Bf110E-2 FM vs P40E

[Venturi]

I flew the Bf110E-2 for the first time last night, after testing the P40E against the Bf109E-7 (and finding it very difficult against the AI on Veteran). As an aside, the P40E and Bf109E-7 should be roughly equivalent in performance. I certainly found that not to be the case.

 

I selected a 1-on-1 vs. P40E with the AI on Ace setting, at 1500m. 60% fuel for both and all standard except gave the P40 4x Brownings.

 

Several things.

1. Bf110E-2 is at least the equal, performance-wise, to the P40E as-is right now. In fact I would say the Bf110E-2 is actually better and perhaps over performing. Although the AI is not a difficult opponent for me usually when using roughly equivalent aircraft, I had less than the normal trouble shooting down every P40E spawned with the Bf110E-2 l, until I ran out of ammunition. I took no hits at any time.

 

2. The AI cannot fly the P40E effectively at all times. Besides the obvious continual pitch axis wobbling that all AI aircraft exemplify in horizontal banks in both this sim and ROF, the AI actually spun the P40E often when it decided to reverse direction of bank. I am including this observation as it may have some bearing on illustrating some possible deficiencies in the P40E's flight modeling.

 

Overall I would like to garner opinions of people who have flown both these types head-to-head in a 1v1. Although I love both planes, and have a soft spot for twin-engine fighters, I believe my observations may illustrate some relative disparity with the historical performance of these A/C, as they are currently modeled.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Venturi

[SR-F_Winger]

Bf110E-2 is at least the equal, performance-wise, to the P40E as-is right now. In fact I would say the Bf110E-2 is actually better and perhaps over performing

 

You cant be serious. If a 110 gets the first shot its the only way it survives a dogfight against a decent P40 pilot in a one on one co E/alt. And its good like that. After all its not a fighter but a destroyer.

 

EDIT: No flame intended thou. I have some time in the 110 and very little in the P40. But i encountered quite many P40s online so far. The P40 is a bad fighter. And it doesnt perform very well. But it IS a fighter. And performs muuuuuch better than a 110 in all aspects.

Edited March 30, 2016 by StG2_Winger

[Matt]

The AI is having huge problems flying planes with vicious stall charateristics, like the P-40 (190 being another example) and it's best planes with very benign stalls, like the E-7 or 110. A lower fuel load helps alot though.

 

At low altitude and as long as the P-40 can use emergency power, it's the better plane compared to the 110 overall. But when the P-40 is stuck to continous power vs. climb power on the Bf 110, performance is pretty close. The E-7 is easily the better plane and it outperforms the P-40 in basically everything. Even though top speed is comparable (the P-40 can of course be much faster, but only for a very short time and then it's slower than the E-7), with the non-emergency power limits, the E-7 can reach its top speeds faster and it's better capable of regaining energy after maneuvering and better at maneuvering in general.

[SR-F_Winger]

 

 

But when the P-40 is stuck to continous power vs. climb power on the Bf 110, performance is pretty close

interesting. Gonna try when i get the oportunity.

[Venturi]

I'd take a 110 over a P40 any day of the week, twice on Sunday. I'd win every day of the week, and twice on Sunday, too. I'd agree with your assessment if you meant how it SHOULD be, but that's certainly not the way it currently is.

 

Just out of curiousity I tried the opposite last night. I flew a P40 vs a 110. Not only was I not able to outperform the 110 in a dogfight, neither horizontally or vertically, but I also lost more E than him and ended up below him. No stalling. I ended up being shot down....

 

Try it for yourself.

 

You cant be serious. If a 110 gets the first shot its the only way it survives a dogfight against a decent P40 pilot in a one on one co E/alt. And its good like that. After all its not a fighter but a destroyer.

 

EDIT: No flame intended thou. I have some time in the 110 and very little in the P40. But i encountered quite many P40s online so far. The P40 is a bad fighter. And it doesnt perform very well. But it IS a fighter. And performs muuuuuch better than a 110 in all aspects.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Venturi

[Crump]

 

 

But when the P-40 is stuck to continous power vs. climb power on the Bf 110, performance is pretty close.

 

I have performance measurements of the Bf-110G-2.   The Bf-110C-1 German data also shows the 440kph TAS at sea level.

 

More powerful engines and it only does some 267 mph in level flight compared to the P-40E which was at 300 mph at sea level.   

 

P-40E at Military Power (1200bhp at 43.9"Hg at 3000rpm used by the RAAF)

 

 

Bf-110G2 at Steig U Kampfleistungen:

 

 

I would not want to be in a Bf-110 facing a P-40 in combat......

 

There is a reason why the Bf-110 was withdrawn from fighter mission roles. 

[Venturi]

Tell you what Crump, buy the game and go find out for yourself.

[Matt]

 

 

More powerful engines and it only does some 267 mph in level flight compared to the P-40E which was at 300 mph at sea level.   

 

Totally irrelevant to what you quoted, but i'll let you try to figure that out yourself.

[Crump]

Wow, try to help some folks and they still see nothing but sour grapes.

 

 

Totally irrelevant to what you quoted, but i'll let you try to figure that out yourself.

 

You completely screwed the pooch on what I said.

 

The facts I posted back up the assertion:

 

 

 

You cant be serious. If a 110 gets the first shot its the only way it survives a dogfight against a decent P40 pilot in a one on one co E/alt. And its good like that. After all its not a fighter but a destroyer.

 

Showing that Venturi observation is not how the historical relative performance should be.....

 

 

 

Bf110E-2 is at least the equal, performance-wise, to the P40E as-is right now.

 

 

And he is right to bring it to attention of others....

 

 

 

Tell you what Crump, buy the game and go find out for yourself.

 

 

And I do not need the game to see that....

 

[MiloMorai]

Here we go again.   Another looooong thread with Crump being right and all the rest of you being wrong.

[Crump]

Here we go again.   Another looooong thread with Crump being right and all the rest of you being wrong.

 

 

LMAO.  So even when I agree with the usual suspects, I am wrong.

 

[Trinkof]

Back to the topic, I had an engagement on the ded random two days ago, we were two p40 versus 3 110, everyone coming back from bomb run...

 

We were low, CO alt, probably co-E, and it was really tense...

 

We shot down a 110 and lost a p40. I had to disengage as I saw my p40 losing energy very quickly were 110 seemed to take the upper hand. Every turn I made seemed to make me loose so much altitude compared to the 110. I almost blew up my engine when escaping, and I suspect I was able to do so because the 110 let me go, one of the remaining was damaged.

 

Honestly : I would have trade their planes versus ours anytime

 

Edit : I strongly belive the 110 is better, because in the 110, you do not have to fight with your engine

Edited March 31, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[Matt]

 

 

You completely screwed the pooch on what I said.

 

Actually, that's exactly what you did, because i was comparing continuous (=rated) power with climb power and you're using a completely different comparison. Yes, the P-40 with military power is obviously much faster than the Bf 110 at climb power and guess what, that's also how it works in BoM. Problem is, that you can only make use of the military power for up to 5 minutes and the Bf 110 can also use a higher than climb power engine setting during that time, making your comparison irrelevant to what you quoted and tried to disprove and impractical in how a typical engagement in BoM would work out.

[Crump]

 

 

Actually, that's exactly what you did, because i was comparing continuous (=rated) power with climb power and you're using a completely different comparison.

 

I realize the power difference you noted.  If you look at the data I posted, the P-40 is significantly faster at rated power than the Bf-110 is at Combat Power....

In otherwords, At rated power for the P-40E vs Steig u Kampfleistung for the Bf-110.....

 

The P-40E is ~20mph faster and still holds a significant speed advantage.   They are not close, Matt.

[Venturi]

The 110 outperforms the P40 in "BoM" terms as is and is easier to fly to boot,

 

let alone the 109E which dominates it in all respects

 

I think the engine will last 3 or 4 minutes if you try to equalize. Good luck...

[Venturi]

Well, looks like the devs kept in 56" for 5 min. The airframe seems to be performing somewhat better with the latest patch after testing it against a 110. Still below the threshold at which I would consider it capable of tangling with a 109e, as they did in North Africa fairly often.

Here's some more reading for anyone unconvinced.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Venturi

[Crump]

These engines keep being compared that are not necessarily comparable.  A V-1710C15 is not the V-1710F3R.   

 

The 110 outperforms the P40 in "BoM" terms as is and is easier to fly to boot,

 

let alone the 109E which dominates it in all respects

 

I think the engine will last 3 or 4 minutes if you try to equalize. Good luck...

 

 

I hope they fix it.

[Venturi]

Hum, interesting point Crump. I'm sure they reduced the capabilities of the engine in subsequent versions from those that were using 58" boost in P40s circa Dec 1941, or those that were getting 60"+ in 1939. Well I've already ordered that book which seems to be the definitive work on the Allison V1710 series, so soon I'll be better able to figure it out right? I mean all these people who operate warbird events, work on Allison V1710 engines, have obviously put a lot of specific time in. They must all be wrong, right? Probably the guy who wrote the book on the subject doesn't know anything either, you think??

 

Also I don't know if you know this, Crump. Maybe you do, never know. But here in sunny southern CA we have one of the largest collections of extant flying active warbirds in the US over at Chino. And I live about 30 min away. Maybe I'll go over there and get some interviews.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mitK0Ne4-kY

Edited April 1, 2016 by Venturi

[KoN_]

Why does the wing come off in the 110 when hit . its happening quite a lot its the only air frame that i see this happening , surly this should be strong . Also tail gunners not opening fire even though commands have been sent several times .