Fw190 - What have they done ?!?

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

It doesn't outrun anymore anything even with 2 cannons...

Yak, MiG stayed behind me at shooting range for minutes even after 700 km/h dive

 

I understand they did get new data but i never thought a plane can change so much with a single patch...

All the previous 190 FM's were crap then and far from reality according this new version ? I don't think so

 

It's not a 190, it's a Bloch 152 now

 

18. Claiming that FM is incorrect without the required proof and starting a flame thread based on such claim is prohibited.

The form for an FM claim consists of:

• short but consistent description of the claim;
• link to a reference and to a specific part of such reference that describes correct behaviour of a disputed element/situation;
• game track record and the list of conditions used to recreate disputed element/situation.

Exception to this rule: FM discussion

 

Not following this form in its entirety will result in locking (locking and deleting) such thread and also in the following:

 

First offense - 7 days ban on entry

[Willy__]

Aaaaaaaaaaand the 190 is a flying brick again... 

[Finkeren]

Funny. I tried out the 190 last night and didn't find any appreciable difference in handling or performance.

 

Subjective experience is highly unreliable. Tests will have to be done to show if anything has truly changed.

[Livai]

 

 

It doesn't outrun anymore anything even with 2 cannons... Yak, MiG stayed behind me at shooting range for minutes even after 700 km/h dive

 

1st April

[jaydee]

1st April

 

Especially with Cannons.

[Trooper117]

Yes, but the cannons didn't get the new fm changes....

[Trinkof]

It doesn't outrun anymore anything even with 2 cannons...

Yak, MiG stayed behind me at shooting range for minutes even after 700 km/h dive

 

I understand they did get new data but i never thought a plane can change so much with a single patch...

All the previous 190 FM's were crap then and far from reality according this new version ? I don't think so

 

It's not a 190, it's a Bloch 152 now

Yeah mig can go up to 750 km.h in a dive, this did not changed

 

And from what I tested, top speed did not changed .... nor the mig top speed

Edited April 2, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[Livai]

The big mistake what you can do with a Fw-190 is the enemy get close to you. It take some time to gain distance between you and the enemy. To dive away works very good with the Fw-190 if you reach above 600km/h and start a hard turn. There is no enemy plane that can follow your turn at this speed. The point is that he did something wrong. No screenshot no video but a few words that there is something wrong.... LoL

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Problem is there are people who think that diving away from an enemy who's coming on you with a energy advantage, in your Fw 190, is something you can do easily, by turning off your brain, because "i'm a 190 after all", and that is no true.

 

Look at this thread i made months ago: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/17423-600kmh-dive-test/

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

I dove cos i was forced despite being already at full speed. Usually i'm not

 

The point is that he did something wrong. No screenshot no video but a few words that there is something wrong.... LoL

I fly all variants of 190 for more than 10 years on few sims so i know a little about it^^

Many complains about the flying brick, i don't as long you can outrun nearly everything

 

 

 

@ Ze Hairy : Do they still have energy advantage after 3/4 mn chase ?

[SR-F_Winger]

We just made some subjective paralell flight tests.

Climb up to 5k height, combat power in the 190 and the YAK 1 max revs full power the YAK climbs just as fast. Almost no diffrence. Climbspeed was not below 300kph.

Tried with 350 kph climbspeed, same outcome.

In a shallow dive the 190 cant flee from a YAK-1. It gains distance but we talk like 30m in 5 minutes (FW flying with emergeny power). Strange since the IAS in FW was above 760 km/h and the IAS of YAK was around 700 km/h. YAK pilot said his stick started shjaking slightly at that speed. But no sign of desintegration. And guess what happens when you try to turn:) (not saying thats not OK).

Over all one can say the YAK-1 performs as good as the FW190 A3 in BOS regarding Climb, and dive. At least in our manual test. Marginal diffrences. Rella marginal

Well, what should i say. I think thats NOT OK:P

You?

Edited April 2, 2016 by StG2_Winger

[VBF-12_Snake9]

That was a lagg chased and shot you down and then you bitched, because it was me. The lagg is clearly too good of plane. Lol

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

We just made some subjective paralell flight tests.

Up to 5k combat power 190 the YAK 1 clibs just as fast. Almost no diffrence. Climbspeed was not below 300kph.

Tried with 350 kph climbspeed, same outcome.

In a shallow dive the 190 cant flee from a YAK-1. And guess what happens whyn you try to turn:) (not saying thats not OK).

Over all one can say the YAK-1 performs as good as the FW190 A3 in BOS. At least in our manual test.

Well, what should i say. I think thats NOT OK:P

You?

 

Considering the Yak-1 was a zippy aircraft with good overall performance, why the surprise? You can probably drive away from an Il-2, but with aircraft that perform similarly those 20 extra km/h at maximum speed aren't worth a penny within guns range.

 

For the record, as per DD123 the Yak-1 should outclimb the Fw-190 up until 6000m, with the difference being the most pronounced at 3000m.

[SR-F_Winger]

Considering the Yak-1 was a zippy aircraft with good overall performance, why the surprise? You can probably drive away from an Il-2, but with aircraft that perform similarly those 20 extra km/h at maximum speed aren't worth a penny within guns range.

 

For the record, as per DD123 the Yak-1 should outclimb the Fw-190 up until 6000m, with the difference being the most pronounced at 3000m.

Possible it does outclimb. When trying to maintain 300 kph the climbperformance is pretty close regarding our test.

Its no surprise. Has always been like that. And will always be. Just wanted to share the outcome of our test and my opinion about that. Not that anyone cares about it:P And i dont mind that:)

Edited April 2, 2016 by StG2_Winger

[DD_Arthur]

Its not speed or climb, its what it now does when trying to manoeuvre!  Oh dear.

[Finkeren]

Its not speed or climb, its what it now does when trying to manoeuvre! Oh dear.

Yes, the stall speed was raised slightly in the update to make it better correspond to the data available, which means that if you were used to riding the 190 at the edge of its flight envelope prior to the update, you'll propably find yourself stalling all over the place for a short while as you're getting used to the new thresholds.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Considering the Yak-1 was a zippy aircraft with good overall performance, why the surprise? You can probably drive away from an Il-2, but with aircraft that perform similarly those 20 extra km/h at maximum speed aren't worth a penny within guns range.

 

For the record, as per DD123 the Yak-1 should outclimb the Fw-190 up until 6000m, with the difference being the most pronounced at 3000m.

 

Sources will tell you that Yak1b/S69-1XX and 190-A3 at combat rating will need the exact same time to 5000 (5.5-6 min). Happy if that's the case now in game as well. Not saying anything about the update though, didn't test it so far, but looking forward to

[MadisonV44]

Don't matter the speed itself, this new FM accentuate the vicious and unpredictable "stalling" reaction of the FW, even >300 km/h 

It has been greatly improved in the previous patches (but still vicious) but now it's a pain to fly. I loved this plane so much, now I hate it more and more at each sorties.   

[Y-29.Silky]

That was a lagg chased and shot you down and then you bitched, because it was me. The lagg is clearly too good of plane. Lol

This explains everything. We never get the full story and people jump straight to the FM.

 

The Lagg can out dive everything besides a Peshka it seems. Which is why I always take it to 6000m. I once dove to.the deck and tried to run away from a Lagg in my G-2. The Lagg, out of ammo, casually caught up to me and nudged my wings folding me over to the ground like it was an everyday occurrence.

 

Lagg: Master Race

Edited April 2, 2016 by Y-29.Silky

[SR-F_Winger]

This explains everything. We never get the full story and people jump straight to the FM.

 

The Lagg can out dive everything besides a Peshka it seems. Which is why I always take it to 6000m. I once dove to.the deck and tried to run away from a Lagg in my G-2. The Lagg, out of ammo, casually caught up to me and nudged my wings folding me over to the ground like it was an everyday occurrence.

 

Lagg: Master Race

ist the lagg supposed to be the worst plane at all in this scenario?

So whats going wrong here?

[Asgar]

190 is fine. i just flew it for 40 minutes. there is nothing wrong with it

[MadisonV44]

Happy for you Asgar. So if you flew 40 minutes the FW ... and everything is fine so we can close this thread.

Very assertive for a man flying most a the blue plane except the FW ! 

[Willy__]

 

 

For the record, as per DD123 the Yak-1 should outclimb the Fw-190 up until 6000m, with the difference being the most pronounced at 3000m.

 

 

So what ? Its been that way since the day the 190 got released. 

 

The 190 FM is far from perfect, but IMHO, the last fm revision was better. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Just a note, that's all From my interpretation Winger found it weird that the Yak-1 could keep up, I figured the information was worth sharing.

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

190 is fine. i just flew it for 40 minutes. there is nothing wrong with it

Are u paid to write such comments ? There is huge difference with before...

 

It was a great hunter before, now you are being hunted...

Edited April 3, 2016 by 64sTomio

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I've flown it for about 90 minutes now since the patch. Prior to that, I'd flown it almost exclusively through numerous patches until about two month ago.

 

The elevator effectiveness is reduced at very high speeds. This is the only painfully obvious change and relates mostly to high speed maneuvering. I haven't tried to knife fight in her yet and I'm not that great at TNB anyway.

 

The climb rate seems to be improved down on the deck slightly as well. She gets off the ground much better and, while not a 109, gets up to 2k a little quicker by my calibrated seat of the pants measuring device. I haven't tested it for anything above 3000m yet. In all honesty, all of this is just as subjective as the next guy's opinion as I do not have the background to do technical/hardcore testing.

 

As I stated in another thread; the stall speed, dirty, on touchdown is about five kph higher than it used to be at around 180-183 kph. I usually stalled her onto the runway at 178 depending on my approach angle and flare. This increase may also be due to slightly higher remaining fuel because all of my flights were much shorter than normal as well.

 

In combat the elevator effectiveness is obvious in that the turns and yo-yo's are much wider now even at moderately high speeds. The pullout from a dive is a little more like the 109 at very high speed now. The ground can feel like it is coming at you uncomfortably fast. You have to stay well ahead of the aircraft in a high speed dive but she runs like a scalded cat when you point her toward the ground. 

 

I haven't stalled her except once and that was on purpose. She rolled over and I had to break the inverted stall with the unique Fw method - you have to pull the stick initially rather than push it  because you are upside down. This is much harder than any of the other BOS aircraft and counter intuitive to even a student pilot. She comes out of a simple stall just as any other AC. If you get into an inverted stall in this AC at low level, however, it is usually fatal.

 

Outside of that, and it will take some time to modify pilot behavior, the Fw is largely unchanged. You have always needed to handle her with a gentler touch in this game. You will have to plan just a touch better in your attacks and be ever so slightly farther ahead of the AC while maneuvering.I have hundreds of hours in this simulated AC in BOS/BOM. There were NO RADICAL changes to any of the FM's.

 

If you are caught out in the Fw it is likely a tactical mistake much more than a borked AC. We can, however, talk tactics elsewhere.

 

I fly her in a fighter configuration with all four cannon and 50 percent fuel FWIW.

 

Small print: This is not a paid endorsement by me or any of the actors appearing with me. I'm not a professional pilot but sometimes I like to dress up like one.

Edited April 2, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Asgar]

Happy for you Asgar. So if you flew 40 minutes the FW ... and everything is fine so we can close this thread.

Very assertive for a man flying most a the blue plane except the FW ! 

[Edited] is your problem? get grip of yourself and learn to fly the plane instead of wasting time attacking people on the forum

Edited April 5, 2016 by Bearcat
Language

[LittleJP]

Here's a quick comparison

 

 

This is before the patch

 

 

Here's after. Look how quickly the stall kicks in, when I could pull the same split S without issue previously.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

ist the lagg supposed to be the worst plane at all in this scenario?

So whats going wrong here?

I feel when you weigh all things, the lagg is the best Russian fighter. It rolls better than the yak, dives better than the yak, rock solid gun platform, 23m can make 1000m shots look easy, can bring home in pieces, and one round connecting has brought down many 109s. I have had my turns on all the Russian planes but always return to the lagg. Love when 190s think they are safe at 1000 meters and fly nice and straight.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Seems ok to me, I can't see much difference from before. High speed turns are still amazing but the high speed stalls are still a nightmare as they should be.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Spent a little time with the FW190 tonight and my feelings are similar to many of the other commenters. The stall comes on a little more quickly and the elevator feels less effective, especially at higher speeds, than before. It'll take a bit of adjustment to get it right and on track again.

 

RE: Lagg-3 performance - while reputation suggests that the LaGG-3 was a useless and hopelessly outclassed fighter, those comments usually pertain to the ealier series. The Series 29 that we have is much more refined than the ealier models. It's still not a top fighter but firepower, roll, and dive are strengths to a point. Treat it with respect as you should any opponent.

[Finkeren]

ist the lagg supposed to be the worst plane at all in this scenario?

So whats going wrong here?

Nah. You got that wrong.

 

The P-40 is far worse, both on paper and in the sim.

[Finkeren]

I've flown it for about 90 minutes now since the patch.

-snip-

 

Thank you for this insight Murf

 

It seems that the overall experience is divided between those who seldom fly the plane, who hardly notice any difference at all and the full-time 190-jocks who seem to believe that their favourite fighter is now a flying brick and completely useless.

 

This would suggest, that the overall change in stall behavior is slight but noticable to those who are used to flying the Würger at the edge of the envelope, have many of the maneuvers down to almost muscle memory and who now stall all over the place when trying to fly like before. You, who have always flown the 190 quite carefully and deliberate propably isn't as badly burned by the change.

 

As you said: There will be a period of adjusting, until people find a new balance flying the plane. In the meantime we'll propably see more threads like this.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

As I said in the post, I don't knife fight in the thing or ride the stall to the bleeding edge with any regularity. I can ride the buffet and get into blackout on occasion but it is (almost) always with intent. That is to say I fly into those situations when the gun solution requires it only after a proper set up. I don't do that routinely on every pass. So, my mileage may vary.

 

There was a time when I was approaching expert in the thing but I'm a little more rounded as a Luftie now. I never have the problems in turn fights or being pursued because I manage my energy to a fault. To wit: I generally know when to disengage and/or run. If you are caught out in any German AC in this game it is due to a tactical error at or before the merge. If I am caught it is usually because I stayed in a 1v1 with another AC even after my brain said, "this is too long."

 

If your 190 is EVER below 330 kph for anything other than an extending climb (pitch for 300) you are doing it wrong.

 

According to DD 123 I will probably have to re-evaluate my climbs through 3000-6000m again but I doubt any of my other escape/set-up tactics will need to be altered below those altitudes. I have never lost a pure footrace in level flight or an extending climb, from co-E, to a Russian AC in clean configuration since EA. Not even once.

 

Conserve your WEP for these situations. You will rarely find me above 2400 rpm in the Fw unless I am running for my life or climbing to chase a Pe2 at altitude.

 

I have been caught on the deck a couple of times when I was low and slow but that is a tactical error on my part and always starting at a significant E disadvantage. This is, again, in the four gun fighter configuration. Jabo with an ETC rack and 15 kph penalty is another story.

 

You did get me off the departure end once, Fink!  

 

~S

Edited April 3, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Moreover, it's all the Luftwaffe fighters which have been hampered by something

 

Since 3 days, the Yak-1 looks like a Yak-3 to me and russian fighters gets more kills than german ones on WoL and it's not a coincidence

[MasterBaiter]

190's new FM is garbage... It's not worth flying it anymore...

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Oh good lord......

[MadisonV44]

wtf is your problem? get grip of yourself and learn to fly the plane instead of wasting time attacking people on the forum

 

Can you watch your language Asgar. Where do you see a personal offence in my words ? Can you just understand that people specialized in flying a certain kind plane can share their opinion ? For them (flying mostly the FW), the FM and global behavior changed drastically (regressing in my opinion, as it was quite good in the previous versions) and it's opponent changed also, reducing the gap : the FW was a great hunter, not so easy to master, but a great hunter when flown by squads in schwarm formation, now it became more and more apathetic and vicious and becomes a prey.  We had a pretty good balance a few patch  ago. Now its gone.

 

In addition, constant change of FM are boring, re-learning at every patch the new limits of a plane does not create a dynamic, even more when regressing at each patch when you are on the wrong side. 

 

PS: OK I will try to fly my plane ... thank you for this great piece of advice !

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Well, they increased the climb rate (correct), but they also increased the stall speed (not correct).

 

So the plane is better AND worse than before.

[Turban]

The claims that are made in this thread.....


How can they expect to be taken seriously after that...