Yak flaps, again.

[Original_Uwe]

What a load of garbage. What brand of cool-aid are you drinking?

It's pretty good actually it tastes like total losses per side, off the top of my head Luftwaffe lost 11000 ish where the communists lost 39000 aircraft in combat? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Soviet fighters did some things well, and some weren't bad, but in their period we have it's like comparing a Trabant to a BMW.

Edited March 28, 2016 by II./JG53_Uwe

[ShamrockOneFive]

It's pretty good actually it tastes like total losses per side, off the top of my head Luftwaffe lost 11000 ish where the communists lost 39000 aircraft in combat? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Soviet fighters did some things well, and some weren't bad, but in their period we have it's like comparing a Trabant to a BMW.

 

Numbers lost doesn't really do the argument for or against the aircraft themselves any favours. It's only one variable. If we consider the total losses suffered by the VVS in just the first 6 months were largely outdated and antiquated types and that they were frequently lost on the ground from bombing raids then it begins being complex. What about the decimated officer's corps, the inflexible early war tactics, inadequate pilot training, or industrial issues suffered during the massive effort to relocate industry away from the frontlines. Plane losses have only a little to do with the attributes of the individual types.

 

To state that Soviet aircraft were inferior or superior we need to objectively look at competing types and compare and contrast direct strengths and weaknesses.

[coconut]

 

 

To state that Soviet aircraft were inferior or superior we need to objectively look at competing types and compare and contrast direct strengths and weaknesses.

 

I second that. This game is a flight simulator, not a complete war simulator. In particular, the logistics is a determining factor that the game itself isn't dealing with. It will be interesting to see what we can learn from initiatives like the Tactical Air War.

 

Regarding Dr Zebra's observations: I think now is the time to flush out FM/DM issues in BOM. It might actually already be a bit late, seeing how the game is around the corner.

[Mac_Messer]

the testflights where conducted on the duel server at low alt, around 1k.. against Vade with both of us flying both planes. Fuel was locked there serversided at 30%, so that may be an influence factor that needs further looking at especially as weight as huge influence in BoS flightmodeling affecting energy retention.  But overall it came across quite clear that setting microflaps changes everything in a dogfight for the mig 3.  That is a pretty unbiased result and I can only invite anyone to test it. You will come to a similar conclusion.

 

 

edit: at heavier weights (100%fuel) so far the effect appears to be less important/pronounced.. I need some more testing on it.

That might be the methodical mistake you made. IIRC the Mig3 has roughly 1,8 times the range of the 109, so the amount of fuel % needed for the same distance would be different in both planes. In online environment there is not need to set to more than 100km range per flight IMO.

[Willy__]

In online environment there is not need to set to more than 100km range per flight IMO.

 

 I dont know about you, but I always take off with 100% fuel either on the 190 or the 109 when I play online.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Herr_Istruba

[Mac_Messer]

I see no point.

When you fly at 85% fuel and face a Yak with 30% - I`d bet many frustration posts come from such situations.

[9./JG27golani79]

I see no point.

When you fly at 85% fuel and face a Yak with 30% - I`d bet many frustration posts come from such situations.

 

Sometimes I think people even take with them less than 30% - it happened more than once that guys bailed out of a perfectly fine plane during a dogfight when no side was able to take a shot yet because they ran out of fuel ..

Of course I think this depends on how the server and mission is set up.

Edited March 28, 2016 by 9./JG27golani79

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I always take 100% except if it is a Pe-2 or an Il-2 and the target is within 5 minutes in reach. 30% fuel works if you don't get shot up. However, one cannon round to a fuel tank and you're toast in 1 minute.

[Monostripezebra]

That might be the methodical mistake you made. IIRC the Mig3 has roughly 1,8 times the range of the 109, so the amount of fuel % needed for the same distance would be different in both planes. In online environment there is not need to set to more than 100km range per flight IMO.

 

when the fuel is locked serverside, you can NOT choose the fuel loadout. We did choose that server for convience (ie: easy repetition of multipile duel-situations works best on a duel-type server with close proximity airstart). Nonetheless, the plane with higher absolute fuel-payload (same percentage of higher total = more kg) was the more manuverable here, at the same time beeing the heavier, higher wing load plane etc.. so putting less fuel % in the mig will likely should increase said effect. At full 100% loadout the effect becomes significantly less in the Mig (and for me in just my own subjective oppinon feels a lot more realistically performing then)

 

the one or other player coming from RoF might remember the influence weight had on gameplay there with the 10% fuel camels that would dominate the servers.. when fully loaded the camel there had an awesome and challenging FM but at low weight extremes it was simply OP.

 

In BoM you can observe the drastic influence of weight on flight characteristics and energy retention best in the P40. It is worlds appart from flying at max weight (6 guns, extra ammo 100%fuel) to minimal weight (4 guns, no ammo, 20% fuel)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgdFeEa-EG8

 

for the mig however, the interesting thing is, that it doesn´t change so drastically in clean configuration.. infact at 30% without flaps it flys a bit better then fully loaded as it should, but there is no "drastic" effect. Our first test-fights, where we simply did not use flaps made the F2 cs Mig 3 settup like a pretty interesting, balanced setting... UNTIL we started using minimal-flaps (between 10-20%) on the mig, which changed the whole situation drastically in the migs favour, at said 30% fuel loadout

Edited March 28, 2016 by Dr_Zeebra

[Muddy]

I personally demand that henceforth and forevermore any, ANY sim plane that may even consider besting or defeating my obviously superior flight skills in any we be banished from the entire internet or it modelled to my exact reference info. It is completely obvious the it can't be real if it beats ME!!

 

 

This conversation is the long and short of this whole thread and many just like it since the beginning of Internet flight ( yes I am that old lol) and it disgusts me when the developers alter things to please the sore losers. This leads to Mods and the end of the simulation as it was intended to be

 

I get on line and everybody Is German so I select Russian side to keep things even ( if the yak was that great everybody would use it) and I shoot one guy down and then get flamed cause I was in a yak, he slowed down and lost his advantage , what else to say!

[Guest deleted@50488]

I personally demand that henceforth and forevermore any, ANY sim plane that may even consider besting or defeating my obviously superior flight skills in any we be banished from the entire internet or it modelled to my exact reference info. It is completely obvious the it can't be real if it beats ME!!

 

 

This conversation is the long and short of this whole thread and many just like it since the beginning of Internet flight ( yes I am that old lol) and it disgusts me when the developers alter things to please the sore losers. This leads to Mods and the end of the simulation as it was intended to be

 

I get on line and everybody Is German so I select Russian side to keep things even ( if the yak was that great everybody would use it) and I shoot one guy down and then get flamed cause I was in a yak, he slowed down and lost his advantage , what else to say!

 

Ahmen!

[Dakpilot]

 

 

 

 

but in all seriousness.. I´m a lot more concerned about the Mig 3. It is mostly awesomely modeled and great fun, but as soon as people find out, that with a pre-set flap of 10-15% you can cut it´s turning radius about in half without much energy loss.. then all the F2 vs Mig3 duels are basically moot. The planes are quite a good match and you can have really good duels in them with out flaps.. but with hotkeyed 10-15% flaps the mig leave so F2 in the dirt, speed perfomance wise, in slow speed handling and maneuverability...l think it is gonna be a serious imbalance in BoM-plane set only missions. Which I find kind of sad, because it will hurt online gameplay alternatives to the yakkityyak vs F4 hard and it is going to be a bit ahistoric with mig 3 easily outmaneuvering F2s on the low speed knife fights.. something that awesome plane mig 3 really didn´t do.

 

As I understand the ability to 'pre' set flaps in Mig 3 is historically accurate, does it really cut the turn radius by half? in reality 10% flaps will not give a huge drag deficit compared to lift improvements, maybe some comparisons with 109F2 and Mig-3 both with flaps 10% could give some good/interesting results, use of flaps (in the right circumstances) in Bf 109 to improve turn is well documented as a Luftwaffe pilot tactic

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[ACG_pezman]

Hehehe, the Mig is amazing isn't it? 

 

Where it makes the biggest difference is in overall maneuverability.

 

The Mig turns like a Yak, rolls like a La-5, and accelerates like a rocket.  Most LW pilots don't have a trick in their bag for countering an aircraft that is not outclassed by a mile.  Got to say I enjoy this aircraft.  It's not all sunshine and lollipops with it however, it can't dive fast, high speed maneuverability is just awful, and if you aren't careful the Mig will buck you like a bull tossing a cowboy.  But if you mitigate those limitations then you see it is a force to be reckoned with.

 

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone brought it up.  The classic "109 is the most uber aircraft ever" mentality hates competition. 

[Jade_Monkey]

I still have to figure out how to do the flap thing on the mig-3. Is it before starting up the engine?

 

I like it overall.

 

Also not sure what's the best gun loadout.

[Asgar]

if you just push the button to retract or extend you do just that. you keep it pressed to adjust the flap limiter

Edited March 29, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[ACG_pezman]

I still have to figure out how to do the flap thing on the mig-3. Is it before starting up the engine?

 

I like it overall.

 

Also not sure what's the best gun loadout.

The flaps limiter is set by holding down the "Flaps Retract" key.  After a couple of seconds you will see something pop up in the techno-chat showing your flap percentage drop.  15 degrees seems to work good for me in it.

 

Now as far as loadout goes I prefer either the two BS 12.7mm machine guns or the two 20mm cannons.  The machine guns afford you more ammo, higher rate of fire, and a higher projectile velocity which makes aiming easier imo.  But those cannons only affect turn performance a little bit (still on par with the 109's) and if you get the chance to score a hit it's almost always goodnight.

[Jade_Monkey]

Thanks for the quick response guys!

Edited March 29, 2016 by Jade_Monkey

[ACG_pezman]

at work and very bored :<

[Jade_Monkey]

at work and very bored :<

Same

[Monostripezebra]

ok.. just a heads up: for the 109 there really is an exploit that is much worse then mig flaps, the binding of the stabilizer to the joystick does change everything for the 109, too... and far worse then the flap effect. That definatly needs a look into it.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGtexCZxuCo

Edited March 30, 2016 by Dr_Zeebra

[Fern]

Mig 3 is my new favorite.

 

Just saw this video about yak flaps. In-game nose rise is more pronounced.

 

[SR-F_Winger]

ok.. just a heads up: for the 109 there really is an exploit that is much worse then mig flaps, the binding of the stabilizer to the joystick does change everything for the 109, too... and far worse then the flap effect. That definatly needs a look into it.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGtexCZxuCo

I only see a 109 entering a stall:)

I know there is the possibility to set stabilizeraxis to elevator axis. But stabilizer needs to stay on an analog axis. With computergames there are always possibilities to use "features" in other ways than the by devs intended one. So i guess there is nothing anyone can do about that.

 

 

190 with his high speed ideal speed for sustained turning is so advanatgeous and makes it one of the best tnb fighters

 

Youre serious on this? FW an ideal TnBer?

 

Sorry. You must be kidding. 1st of april is not yet here:)

 

For the record. No matter the plane. EVERYTHING is on your six in a matter of seconds if you start turning in an FW. Except maybe for a MIG 3 (takes it a little longer) or a PE-2:)

Edited March 30, 2016 by StG2_Winger

[SR-F_Winger]

thats because you do it wrong:

 

most people pull to much the joystci so the wind begins to be noisy and turbulent causing huge drag and slowing you down, dogfights are not stall fights but ideal speed turning fights

 

so i keep my 190 turning over 350 km hours you with your yak give a huge turn to be on my six but youre at 270 km/h while im at 350 so i go for a hammer head and your toast

 

the other option the yak has is to remain at 350 kph but then at that speed the 190 is a better turner

 

turning really is an art and most people do it wrong, really the turning performance is 20%, 80% is the pilot force

let me ask how much online experience you have?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The best part of arguing turn fighting with Raaaid is it is also a circular argument. Don't go there. It's a trap!

[SR-F_Winger]

The best part of arguing turn fighting with Raaaid is it is also a circular argument. Don't go there. It's a trap!

Thanks for the warning.

@ Raaaid: OK, maybe one day we meet on a server then we can go on a duel server for fun. You in a FW and me in a YAK. Just for fun we start turning after passby.

Edited March 30, 2016 by StG2_Winger

[SR-F_Winger]

Just a thought.

Even if the turnperformance is good at that speed (noone doubts that), the turncircle is still > YAK turncircle. And this leads without any doubt into a situation in wich the YAK is on your tail in a matter of seconds:) So the YAK will be in firingposition short after the match started. And it WILL shoot:P

Edited March 30, 2016 by StG2_Winger

[Trinkof]

Bored at work also....

 

As for raaaid :

 

FW can turn pretty well at the correct speed while using the stabilizer full nose up, and yes if you use feedback from the audio you can hear pretty well the "perfect airflow" where the plane will keep turning with a sustained 350 / 400 km.h., with a turn radius not ridiculous at all.

 

Works versus lagg, and la-5 if they do not drop flaps... But a yak will eat you alive with this kind of trick...

 

So in my opinion : it turns good, but the tactic is not suitable at all regarding the opposite side.

 

If you meant by turning : "fighting in horizontal plan" then I agree, I find FW better with hit and run almost horizontally rather than true boom and zoom from above....

 

But if you meant dogfighting or what can be called a "knife fight" involving tight and near stall turn.... Well the FW do not does well at all at this job

[Livai]

Did nobody ask the Question how a Dogfight with zero Errors from both pilots looks like? Did the Devs not said they use a Bot ( Robot ) that fly the plane to be 100% accurate?

[SR-F_Winger]

yes but what if you do a perfectly vertical hammer head before he is on your six

Sorry i dont get it. AFAIK to perform a hammerhead you have to enter a controlled stall hoping your enemy (with far less energy and hopefully 500-1000m below you tries to follow, stalls also (before you do) so you can fall in behind him and shred him. Doing that in any plane without significant energyadvantage is a death sentence.

Maybe I miss something but there comes no other scenario to my mind thats not aerobatic and that justifies a maneuver that leaves you hanging in the air as a perfect static target like the hammerhead does.

Edited March 30, 2016 by StG2_Winger

[BraveSirRobin]

A hammerhead is just about the best way to get blasted out of the sky.

[FuriousMeow]

 

 

Just saw this video about yak flaps. In-game nose rise is more pronounced.

 

That's because in real life the joystick will move when flaps are deployed based on the change in airflow. In-game it does not happen as the joystick is always centered. If the real life pilot held his stick at center the same thing would happen. It was discussed in a dev diary a while back.

 

As for the rest... this happens without fail. "I did well in this plane, it is too good!" "I get shot down all the time by this plane, it's too good!" That says more about the skills and knowledge of air combat maneuvers of the person's involved than it does about the plane.

Edited March 30, 2016 by FuriousMeow

[MK_RED13]

raaaid.. don't be a coward..and try it with Winger as oponent.. you with FW.. Wingy with Yak.. 

 

Time, date.. server.. I'll be there as watchman! 

 

Ed.