Oculus rift consumer version... - It's out!

[Freycinet]

Nice, thorough review of the the Oculus rift consumer version: http://www.roadtovr.com/oculus-rift-review-prologue-to-a-new-reality/

 

- So, when will we first hear about flight sims on the OR consumer version? - Can't wait! 

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

As soon IL-2 goes 64bit I might get an OR but atm we need to wait a little bit longer

[SR-F_Winger]

Got my "Prepare for shipping" mail yesterday.

As soon as i can i will try out DCS and see if the resolution is sufficient for flightsims.

IMHO Flightsims are the most critical application regarding the still existant screensoor effect. If the optimisations oculus made to reduce the effect where enough or not to make out very small contacts - we will know it soon.

Edited March 31, 2016 by StG2_Winger

[stiboo]

 

Nice, thorough review of the the Oculus rift consumer version: http://www.roadtovr....-a-new-reality/

 

Thanks,

 

The Oculus Rift with flightsims is the one thing that gets me excited!

[Jade_Monkey]

As soon IL-2 goes 64bit I might get an OR but atm we need to wait a little bit longer

Supposedly we would alse need an upgrade to DX11, which is the rift's minimum requirement.

 

So 64 bit is a very nice step in that direction but im not sure if that alone will make BOS Oculus compatible.

[SAG]

I read/heard somwhere that making out distant contacts on EVE valkirie was kind of difficult, i still don think its worse than the 10km view distance we have for planes though

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

As soon IL-2 goes 64bit I might get an OR but atm we need to wait a little bit longer

 

It took a whole 6 hours from this statement

[SR-F_Winger]

I get mine today - YAY:)

[Beazil]

I get mine today - YAY:)

Share your experience!

[seafireliv]

So how is this better than just using TrackIr? Probably a dumb question, but it needs to be gold before I get excited.

Edited April 2, 2016 by seafireliv

[taildraggernut]

So how is this better than just using TrackIr? Probably a dumb question, but it needs to be gold before I get excited.

 

It's better than TrackIR because it's like using your neck and eyes in real life, you turn your head left to look left instead of turning your head left a little to look behind you and keeping your eyes fixed on a screen in front of you.

 

Oh and it's full 3d just like vision in real life, you really need to try it and then you will understand.

Edited April 2, 2016 by taildraggernut

[JG27_Chivas]

So how is this better than just using TrackIr? Probably a dumb question, but it needs to be gold before I get excited.

 

Its not only a full motion tracker, but includes a 3D Monitor, and very good headphones/mic, Its also very cheap when you figure out what a 3D monitor, TrackIR, Bundled Software, Wireless Xbox controller, and good Headphones would cost.   It takes people from looking at the world on a box in their room, and immerses them in whatever world the software provides.   TrackIR was a great for its time, but its time is coming to a close..

Edited April 2, 2016 by JG27_Chivas

[SharpeXB]

So how is this better than just using TrackIr? Probably a dumb question, but it needs to be gold before I get excited.

The difference between a monitor/TrackIR and VR, as it concerns flight sims. Is that on a monitor you can replicate 20/20 eyesight by just having a zoom view command. VR headsets are set at a fixed resolution. The resolution of this first gen of VR sets (1200p) is IMO too low to make them useable with a realistic combat flight sim game. But given time I expect them to improve. A VR set is going to have to deliver literal 20/20 eyesight before it can be really functional in a game like this. DCS supports VR but it also had to add a "model enlargement" feature to make all the air and ground targets the size of battleships in order for the VR players to be able to see them. Edited April 2, 2016 by SharpeXB

[JG27_Chivas]

The difference between a monitor/TrackIR and VR, as it concerns flight sims. Is that on a monitor you can replicate 20/20 eyesight by just having a zoom view command. VR headsets are set at a fixed resolution. The resolution of this first gen of VR sets (1200p) is IMO too low to make them useable with a realistic combat flight sim game. But given time I expect them to improve. A VR set is going to have to deliver literal 20/20 eyesight before it can be really functional in a game like this. DCS supports VR but it also had to add a "model enlargement" feature to make all the air and ground targets the size of battleships in order for the VR players to be able to see them.

There is no doubt that the resolution was too low in the prototypes, but we are not sure its low in the consumer versions yet.  We should know in the coming weeks as flight simmers receive their Rift and Vive headsets.

 

The main difference between a Monitor/TrackIR and a VR headset is that once people try a flight sim in VR most no longer have much interest in flying with a Monitor/TrackIR.   There probably will be some problems with spotting distant aircraft, but since atleast ninety percent of flight simmers use Icons, it will be a non issue for them.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

There is no doubt that the resolution was too low in the prototypes, but we are not sure its low in the consumer versions yet.  We should know in the coming weeks as flight simmers receive their Rift and Vive headsets.

 

The main difference between a Monitor/TrackIR and a VR headset is that once people try a flight sim in VR most no longer have much interest in flying with a Monitor/TrackIR.   There probably will be some problems with spotting distant aircraft, but since atleast ninety percent of flight simmers use Icons, it will be a non issue for them.

 

+ i think that future flight sims in general will build their Sim around VR, because they know what potential there is. They will adress the "spotting" issue in any way, model enlargement or other "tricks" to make contacts able to see in a realistic distance. I mean same thing happend in flight sims the last 20 years before the very newest graphics generation. 1946 for example. Make this game VR ready (with a mod maybe), and it would blow away anything else. Spotting wouldn't be an issue (due to the 1-pixel appearence at ~30km), and the "old" graphics are just perfect for first VR generation

[SharpeXB]

but since atleast ninety percent of flight simmers use Icons, it will be a non issue for them.

Real flight simming only begins when you turn off the icons.

 

The main difference between a Monitor/TrackIR and a VR headset is that once people try a flight sim in VR most no longer have much interest in flying with a Monitor/TrackIR.

Well the major difference between the two is that the inherent feature of VR is that it's all encompassing. That can be good or bad depending on what sort of environment you game in. For example you need to keep one eye on the family or spouse, dog etc. in VR you're involved totally. That might not work sometimes.

 

You also can't overlook the hardware requirement to run VR, most players won't meet those specs

 

They will adress the "spotting" issue in any way, model enlargement or other "tricks" to make contacts able to see in a realistic distance.

DCS is trying this now and the problem is that it's considered a cheat on the full real servers, the only ones that get good attendance anyways. So it's switched off.

VR in DCS needs the largest setting at at that level targets can be seen for tens of miles. The result is completely unrealistic. So once again none of the good servers have it enabled.

Edited April 3, 2016 by SharpeXB

[seafireliv]

Ok...Thanks for all that, chaps. Sounds gold. But it still seems in earky days yet, so I will watch and wait.

[JG27_Chivas]

Real flight simming only begins when you turn off the icons.

 

Well the major difference between the two is that the inherent feature of VR is that it's all encompassing. That can be good or bad depending on what sort of environment you game in. For example you need to keep one eye on the family or spouse, dog etc. in VR you're involved totally. That might not work sometimes.

 

You also can't overlook the hardware requirement to run VR, most players won't meet those specs

 

DCS is trying this now and the problem is that it's considered a cheat on the full real servers, the only ones that get good attendance anyways. So it's switched off.

VR in DCS needs the largest setting at at that level targets can be seen for tens of miles. The result is completely unrealistic. So once again none of the good servers have it enabled.

 

Your right VR will have issues, but none of them are VR killers.

 

a. I don't use ICONs, but that won't stop VR.

 

b. VR doesn't demand 24/7 use.  Use it when you don't have any other responsibilities

 

c. VR adoption is very expensive, but billions are being spent on its development with all investors fully understanding it will be quite awhile before  most people will be able to afford it.

 

d. people will find the settings they like for VR and join servers that accommodate those setting.  Having settings people want for VR won't make that server one of the bad ones.

 

IMHO a couple of the main impediments to VR has been motion sickness, and resolution.  The resolution of the first consumer versions appear to be just good enough, and will undoubtable improve with each new generation.  I'm way to old to wait for the next generation and will enjoy what VR has to offer with the first generation.   Many of the motion sickness causing issues have been addressed with new tech used in the first generation of headsets, but its also closely tied to the type of software being run and how susceptible the individual is.   There is now new tech being created as we speak that sends signals to the inner ear to fool the person into actually thinking he's moving, and that new tech is likely to be in the next generation of headsets, and/or as stand alone hardware.  Even this is unlikely to end the motion sickness problem, but again it won't be a deal breaker.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

DCS is trying this now and the problem is that it's considered a cheat on the full real servers, the only ones that get good attendance anyways. So it's switched off. VR in DCS needs the largest setting at at that level targets can be seen for tens of miles. The result is completely unrealistic. So once again none of the good servers have it enabled.

So what?

Does that have anything to do with VR? No it doesn't.

Is it possible, to check if anyone uses VR, and if he is allowed to use enlargement, if not he is not allowed? Yes, this is also possible with tools. Doesn't have anything to do with cheating, when using VR.

Is it possible to implement a better model enlargement for VR then DCS currently? Yes, most definitely. DCS changes their model enlargement in pretty much every update, they will need a while to get it right.

Seriously, if you desperately want to bring up arguments against VR, you have to get better ones. The one's you described are just some barriers in people's heads.

 

It's no problem what so ever to solve the "spotting issue" for VR. After all, there were also flight sims back in the 90s, with 640x480 screens. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[SharpeXB]

I am not against VR at all. I'm sure it will be really incredible some day. There are currently quite a few hurtles though.

The model enlargement issue is a subject for another forum and has already been discussed to death over there. I would prefer never seeing anything like that added for BoS. It creates more problems than it solves. BoS already does an excellent job of allowing the player to see detail in the game without resorting to anything that awkward.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I am not against VR at all. I'm sure it will be really incredible some day. There are currently quite a few hurtles though.

The model enlargement issue is a subject for another forum and has already been discussed to death over there. I would prefer never seeing anything like that added for BoS. It creates more problems than it solves. BoS already does an excellent job of allowing the player to see detail in the game without resorting to anything that awkward.

 

It doesn't even have to be enlargement. It's enough when you see a pixel for a plane at a certain distance - like it is in 1946 and Cliffs. With VR (at least with the new Oculus CV1) you could spot that pixel (or make it 4) without zooming in. I know quite some people who enjoy DCS with the Oculus DK2, and that's way worse when it comes to screen then the CV. So i am pretty sure you can enjoy flight sims already - all the issues will just get better in the future. So far i would also prefer space or race sim over flight sim. But i hope in a year or two, flight sims are properly ready for VR, and the other way round. 

[Venom]

Three years from now we will totally laugh about this dicussion, because most of us will hardly remember how it was "flying" non-VR - using a truly expensive clumsy thing called Track-IR (for the record: the head tracking of the Oculus DK1 has already been much more precise than any generation of Track-IR!). With foveated rendering on 4k and 8k screens a pilot can (again) read out any gauge and make out the tiniest spots in the distance. On non-HOTAS warbirds we will probably use our hands and fingers to switch cockpit levers.

You don't believe in that? Then start counting down the days - right now.

[Dakpilot]

While I agree in principle...3 years from now? 8K screens....I think you are way off   I shan't be counting the days just yet

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[SharpeXB]

Careful with the optimism. VR could go the way of 3D home video which died because people don't like wearing goggles.

3D gaming died as well

http://vr-zone.com/articles/happened-3d-gaming/75852.html

The fact that VR immerses you totally in your games is both a positive and a negative.

 

This was posted on the same topic over on RoF. It's interesting, the issues involved in trying to adapt VR. The big money games today are story driven 1st person action games which don't lend themselves to VR quite so well. Plus they sell mainly on consoles that lack the power for a good VR experience.

http://www.krillbite.com/2015/09/21/we-are-stopping-vr-development-here-is-why-2/

Edited April 5, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Rjel]

I don't think VR will become popular until the device is as simple and compact as putting on a pair of glasses or better, a pair of contacts. It'll be one of those GeeWhiz things for a while until the units are more compact and more advanced. I'd bet we're looking at a minimum of 5-10 years.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Personally the full committment part can be a problem sometimes. When you need to keep track of other things (like people in the room, waiting for an important call/email through your telephone, etc.) this kind of thing becomes clumsy. The devices themselves seem awkward to put it very softly, the plus hardware requirements are pretty high and integration is coming slowly. Full immersion is really fun and I look forward to it, but I believe there is still a long way to go until these devices become mainstay. Not a long way in terms of time, but in terms of progress.

 

For that matter, monitor gaming will never quite die off because it's convenient, even if unflattering when compared to other options.

[JG27_Chivas]

The ONLY thing that's delaying VR is the cost of entry.  Just like most other major new tech.  3D home video, and 3D TV's is quite frankly a joke compared to the VR experience.  Not even worth talking about.  The vast majority of people who have tried using friends and families VR units say they want one.   Most of the naysayers are people who have never tried VR.

[JG27_Chivas]

Early reports are very good with the Oculus CV1 in DCS.  DCS just released SDK 1.3 with ATW support.  Users are now able to easily read gauges, and spot ground targets a couple of nautical miles away.  Also more importantly ATW Oculus software has removed judder when the frame rates go below 90fps.   We will need more info on users computer systems, and game setting. Some reports suggest that they were able to run DCS at frames significantly below 90fps, but more info needed.  That said some people liked DCS with the DK2, when I found it unplayable.  Although my IPD was way out of range for the DK2. 

[jaydee]

Early reports are very good with the Oculus CV1 in DCS.  DCS just released SDK 1.3 with ATW support.  Users are now able to easily read gauges, and spot ground targets a couple of nautical miles away.  Also more importantly ATW Oculus software has removed judder when the frame rates go below 90fps.   We will need more info on users computer systems, and game setting. Some reports suggest that they were able to run DCS at frames significantly below 90fps, but more info needed.  That said some people liked DCS with the DK2, when I found it unplayable.  Although my IPD was way out of range for the DK2. 

 

Hi Jim. ~S~. I have decided to hold off on VR for the moment. I planned my Pc Upgrade in two stages (Due to Budget constraints). First was Cpu/MB/ram and a Pcie Ssd.....Ive done that and I am minus $2000...But at least my PC "Core" is reasonably Modern for the next 2 years or so.

Second Upgrade stage was Graphics/Monitor or VR.... I normally jump on New Technology (Especially Graphics) with a "Gimme, Gimme Now attitude !

I have the same budget for stage 2 of my upgrade.

But I have put the Brakes on stage 2 of my upgrade now for a number of reasons.

(1) Nvidia is about to Release their latest GPU in June/July (roughly)....I want to see how good it is.

(2) Monitors have become amazing with Beautiful Eye-candy,Gsync/Free-Sync and The Best Visuals for me as a "Simmer"....This current VR is not going to Match the Quality I can get from a Great Monitor/Gpu combo.... $2000 will get me a great monitor and a New Gpu (I hope).

(3) VR is in its infancy. Its only going to get better....But Right Now, I don't think VR is Made for Flightsims and I don't think OUR Flightsims are ready for VR......Yet !

so I am holding off for a while.

 

Jim,I know you are "Keen" on VR so Keep us all posted with you Experiences .

j

[wtornado]

I am surprised about the privacy issue with OR  and the terms of use and binding contract that the software

runs and collects data even when the OR is not in use.

 

It collects body movement from flying sims to racing right up to watching porn with the head set on probably

for advertising and market reasons.

 

I find that quite amusing.

[JG27_Chivas]

Hi Jim. ~S~. I have decided to hold off on VR for the moment. I planned my Pc Upgrade in two stages (Due to Budget constraints). First was Cpu/MB/ram and a Pcie Ssd.....Ive done that and I am minus $2000...But at least my PC "Core" is reasonably Modern for the next 2 years or so.

Second Upgrade stage was Graphics/Monitor or VR.... I normally jump on New Technology (Especially Graphics) with a "Gimme, Gimme Now attitude !

I have the same budget for stage 2 of my upgrade.

But I have put the Brakes on stage 2 of my upgrade now for a number of reasons.

(1) Nvidia is about to Release their latest GPU in June/July (roughly)....I want to see how good it is.

(2) Monitors have become amazing with Beautiful Eye-candy,Gsync/Free-Sync and The Best Visuals for me as a "Simmer"....This current VR is not going to Match the Quality I can get from a Great Monitor/Gpu combo.... $2000 will get me a great monitor and a New Gpu (I hope).

(3) VR is in its infancy. Its only going to get better....But Right Now, I don't think VR is Made for Flightsims and I don't think OUR Flightsims are ready for VR......Yet !

so I am holding off for a while.

 

Jim,I know you are "Keen" on VR so Keep us all posted with you Experiences .

j

 

I understand your quandary, as usual being an early adopter is very expensive.  I just bought a GTX980TI that cost me over a thousand dollars Canadian.  I wanted to wait for the Pascal, but the Rift will arrive long before the Pascals arrive.  I hedged my bets a little by buying an EVGA graphics card that allows an upgrade path to the latest gpu's for the first three months you own the card.  Unfortunately the Pascal cards are likely to come out after those three months end.

 

I also had concerns that the resolution, and 90fps might be a no go for flight sims, but the new gpu runs COD much higher, even on the highest settings.   The resolution won't be optimal but early reports suggest that reading gauges and spotting distant objects is now possible. This along with Oculus ATW software that allows drops below 90fps while keeping smooth gameplay should make flight sim use quite possible.   Even with the early VR issues, I'm quite sure that people will prefer flying with the CV1,  than the best monitor setup possible.  The emersion is that good.

[Dakpilot]

I think a lot of people misunderstand what ATW does, it is very relevant to head movement and cures judder when moving your head and is very successful in this respect when FPS have dropped lower than optimal

 

But it does not cure or affect normal FPS drop with regards to stutter as experienced on a normal screen, this will still be present in Oculus, but the 'sick inducing' judder  experienced when moving ones head at non optimal FR is almost totally removed

 

If ATW was successful in allowing smooth gameplay in low FPS it would rather revolutionise all games and graphic cards..this is not the case, but it certainly would be great if it was! could be beneficial to TrackIR/headtracking software though?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[SCG_Neun]

I'm going to wait this out a bit and read the reviews on this, especially as it relates to CFS which is all I play anymore.  But it sure sounds promising.  Please keep us in the loop guys on what you think.

[Dave]

The ONLY thing that's delaying VR is the cost of entry.  Just like most other major new tech.  3D home video, and 3D TV's is quite frankly a joke compared to the VR experience.  Not even worth talking about.  The vast majority of people who have tried using friends and families VR units say they want one.   Most of the naysayers are people who have never tried VR.

Not the ONLY thing delaying it for me. I spent in excess of $15k on my game machine and would buy a VR headset instantly if the resolution was high enough for a comfortable prolonged gaming experience wherein I wasn't handicapped by not being able to spot targets at realistic visual range. When I used DK1 and DK2 I was very uninspired by "the future of gaming". There is no doubt it is improving gradually and I really hope plenty of people buy the Rift and its competitors so that the business case for continued development exists - I'm not knocking it, just pointing out that cost is not the limiting factor for many people like myself.

 

Incidentally, and while this would not stop me from buying a high fidelity Rift, VR introduces a whole host of new problems for simulators. I have explored the potential solutions for many of them for some time now (since the 90s) without having found completely satisfactory fixes. Just one example issue is not being able to see your hands or the simulated cockpit environment: where they diverge significantly from the game-simulated cockpit (i.e. you don't have a dedicated scale, accurate sim-pit for the only aircraft you will ever fly) it can be a major PITA.

 

Another is building a generic mock-cockpit capable of supporting multiple aircraft models - no tactile feedback.

 

Yet another is the lack of agreement between your other senses (e.g. inner ear and seat-of-pants) and eyes. Ironically, the more experienced you are at flying IRL the more disturbing the compelling visual experience of VR is to your brain. I simply don't have space in my room for a 6-DoF platform to try to compensate for this and even then washout filters can only go so far and they completely break down for sustained accelerations. Suspension of the sensory discord is easier when your peripheral vision is not providing you an immersive FOV - a major reason for having VR in the first place. I even considered a centrifuge-based platform which was the most promising design but cost-prohibitive for a private entity.

 

Yeah - this is a long way from discussion of VR now but I just wanted to point out that there are many other reasons for not grabbing a Rift today. I will likely buy one when the resolution improves about 4 to 8 fold. If BoS/BoM/BoK/BoA/Bo? still doesn't support VR headsets at that point I will stop playing.

[JG27_Chivas]

This is probably the best comparison your going to see between the Vive and Rift systems. Tested is probably on of the most respected review sites on the internet.
https://youtu.be/EBieKwa2ID0