Fw190 - What have they done ?!?

[DD_Arthur]

The claims that are made in this thread.....

 

 

How can they expect to be taken seriously after that...

 

 

Turban; since you do not have the FW190 in your game let me explain what has happened as far as I can see.  The devs have adjusted the flight model for this plane.  It would seem to many of us that enjoy flying this plane a lot that these changes are detrimental to certain aspects of its performance.

 

Some people have described this change in rather emotive terms that I would not use myself - however, I do agree with what is driving the underlying sentiment.

For me, what was the most satisfying and rewarding plane in the game to fly has been hamstrung by these latest changes.  For other people these changes are not as apparent or not as important. That is their opinion and thats fine with me.

 

I hope that the changes made to this latest FM can be.......readjusted......in order to give us back the more extensive range of control harmony it had before.

[MadisonV44]

+1  

 

100% agree with you DD_Arthur 

[Finkeren]

 

 

 

Turban; since you do not have the FW190 in your game let me explain what has happened as far as I can see. The devs have adjusted the flight model for this plane. It would seem to many of us that enjoy flying this plane a lot that these changes are detrimental to certain aspects of its performance.

 

Some people have described this change in rather emotive terms that I would not use myself - however, I do agree with what is driving the underlying sentiment.

For me, what was the most satisfying and rewarding plane in the game to fly has been hamstrung by these latest changes. For other people these changes are not as apparent or not as important. That is their opinion and thats fine with me.

 

I hope that the changes made to this latest FM can be.......readjusted......in order to give us back the more extensive range of control harmony it had before.

Two points:

 

1. I maintain, that much of it is simply a matter of adjusting control input. Such small changes to FM are often felt more severely by the most experienced pilots, who are used to fly the plane to its absolute limit. Therefore the guys who fly a plane almost exclusively will often claim that their favourite has become "totally unflyable" or "a brick", when others hardly notice any difference at all. After a while there will hardly be a noticable difference. Happened to me, when they adjusted the FM for the La-5.

 

2. If the corrected stall speeds are in fact closer to historical data, as the devs claim, then certainly that's a good thing right? We want the models in the sim to reflect reality as closely as posible I presume?

[ShamrockOneFive]

Well, they increased the climb rate (correct), but they also increased the stall speed (not correct).

 

So the plane is better AND worse than before.

 

The stall speed was changed based on documentation that was sent in... So is the changed stall speed not correct or is it more accurate?

[Dr_Molenbeek]

The stall speed was changed based on documentation that was sent in... So is the changed stall speed not correct or is it more accurate?

 

Devs are not Gods, guess why they changed high speed controls while they did it 1 year ago, guess why they changed the climb rate while they did it more than 1 year ago, always "according to references" ? So with this logic, the climb rate was OK during all this time because they said it was ok according to their references ? No, it was not.

 

Stall speed is too high --> the 190 is less maneuverable and reaches critical AoA faster than before, period.

 

And before someone ask... I'm already used to it, 2 hours ago i was alone against 2 La-5 at low altitude and i killed them without stalling once. Does that mean the 190 is ok ? No.

 

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[=FEW=Hauggy]

Funny. I tried out the 190 last night and didn't find any appreciable difference in handling or performance.

 

Subjective experience is highly unreliable. Tests will have to be done to show if anything has truly changed.

Same here first sortie 3 kills in a few minutes I didn't noticed any big difference.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Same here first sortie 3 kills in a few minutes I didn't noticed any big difference.

 

Do you have a stick extension ?

 

If so, what size ?

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Wings of Liberty server - Statistics of shotdown aircraft

Months -  Number of Russian victories - Number of German victories

 

APRIL (as of now in progress) 946 - 871

March : 8150 - 10350

February : 7494 - 8934

January : 9188 - 11826

 

> What happened ? March 31st patch

 

 

 

LoL Turban. What do you do here.

[=FEW=Hauggy]

Do you have a stick extension ?

 

If so, what size ?

Nope just a regular cheap (but good) Joystick I've had for a couple of years.

Edited April 3, 2016 by 5./ZG1_Haug

[Asgar]

 

Wings of Liberty server - Statistics of shotdown aircraft

Months -  Number of Russian victories - Number of German victories

 

APRIL (as of now in progress) 946 - 871

March : 8150 - 10350

February : 7494 - 8934

January : 9188 - 11826

 

> What happened ? March 31st patch

 

 

 

LoL Turban. What do you do here.

 

yes the March 31st patch...it introduced a new German bomber that a whole bunch of people are flying. bombers are easier to shoot down than fighters. and since WoL was the only server that had the 88 for 2 days, FL, Tactical Air War only added it today. DED still doesn't has it. i guess a lot of people who wanted to try out the new bomber had to fly on WoL. that's probably the reason for those results

[Turban]

 

Wings of Liberty server - Statistics of shotdown aircraft

Months -  Number of Russian victories - Number of German victories

 

APRIL (as of now in progress) 946 - 871

March : 8150 - 10350

February : 7494 - 8934

January : 9188 - 11826

 

> What happened ? March 31st patch

 

 

 

LoL Turban. What do you do here.

 

 

 

You don't mention  Mk MrX switched side. Was that a deliberate act of omission in order to hide an important factor ? With 76 kills so far, it makes a big difference.

 

Mk MrX biggest number of kills in one flight on german planes : 8 . Biggest number of kills in one flight on russian planes : 5 

 

I think it's safe to say yak 1 didn't become yak 3 overnight.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Turban

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I will give you that the accelerated stall happens sooner and with less warning. Much less buffet sound before the wing comes around on you. No problem on the straight pull out from a dive but if the ailerons are in use she has a tendancy to snap over under high G. I've gotten used to very little rudder input on a 190 but have seen another post state a more active rudder may reduce this effect. Coming from back from 109's, this shouldn't be too hard to implement. I'll try it and get back to you....................

Edited April 3, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[GridiroN]

I'm watching a development documentary on the FW190 as we speak and it claims the FW190 could outturn and outroll the BF109-F series, and was markedly more maneuverable. It was almost as fast the 109 up to about 5000m, and although it has a 1min slower climb to 10,000m than the 109, beats it in a dive by a significant margin.

 

I'd say the FW190 in BoS is significantly worse than the 109-F at all of those things except diving. What do you guys think? I'd say the FW190 is portrayed in BoS as simply climbing above your enemy and falling on them with stabbing attacks, and makes for an inferior dogfighter. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by GridiroN

[216th_Xenos]

I'm watching a development documentary on the FW190 as we speak and it claims the FW190 could outturn and outroll the BF109-F series, and was markedly more maneuverable. It was almost as fast the 109 up to about 5000m, and although it has a 1min slower climb to 10,000m than the 109, beats it in a dive by a significant margin.

 

I'd say the FW190 in BoS is significantly worse than the 109-F at all of those things except diving. What do you guys think? I'd say the FW190 is portrayed in BoS as simply climbing above your enemy and falling on them with stabbing attacks, and makes for an inferior dogfighter. 

 

Which documentary and which 190?

[GridiroN]

Which documentary and which 190?

 

They don't specify. They're discussing the 190 (not long nosed, late war version) in general between 1939 (it's inception) and America's joining of the war and it's use of deep bombing raids with B17's. I'm assuming the 190 they compared to the 109 F would be whatever version would have been in mass production at the time as only JG26 and 2 were outfitted completely with 190s on the west. 

 

Edit: It would have been the A0 I think as this would have been before the water-injected engine and it's weapon loadout had no cannons.

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by GridiroN

[Grancesc]

I can not imagine that a German pilot in WW II had ever achieved a kill with an aircraft with such a bad stall behavior.​ They would all crashed without firing a shot. I'm sorry to say this but the developers have screwed up the FM of the FW190. After lengthy tests it had been corrected for the better. Can anyone tell me why they have worsened it? Is it because of the game balance. Too bad that this superb update gets a bad aftertaste by such a blunder.

 

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[Turban]

Just an idea but what if it was the 109 F that was... over performing a bit ?  The roll for example, especially at high speed..

 

i know it's crazy.. but what if ?

 

 

Anyway, I feel dirty talking about this here, we should go to the FM discussion subforum...

[Dr_Molenbeek]

I'm watching a development documentary on the FW190 as we speak and it claims the FW190 could outturn and outroll the BF109-F series, and was markedly more maneuverable.

 

 

I guess you're talking about this scene: https://youtu.be/R0YLLBvIBFk?t=53s

 

As i said on another forum, i find the french translation more clear: https://youtu.be/bBwTnfL6aOE?t=17m20s

 

It says "Thanks to its considerably flexible elevators, the Focke-Wulf could go in a turn at any speed, and make tighter barrels than the Messerschmitt."

 

I'd say the FW190 in BoS is significantly worse than the 109-F at all of those things except diving. What do you guys think? I'd say the FW190 is portrayed in BoS as simply climbing above your enemy and falling on them with stabbing attacks, and makes for an inferior dogfighter. 

 

Fixe Fw 190 stall speed, fixe Bf 109s über roll rate, and everything become perfect or near.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Ze_Hairy

[Turban]

I can not imagine that a German pilot in WW II had ever achieved a kill with an aircraft with such a bad stall behavior.​ They would all crashed without firing a shot. I'm sorry to say this but the developers have screwed up the FM of the FW190. After lengthy tests it had been corrected for the better. Can anyone tell me why they have worsened it? Is it because of the game balance. Too bad that this superb update gets a bad aftertaste by such a blunder.

 

 

The FW had a tendancy to stall without warning on abrupt AOA changes. That's fact.

 

Believe it or not, but planes have flaws. Even german ones. I know it sounds crazy to some people, but it's the truth.

I think people need a reality check. German planes were neither flawless, nor easy to fly. They had great qualities for sure, but they were not perfect.

 

I feel the devs will never have peace untill they produce flawless german aircraft.

[ShamrockOneFive]

 

Devs are not Gods, guess why they changed high speed controls while they did it 1 year ago, guess why they changed the climb rate while they did it more than 1 year ago, always "according to references" ? So with this logic, the climb rate was OK during all this time because they said it was ok according to their references ? No, it was not.

 

Stall speed is too high --> the 190 is less maneuverable and reaches critical AoA faster than before, period.

 

And before someone ask... I'm already used to it, 2 hours ago i was alone against 2 La-5 at low altitude and i killed them without stalling once. Does that mean the 190 is ok ? No.

 

 

Didn't say they were gods so not sure where that comes from. Drop them some data so it can be changed because from what I've read it sounds like this is currently the most accurate. One of the last dev updates said this:

 

 

 

Fw 190 flight model was also corrected (thanks to [i.B.]ViRUS for his cool finding of additional Fw 190 A-4 Lift-Drag curves) so its turn tume and climb rate correspond to the reference better.

 

So apparently this is the best data available. Maybe its not... Heck if I can keep it all straight. Basically all I see are a bunch of people saying its wrong, a few people do the work to find new data, then that data is declared wrong by the people saying so before. Its mind numbing. While I can make an argument for how to do well with a plane despite any modeling issues, that's not what I'm saying here. I just want accuracy. If its wrong... show that its wrong. Not to me... I can't change it

Edited April 3, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[GridiroN]

I can not imagine that a German pilot in WW II had ever achieved a kill with an aircraft with such a bad stall behavior.​ They would all crashed without firing a shot. I'm sorry to say this but the developers have screwed up the FM of the FW190. After lengthy tests it had been corrected for the better. Can anyone tell me why they have worsened it? Is it because of the game balance. Too bad that this superb update gets a bad aftertaste by such a blunder.

 

Real pilots didn't drop 2500m on people at 800kph. That's what the 190 was good at in this game before, but it doesn't seem to be accurate according to both the docu I linked and whatever other sources 1C seems to have found. It appears the 190 was more of a dogfighter than than BoS was giving it credit for.

 

Just an idea but what if it was the 109 F that was... over performing a bit ?  The roll for example, especially at high speed..

 

i know it's crazy.. but what if ?

 

 

Anyway, I feel dirty talking about this here, we should go to the FM discussion subforum...

 

I guess you're talking about this scene: https://youtu.be/R0YLLBvIBFk?t=53s

 

As i said on another forum, i find the french translation more clear: https://youtu.be/bBwTnfL6aOE?t=17m20s

 

It says "Thanks to its considerably flexible elevators, the Focke-Wulf could go in a turn at any speed, and make tighter barrels than the Messerschmitt."

 

 

Fixe Fw 190 stall speed, fixe Bf 109s über roll rate, and everything become perfect or near.

 

I don't know why everyone whines about the F4. It's the only plane I fly and whilst I'm an amateur pilot compared to some of the guys on WoL server, I am fairly regularly outclassed by Yaks. Sure, I'll agree the F4 is exceptionally easy to fly as far as forgivingness of an aircraft is concerned, but just like real life, whoever has the A) altitude, B) energy, and C) awareness is usually going to win like 90% of the time regardless of what plane they're in. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by GridiroN

[Dr_Molenbeek]

I don't know why everyone whines about the F4.

 

Because it overperforms.

 

How can i make it more clear ? Oh, i know ! See below.

 

[GridiroN]

 

Because it overperforms.

 

How can i make it more clear ? Oh, i know ! See below.

 

 

 

Explain to me what you think this chart is communicating please (Because if i'm reading it correctly, it's directly contradicting your opinion)

Edited April 3, 2016 by GridiroN

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Explain to me what you think this chart is communicating please (Because if i'm reading it correctly, it's directly contradicting your opinion)

 

Blue curve is how it rolls in BoS, and purple curve is how it should roll, more or less.

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

You don't mention  Mk MrX switched side. Was that a deliberate act of omission in order to hide an important factor ? With 76 kills so far, it makes a big difference.

 

Mk MrX biggest number of kills in one flight on german planes : 8 . Biggest number of kills in one flight on russian planes : 5 

 

Even considering he switched side, the result is still the same, the russians will get more kills than the germans with this version cos no one will fly the 190 soon...

Btw, i suspect he switched because german side is crap now, russians are the hunters now, let's see when he will switch again but I think you won't see MrX in the new 190...

 

My biggest total on german planes on WoL : 10

My biggest total on russian planes on WoL : 8

and what ?

 

If the devs tried to balance the game (like in RoF) but unlike what they said, they did succeed.

 

Of course Asgar, this patch introduced the Ju-88 but it's not enough to explain the beginning gap between russian and german airkills. There is not so many Ju-88 and peoples who flew He-111 just take the new plane instead

Edited April 3, 2016 by 64sTomio

[Turban]

Even considering he switched side, the result is still the same, the russians will get more kills than the germans with this version cos no one will fly the 190 soon...

Btw, i suspect he switched because german side is crap now, russians are the hunters now, let's see when he will switch again but I think you won't see MrX in the new 190...

 

My biggest total on german planes on WoL : 10

My biggest total on russian planes on WoL : 8

and what ?

 

If the devs tried to balance the game (like in RoF) but unlike what they said, they did succeed.

 

Of course Asgar, this patch introduced the Ju-88 but it's not enough to explain the beginning gap between russian and german airkills. There is not so many Ju-88 and peoples who flew He-111 just take the new plane instead

 

 

Not here to argue about WoL stats so I'll stop after that.

 

You came here claiming Yak 1 had turned into Yak 3, saying "look at the russian kills !!" 

 

I explained that it's a false statement. The fact Mk MrX switched side has a huge impact on numbers.

Do people fly the A3 less ? I don't know. Top A3 pilots are still flying it. 

 

And if people fly it less, does that mean as a fact that the devs are wrong about the A3 ?  No . Of course not. High popularity of a plane doesn't mean it's accurately modeled. 

[GridiroN]

Blue curve is how it rolls in BoS, and purple curve is how it should roll, more or less.

 

I'm unsure why the F4 and F2 have such different curves considering the F4 is just an F2 with a upgraded engine, but nevertheless, the graph suggests the LaGG is radically superior at realistic combat speeds. It also suggests the FW190 is also much more maneuvrable which is currently is not, so I'm not sure this graph can be trusted. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by GridiroN

[Dr_Molenbeek]

I'm unsure why the F4 and F2 have such different curves considering the F4 is just an F2 with a upgraded engine, but nevertheless, the graph suggests the LaGG is radically superior at realistic combat speeds. It also suggests the FW190 is also much more maneuvrable which is currently is not, so I'm not sure this graph can be trusted. 

 

Bf 109F-2 purple curve is not from the BoM F-2, but from real data.

[mb339pan]

after patch a lot of idiots on the german side:
the cap to be defended no German plane, no allies, the only allies came to my tail at 6, It seems to be back to originated with very well organized Russians and the Germans flying to fuck, it is unacceptable not to have allied planes on our cap to be defended

 

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Edited April 4, 2016 by BlackSix

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Look turban you don't fly the 190 if you don't have it, correct ? So you can't realize the following :

Before the patch, the Yak couldn't catch escaping 190 so easily, after the patch it does all the time

Also i'm not alone saying this. His ability to escape most of situations totally disappeared

 

Top A3 pilots will still fly it of course. They will try to handle this "new" plane, it's their favourite but they won't be efficient like before. Impossible cos you get chased all the time.

Edited April 3, 2016 by 64sTomio

[MasterBaiter]

 

Wings of Liberty server - Statistics of shotdown aircraft

Months -  Number of Russian victories - Number of German victories

 

APRIL (as of now in progress) 946 - 871

March : 8150 - 10350

February : 7494 - 8934

January : 9188 - 11826

 

> What happened ? March 31st patch

 

 

 

LoL Turban. What do you do here.

 

Mr.X switched side, but still the 190 is [Edited] atm

Edited April 5, 2016 by Bearcat
Language

[GridiroN]

Blue curve is how it rolls in BoS, and purple curve is how it should roll, more or less.

 

The F4 curve is the F4 from the game then I imagine, so the question becomes are the rest of the curves from the real data? If the F2's curve is real, and the other curves are real, but the F4 is from the game, that would suggest that the 109's should be the worst front line fighters in the game, barring the i16, P40, and MC202 which had the same DB series engine. 

 

Do you believe this to be historically accurate?

[Dr_Molenbeek]

The F4 curve is the F4 from the game then I imagine, so the question becomes are the rest of the curves from the real data? If the F2's curve is real, and the other curves are real, but the F4 is from the game, that would suggest that the 109's should be the worst front line fighters in the game, barring the i16, P40, and MC202 which had the same DB series engine. 

 

Do you believe this to be historically accurate?

 

No, they are all from ingame except the F-2 curve.

 

I should have specified that from the start.

[SR-F_Winger]

I wrote this in the FM thread and i copy it here since i feel it also belongs here:

My subjective impression: I got some more time in it now and the thing behaves just a unpleasant as it did in the very early days when it was commonly referred to as "the flying brick'".

I really dont get it. Why do they fix one thing and mess up the other at the same time. Comon devs. Cant you just make this plane enjoyable to fly? I mean there are lots and lots of your customers that just want a Focke thats an AWESOME plane. Not uber. Just awesome and pleasantly to fly. A plane that feels like the pülane we all read and heard so much about. Its really NOT FUNNY anymore. What we have now is the flying brick again. I feel slapped in the face. I expect the thing to improove and what we get is the mess we already had. This mess can now climb a tad better but its still.........a mess.

[Turban]

I think they need to remove the stall on the Mig 3. That thing stalls all the time especially if your rudder game is not on point.

It's really unacceptable ... I'm a customer and I want to have fun..

 

 

/jk

Edited April 3, 2016 by Turban

[GridiroN]

No, they are all from ingame except the F-2 curve.

 

I should have specified that from the start.

 

It would seem possible than that perhaps all planes are overperforming vs what they were really capable of.

 

Or, perhaps real pilots were somewhat more conservative on the wacky things they try to pull off in real flight considering stalling/losing control = death, not respawning :/ hehe. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by GridiroN

[Saurer]

It would seem possible than that perhaps all planes are overperforming. 

 

Or, perhaps real pilots were someone more conservative on the wacky things they try to pull off in real flight considering stalling/losing control = death, not respawning :/ hehe. 

 

The F-2 curve is with a constant force of 50 pounds if i see that correct, so could it be that it is about how strong the pilot ingame is and how much the roll rate can be improved by pure force on the stick?

[GridiroN]

The F-2 curve is with a constant force of 50 pounds if i see that correct, so could it be that it is about how strong the pilot ingame is and how much the roll rate can be improved by pure force on the stick?

 

If i'm not mistaken, the Messerschmitt was known for having a very sensitive flight stick, so I doubt that would be much of a factor on BF planes, although I believe it was a big factor on Russian planes. That could possibly be an issue. I don't know if 1C has any in-game modelling of a pilot's strength, or if they just allow the plane to operate at 100% of it's control capabilities at all times as if strength was not a factor. 

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I feel when you weigh all things, the lagg is the best Russian fighter. It rolls better than the yak, dives better than the yak, rock solid gun platform, 23m can make 1000m shots look easy, can bring home in pieces, and one round connecting has brought down many 109s. I have had my turns on all the Russian planes but always return to the lagg. Love when 190s think they are safe at 1000 meters and fly nice and straight.

+1 Been a big fan of the Lagg since day one.

[NooneYouKnow]

If the 190 is correct now, why were the British so concerned when it made its appearance on the western front? A couple of Hurricanes and a Gladiator could have decimated the entire deployment of 190s if this new flight model is to be believed. Can't turn, can't run, can maybe climb a couple of feet per minute faster. Something doesn't smell right. A highly trained and combat experienced RAF wouldn't get concerned over nothing. Sorry, I would desert if I was assigned this piece of [Edited].

 

IMO of course.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Bearcat
Language