New old il-2 fan, can someone fill me in on the last 7-8 years of Il-2 history?

April 4, 2016

Hi all, old returning il-2 fan.

The original Il-2 was once something that occupied a lot of my time. I guess kids, work and other hobbies changed that. Or perhaps that's just a bad excuse. Had a fallback few years back and bought il2 cod, quickly gave that up! Now I recently discovered these relatively new Bos and Bom games, and that magic is back. Been lurking about this forum for tips on engine management and whatever else as I feel like a total noob again. A feeling I'm enjoying.

What I can't figure out is what happened after the original il-2? I remember Oleg and team were showing very promising and impressive screenshots of their next-gen il-2 "Battle of Britain" sim. Was this the same game I bought a few years later that was so badly crippled? Or was it handed to a new dev-team at some point. I had the pleasure of briefly working with Oleg and team as I made the c200 saetta and p-40 for the forgotten battles and 1946 expansions. It just struck me as strange that these guys so devoted to their work would release a product that broken.

Now Bos and Bom. Which I'm absolutely enjoying. Behind these games are the devs that did rise of flight? And no connection to the original il-2 dev team? If so. What happened to Oleg, luthier and that gang?

I hope someone here knows what I'm talking about

Cheers

Radek

April 4, 2016

Use the Search function. What you want answered has been discussed countless times in the last several years.

April 4, 2016

Been around since 2002 so I can probably help answer this.

Oleg's (Maddox Games) team did a great job on the original IL-2 Sturmovik. From there the definitive product was IL-2 Forgotten Battles which added a ton of stuff to the series and that lasted a good long while. Oleg's team mostly shifted their resources towards the Battle of Britain sim and third party devs were supposed to handle Pacific Fighters but when that product got into trouble, Oleg's team (from what I know) had to jump in and save that. From there we got a few extra addons like the IL-10, Pe-2, and the 1946 addon.

Meanwhile Oleg's team was working on the next gen Battle of Britain sim but I think a combination of scope creep, overly ambitious design choices, and probably Ubisoft saying "cut your losses and release this product now" mean that IL-2 Cliffs of Dover came out half baked and unfinished. After that, the Maddox games team team got tentatively started on a Moscow sim when I think the plug was pulled (and Oleg wasn't really into things anymore at that point anyways).

The latest chapter involves 1CGS and 777 Studios which were responsible for Rise of Flight. They spent a few years perfecting their own engine technologies and all of the backend stuff on that product. I'm not sure what deal happened but they basically inherited assets from the Maddox Games team and were then charged with making a new next gen IL-2 series sim using their engine which ended up being IL-2: Battle for Stalingrad and then later IL-2: Battle for Moscow. I don't think a lot of the work done for the original Moscow based sim (using the Cliffs of Dover game engine) made it into BoM/BoS but I don't know.

That's an abridged history

Edited April 4, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

April 4, 2016

Thanks shamrock! All I wanted to know.

Luke, your right. Just did, and found a Simhq link to a lengthy retrospective interview with Oleg Maddox.

April 4, 2016

I should check up on how old Maddox has been doing since IL2. I left to concentrate on my work and heard bad things about the BOB sim, even though I wanted to get it, so held off (wasn`t keen on Steam either). I`m a patient man so waited out until BOS came out, gave it time, then decided to plumb for it after the prices started to get reasonable. There are some things I`ve liked, but some changes I don`t- Such as the enforced being online all the while to play the SP campaign, fortunately mods have provided an alternative.

April 4, 2016

I should check up on how old Maddox has been doing since IL2. I left to concentrate on my work and heard bad things about the BOB sim, even though I wanted to get it, so held off (wasn`t keen on Steam either). I`m a patient man so waited out until BOS came out, gave it time, then decided to plumb for it after the prices started to get reasonable. There are some things I`ve liked, but some changes I don`t- Such as the enforced being online all the while to play the SP campaign, fortunately mods have provided an alternative.

It's just the state of gaming in 2016, a lot of games are requiring an internet connection to play.

In most places this shouldn't really be a problem, but we arent used to it yet.

April 5, 2016

It's just the state of gaming in 2016, a lot of games are requiring an internet connection to play.

In most places this shouldn't really be a problem, but we arent used to it yet.

Indeed! Most other games I play these days tend to be online almost exclusively. It's taken me a while to accept that we're moving towards Internet as a service not quite on par with but approaching that of electricity. May not be there yet for some people but it's headed that direction.

April 5, 2016

Indeed! Most other games I play these days tend to be online almost exclusively. It's taken me a while to accept that we're moving towards Internet as a service not quite on par with but approaching that of electricity. May not be there yet for some people but it's headed that direction.

There`s still a LOT of games I play that don`t need to be online 24\7. Not everyone exclusively plays online there is a silent, I believe majority of people who are happy to be on their computers and not always be on the net to play a game.

Also electricity for the need of survival like powering light and utilities is one thing, but just for games I think is creating a crutch that will hurt a lot of people if it ever collapses _ and it can collapse very easily.

I still believe that at the end of the day it suits companies and corporations to have people online 24\7 to make money and to keep tabs on them in a form of DRM.

Not good reasons to handcuff people to the internet.

April 5, 2016

Just to clear up one thing, and I can't believe it's still being thought of as what happened.

UBI had NOTHING to do with the rushed release of Battle of Britain, it was all 1C's decision.

Edited April 5, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

April 5, 2016

There`s still a LOT of games I play that don`t need to be online 24\7. Not everyone exclusively plays online there is a silent, I believe majority of people who are happy to be on their computers and not always be on the net to play a game.

Also electricity for the need of survival like powering light and utilities is one thing, but just for games I think is creating a crutch that will hurt a lot of people if it ever collapses _ and it can collapse very easily.

I still believe that at the end of the day it suits companies and corporations to have people online 24\7 to make money and to keep tabs on them in a form of DRM.

Not good reasons to handcuff people to the internet.

I feel the same about this, when I grew up there was no internet, and I played tons of SP games, and even ones that were updated with patches and add on's through CompuServe, and Computer City USA.

heck even the Windows updates where located at your check out line at CompUSA.

Edited April 5, 2016 by 71st_Mastiff

April 6, 2016

There`s still a LOT of games I play that don`t need to be online 24\7. Not everyone exclusively plays online there is a silent, I believe majority of people who are happy to be on their computers and not always be on the net to play a game.

Also electricity for the need of survival like powering light and utilities is one thing, but just for games I think is creating a crutch that will hurt a lot of people if it ever collapses _ and it can collapse very easily.

I still believe that at the end of the day it suits companies and corporations to have people online 24\7 to make money and to keep tabs on them in a form of DRM.

Not good reasons to handcuff people to the internet.

Sure there are plenty but the number is beginning to dwindle significantly. I don't disagree that in some ways this works as a kind of DRM that's in many ways simpler and less of an issue than the early attempts (I remember the horror stories of the early days) but it definitely means you need to be connected. That said... I've got 5 devices in my home that could be connected to the internet and I can't think of a single reason why any of them wouldn't be connected. In fact I rely on them to be connected. Electricity isn't a need for survival although one may argue that these days it is... And I see the internet becoming the same thing in short order. Its becoming difficult to operate or do anything without the internet from fun things like games and media consumption to serious things like paying bills and applying to jobs.

Back to the immediate subject matter at hand. The biggest issue here is if something happens and 1CGS' authentication server(s) take a fall. Then we're basically locked out of all but the simplest of functions in IL-2. Hoping that doesn't happen.

Just to clear up one thing, and I can't believe it's still being thought of as what happened.

UBI had NOTHING to do with the rushed release of Battle of Britain, it was all 1C's decision.

I said that. And seeing as there has never been official word (to my knowledge)... I assumed that it was Ubisoft that grew impatient as it was around the time that they were under serious pressure and they were redefining the games that they were focused on. I'm surprised to learn it was 1C but you shouldn't be surprised that we don't all know that.

Edited April 6, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

April 6, 2016

Do mods a favor and don`t mention Luthier`s name anyomore on here boards.

April 6, 2016

I remember in a moment it was said that the development of CloD (former Storm of War) was about 9M dollars, and after 6 years there were still nor even an alpha. And that's was one of the main reasons Oleg was forced to quit

April 7, 2016

Whoever's fault, the huge (commercial) failure and financial losses of CloD have had big repercussions as to funding and development of ("hardcore") WWII flight sims, and also led to a lot of animosity, deservedly or not to 1C Games, and inexplicably towards 777 studios

Cheers Dakpilot

April 7, 2016

I still occasionally fly in il-2 1946 using the HSFX 7 mods. I don't know nor really care how old that stuff is, but it feels like nursery school compared to flying in BoS which is a good thing IMO.

Edited April 7, 2016 by AcidBath

April 7, 2016

What happened to Oleg, luthier and that gang?

Luthier later started a Kickstarter project for DCS WWII: Europe 1944 and Oleg Maddox was in a promotional video for that project, but after the project had spent up all it's money and was badly delayed, Eagle Dynamics kicked Luthier out and took over the project (still not completed). I don't think Oleg was involved in it in any way other than used for marketing.

Edited April 7, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp

April 7, 2016

Luthier later started a Kickstarter project for DCS WWII: Europe 1944 and Oleg Maddox was in a promotional video for that project, but after the project had spent up all it's money and was badly delayed, Eagle Dynamics kicked Luthier out and took over the project (still not completed). I don't think Oleg was involved in it in any way other than used for marketing.

Really?

Holy crap lucky I didn't buy into that when it started and I almost did.

April 7, 2016

There`s still a LOT of games I play that don`t need to be online 24\7. Not everyone exclusively plays online there is a silent, I believe majority of people who are happy to be on their computers and not always be on the net to play a game.

Also electricity for the need of survival like powering light and utilities is one thing, but just for games I think is creating a crutch that will hurt a lot of people if it ever collapses _ and it can collapse very easily.

I still believe that at the end of the day it suits companies and corporations to have people online 24\7 to make money and to keep tabs on them in a form of DRM.

Not good reasons to handcuff people to the internet.

It is true in a way that we are handcuffed to the internet.Waiting for games we want,the way we want them developed.

I receive through STEAM alone 30-50 GiG of patches and updates consuming a lot of my internet consumption.

Star Citizen alone gobbles up 27 GiG of updates MINIMUM but ,usually it's more just on its own.

I have reached the summit of my gaming experience and I see the shining light for co-ops and and a easy access lobby!

Only one way and that's up in flight sims.

DOH!

.

439th_Wtornado

Edited April 7, 2016 by WTornado

April 7, 2016

I remember in a moment it was said that the development of CloD (former Storm of War) was about 9M dollars, and after 6 years there were still nor even an alpha. And that's was one of the main reasons Oleg was forced to quit

I well remember the first 2004 press release by Ubisoft who were pleased to announce the Battle of Britain sequel to the Il-2 series, due to be released in 2006.

Oleg slowly lost control of his company's future over the following five years, every time he allowed another delay and feature-creep, and accepted a new injection of funds from 1c or Ubi. These were not gifts. They came at the cost of ever larger slices of future profit and shares of the company's leadership. Eventually after two or three engine rewrites, five years and any number of handouts with interest, he had found himself sidelined and the future of Maddox Games was one solely of reparations. There was no point going on by that stage.

April 7, 2016

Wow. Sad. I had no idea Oleg was out.

April 7, 2016

I well remember the first 2004 press release by Ubisoft who were pleased to announce the Battle of Britain sequel to the Il-2 series, due to be released in 2006.

Oleg slowly lost control of his company's future over the following five years, every time he allowed another delay and feature-creep, and accepted a new injection of funds from 1c or Ubi. These were not gifts. They came at the cost of ever larger slices of future profit and shares of the company's leadership. Eventually after two or three engine rewrites, five years and any number of handouts with interest, he had found himself sidelined and the future of Maddox Games was one solely of reparations. There was no point going on by that stage.

yes i remember those first screen shots in the old pacific fighters site, and the promise that it would be released in 2006

April 7, 2016

In fact, BOS and BOMs game engine is improved game engine (Digital Nature, DX9) used in Rise of Flight and developed by NEOQB team from Russia. Later, 777 Studios "took over" the team (its the same team now, ofcourse). Some of the guys in NEOQB (now 777 studios) were involved in development of old IL2 and most of them were involved in development of Rise of flight.

IL2 Cliffs of Dover was a failure due to a bad, premature release, bad performance, though the engine was very advanced (DX11 btw). Oleg abandoned the project in early stage (for some not know reason) and Ily Shevchenko took over the lead. Also some of the ex IL2 devs worked on the title. Game finally got its final official release, where it was at least playable on most modern PCs. Today, the game is still decent and better, updating the engine and features (planes etc) thanks to the team of enthusiasts - Team Fusion.

all in all we are really lucky the genre is still alive TBH

and just to make things into perspective (with my bad english)....it takes much longer to make one plane for BOS, than it was for old IL2. FM, DM, 3d models, physics, atmosphere, graphics..everything is much better and more detailed, in BOS.

Edited April 7, 2016 by blackram

April 7, 2016

Not that it really matters but Cliffs of Dover was DX10

Cheers Dakpilot

April 7, 2016

Not that it really matters but Cliffs of Dover was DX10

Cheers Dakpilot

Yes, I made a typo but since we are at it...Initially it was planned to be DX11 but was decided to go with DX10 because they had some probs with DX11.

April 7, 2016

It's just the state of gaming in 2016, a lot of games are requiring an internet connection to play.

In most places this shouldn't really be a problem, but we arent used to it yet.

I assume that the chief benefit of this is that it gives the development team all sorts of data about how the game is being used. Perhaps some of the bad decisions in past games were the result of not having any access to real data about a game. Having real metrics is invaluable for a team with limited resources.

April 7, 2016

and just to make things into perspective (with my bad english)....it takes much longer to make one plane for BOS, than it was for old IL2. FM, DM, 3d models, physics, atmosphere, graphics..everything is much better and more detailed, in BOS.

According to what Ilya said in his Kickstarter video, it's about 60x as much work today compared to the old series.

April 7, 2016

In fact, BOS and BOMs game engine is improved game engine (Digital Nature, DX9) used in Rise of Flight and developed by NEOQB team from Russia. Later, 777 Studios "took over" the team (its the same team now, ofcourse). Some of the guys in NEOQB (now 777 studios) were involved in development of old IL2 and most of them were involved in development of Rise of flight.

IL2 Cliffs of Dover was a failure due to a bad, premature release, bad performance, though the engine was very advanced (DX11 btw). Oleg abandoned the project in early stage (for some not know reason) and Ily Shevchenko took over the lead. Also some of the ex IL2 devs worked on the title. Game finally got its final official release, where it was at least playable on most modern PCs. Today, the game is still decent and better, updating the engine and features (planes etc) thanks to the team of enthusiasts - Team Fusion.

all in all we are really lucky the genre is still alive TBH

Interesting. So it was a rough and stormy sea then. Thanks for the information. Still sad to see Oleg gone. He was the spirit of IL2.

April 7, 2016

Cliffs of Dover is thriving and works beautifully under the direction of Team Fusion. A new theatre and many new planes will be released this year.

April 8, 2016

The problem with this constant connection need is for people like myself who will be away from a Internet connection for months,I'm joining the US Navy as a pilot and when done with training I wanted to bring my favorite games along with me to sea since I'll be there for 8 months at a time but I can't because many require constant or frequent connections...DRM like that only hurts paying customers people with hacked copies don't have to deal with it. Atleast IL2 isnt as bad as GTA V which checks to see if your copy is legal every 3 days and requires you to connect to the internet... I don't get it. If I had a legal copy from the start why do you need to keep checking it? It's not like I'm going to trash the copy I paid for and download an illegal one.... I understand deva wanting to protect their games but honestly people will find a way to break a DRM,and harsh DRM just pisses off paying customers because they are the only ones effected by it.

Edited April 8, 2016 by II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33

April 8, 2016

The problem with this constant connection need is for people like myself who will be away from a Internet connection for months,I'm joining the US Navy as a pilot and when done with training I wanted to bring my favorite games along with me to sea since I'll be there for 8 months at a time but I can't because many require constant or frequent connections...DRM like that only hurts paying customers people with hacked copies don't have to deal with it. Atleast IL2 isnt as bad as GTA V which checks to see if your copy is legal every 3 days and requires you to connect to the internet... I don't get it. If I had a legal copy from the start why do you need to keep checking it? It's not like I'm going to trash the copy I paid for and download an illegal one.... I understand deva wanting to protect their games but honestly people will find a way to break a DRM,and harsh DRM just pisses off paying customers because they are the only ones effected by it.

Agreed, but the industry has forced it and too few people care enough for any change. I`ve tried to get an optional choice in this, but no, we MUST be connected to the net for the campaign.

There are still some modern games that let you play Offline, like the recent Xcom2. I find BOS is a little on the extreme side with it`s `must be online for the Single Player campaign` routine. It does not need to be. The only reason i`ve decided to take it with this is because Iwant to fly a WW2 sim that`s uptodate!

Oh and theres GOG which stands strong against this kind of thing which I heavily support.

Edited April 8, 2016 by seafireliv

April 11, 2016

Agreed, but the industry has forced it and too few people care enough for any change. I`ve tried to get an optional choice in this, but no, we MUST be connected to the net for the campaign.

There are still some modern games that let you play Offline, like the recent Xcom2. I find BOS is a little on the extreme side with it`s `must be online for the Single Player campaign` routine. It does not need to be. The only reason i`ve decided to take it with this is because Iwant to fly a WW2 sim that`s uptodate!

Oh and theres GOG which stands strong against this kind of thing which I heavily support.

Actually, i think it needs to be online because the missions are generated randomly by the server, not your pc.

Thats what i recall, correct me if im wrong.

April 11, 2016

Actually, i think it needs to be online because the missions are generated randomly by the server, not your pc.

Thats what i recall, correct me if im wrong.

I believe that`s the case, but why?

I haven`t seen the campaign do anything special that`s made me think, ` Wow!`

It`s not making a persistent world where things develope the next time you go back in. There`s not even more aircraft. So why?

I`ve seen many games quite happily generate missions offline, even better dynamic ones than this.

Edited April 11, 2016 by seafireliv

April 11, 2016

I believe that`s the case, but why?

I haven`t seen the campaign do anything special that`s made me think, ` Wow!`

It`s not making a persistent world where things develope the next time you go back in. There`s not even more aircraft. So why?

I`ve seen many games quite happily generate missions offline, even better dynamic ones than this.

Yeah, it could be a form of DRM.

Not sure the exact reason why.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Jade_Monkey

April 11, 2016

I believe the game is persistently connected online, for certain modes, so that the developers can gain very valuable information. Especially for the Campaign, it tells them how many people play it and for how long etc. Everyone asks for certain features in this game. The data tells the developer what's really being used. For example, How popular are the new custom campaign missions? How many people use the tanks?

The value of this information trumps the need for players to sometimes play offline. Which is still possible in certain modes.

April 11, 2016

The value in having the campaign online also means the developers can fix issues that crop up on the fly, without having to wait for an official patch/hotfix. It's the same reason for ROF's career mode having the online requirement.

April 12, 2016

I should check up on how old Maddox has been doing since IL2. I left to concentrate on my work and heard bad things about the BOB sim, even though I wanted to get it, so held off (wasn`t keen on Steam either). I`m a patient man so waited out until BOS came out, gave it time, then decided to plumb for it after the prices started to get reasonable. There are some things I`ve liked, but some changes I don`t- Such as the enforced being online all the while to play the SP campaign, fortunately mods have provided an alternative.

Hi all, old returning il-2 fan.

The original Il-2 was once something that occupied a lot of my time. I guess kids, work and other hobbies changed that. Or perhaps that's just a bad excuse. Had a fallback few years back and bought il2 cod, quickly gave that up! Now I recently discovered these relatively new Bos and Bom games, and that magic is back. Been lurking about this forum for tips on engine management and whatever else as I feel like a total noob again. A feeling I'm enjoying.

What I can't figure out is what happened after the original il-2? I remember Oleg and team were showing very promising and impressive screenshots of their next-gen il-2 "Battle of Britain" sim. Was this the same game I bought a few years later that was so badly crippled? Or was it handed to a new dev-team at some point. I had the pleasure of briefly working with Oleg and team as I made the c200 saetta and p-40 for the forgotten battles and 1946 expansions. It just struck me as strange that these guys so devoted to their work would release a product that broken.

Now Bos and Bom. Which I'm absolutely enjoying. Behind these games are the devs that did rise of flight? And no connection to the original il-2 dev team? If so. What happened to Oleg, luthier and that gang?

I hope someone here knows what I'm talking about

Cheers

Radek

Wow..... Blasts from the past!!

Really?

Holy crap lucky I didn't buy into that when it started and I almost did.

It is not too bad... So far I got the Fw-190 and the Me-109 from my KS investment.. and when the P-47, Spit and Normandy map finally are releassed.. (whenever that will be..) I will get them as well based on the investment.. I felt I had to do something though.. there are too few decent WWII sims out.. CoD is much improved thankls to the TF modding team.. and the DCS WWII contemt is nice.. but so far there is no WWII environment... so it is kindof lacking and limited... In my opinion the best dedicated WWII sim on the market is IL2.2 ...

Thew old girls still floats my boat as well though.. She may be long in the tooth.. but I still find IL2 can be fun if you just keep in mind that it is 15 years old...

The problem with this constant connection need is for people like myself who will be away from a Internet connection for months,I'm joining the US Navy as a pilot and when done with training I wanted to bring my favorite games along with me to sea since I'll be there for 8 months at a time but I can't because many require constant or frequent connections...DRM like that only hurts paying customers people with hacked copies don't have to deal with it. Atleast IL2 isnt as bad as GTA V which checks to see if your copy is legal every 3 days and requires you to connect to the internet... I don't get it. If I had a legal copy from the start why do you need to keep checking it? It's not like I'm going to trash the copy I paid for and download an illegal one.... I understand deva wanting to protect their games but honestly people will find a way to break a DRM,and harsh DRM just pisses off paying customers because they are the only ones effected by it.

I think piracy was the driving force behind this whole movement .... if my memory serves me correctly... in the industry itself I mean... Hopefully eventually you won't need that handshake...

BTW.... moving this...

April 13, 2016

Cliffs of Dover is thriving and works beautifully under the direction of Team Fusion. A new theatre and many new planes will be released this year.

ATAG Team Fusion literally saved the CloD sim.It is a real pleasure to play these days.I spend about 50% here in Russia and 50% over the Channel...

As with many sims the first release of BoS with its unimaginative campaigns & snowy maps gave me some pause but I must say the new maps and BoM planes along with PWCG have me firmly anchored in BoS& BoM as well.The 777 team has consistantly come through with things they have promised.

April 16, 2016

It is not too bad... So far I got the Fw-190 and the Me-109 from my KS investment.. and when the P-47, Spit and Normandy map finally are releassed.. (whenever that will be..)

For what it is worth, Normandy map will be finished this year.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2725348&postcount=3

His 'Should be' sounds more firmly than a 'May be' or 'Could be'.

At least it will generate quite some screenshots of the work in progress. I hope.

April 16, 2016

As soon as I saw the "should be" I added another year.

April 16, 2016

As soon as I saw the "should be" I added another year.

I think the lyrics of Johnny Logan are very applicable here then.

New old il-2 fan, can someone fill me in on the last 7-8 years of Il-2 history?

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