it is interesting to note that that one P-51 still had it's fuel tanks on, which would indicate that the airplane was caught by suprise or that the pilot forgot to detach them.

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by =LD=Solty

[Brano]

There was an interesting article in czech Military Revue magazine about that Nish incident. I will try to find it in that mess of all military magazines I have in my garage