Crash Landing. Deploy flaps or gear?

[unlikely_spider]

In a fighter, if you have a damaged engine, and need to land on a flat surface, do you put down your flaps? Flaps seem to give more lift, but at the expense of speed. I think I did it too early last time, and ended up gaining altitude, then quickly back down again hard since I didn't have any speed left. What about gear? Do they help in the right situation, or would they just cause you to flip?

 

I've tried this a few times in the campaign, with different strategies, but haven't had enough experience to come to an educated conclusion either way.

[YoYo]

Flaps in the final (but if You have a speed), no gear. You can also take a bigger drag by AoA (without flaps).

Edited March 21, 2016 by YoYo

[ACG_pezman]

I rarely use flaps on emergency landings because of what you mentioned earlier, the eat up too much vital speed in the final and could blow a perfect dead stick landing because you have no power to correct any mistake.  However, I also agree with what YoYo said about using them if you have too much speed, yes.

 

Gear, well gear is a toss up in my opinion.  Many times I had a beautiful approach, dropped the gear, and touched perfectly just to flip instantly.  So this is what I have learned:

 

I leave flaps and gear up if I am putting down in a field, it is a much smother landing that way.  If I can make it to a runway then I leave my gear up until I reach the threshold or a point at which I know that I have more than enough energy to make the runway safely.  If I have too much energy in the previous scenario, I drop the flaps as well to eat the extra energy.

 

In short, if you have to crash/emergency land with a dead stick, you really can't go wrong leaving both gear and flaps up (and I believe this is the correct protocol as well).  Doing so will ensure that you aircraft will come to a complete stop without flipping or exploding (save trees and hills that you didn't anticipate).  I only attempt to use gear if I can make it to a runway, and even then only if I can ensure that dropping the gear wont make me fall short of the runway as well.

 

No here is the kicker:  Why attempt a belly landing if you could just bail and end up with the same outcome?  I don't know for sure but I think aircraft crashed on landing back at the airfield you come from are only recycled if after you finish your flight it says "In Service" or something.  Otherwise it's a loss and there is no different from bailing into friendly territory or nursing it back to base.

[mort]

No here is the kicker:  Why attempt a belly landing if you could just bail and end up with the same outcome?  I don't know for sure but I think aircraft crashed on landing back at the airfield you come from are only recycled if after you finish your flight it says "In Service" or something.  Otherwise it's a loss and there is no different from bailing into friendly territory or nursing it back to base.

 

You could also be at too low an altitude to safely bail out. I've definitely smacked into the ground with my chute not fully deployed.

[ACG_pezman]

You could also be at too low an altitude to safely bail out. I've definitely smacked into the ground with my chute not fully deployed.

That is a good point. We would belly land in this situation, lol.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It is very dependent on your speed and altitude on final. If I have both I tend to drop flaps and gear. If I am lacking either I start doing mental calculations on the fly for the best combination/alternative. You can also use combat flaps on some AC without going all the way to a landing configuration. Landing the dead stick is really gratifying when you can pull it off.

 

Landing in a field should be gear up as it was in real life. Doing otherwise is pretty risky and flipping over is likely. Fortunately the pilots in the game are pretty hardy in roll overs. I would think there would be more critical injuries in real life.

 

You need at least 250'ish meters to jump from a plane in the horizontal. If you can pitch up in the last few seconds and direct your momentum away from mother earth, you can jump from lower. If you are pointed straight down, it is significantly more than 250m.

 

All of the above decisions need to be made fairly quickly if you are going to stay ahead of the AC.

Edited March 21, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Asgar]

also remember, never retract flaps if your engine is out. If they're extended they should stay that way until you're on the ground

[AndyJWest]

Theoretically, flaps should reduce the minimum safe glide speed, though they will also make the glide steeper, making it more important to get the flare right. Given that kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, touching down at minimum speed is clearly worthwhile though - so lower flaps, and come in with enough excess speed to flare maybe a metre above the ground, and hold it there until it settles. If the flaps are infinitely adjustable, dropping them say two-thirds down would probably be preferable.

[SqwkHappy]

Basically gonna repeat what everyone else has said: Flaps if you have the speed, gear up unless you want to flip.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Obviously you should use flaps to land if you are landing off runway it's no different to a wheels down landing. You should never ever use landing gear in an emergency landing as Herrmurf stated. It's relevant in the RL as much as in game.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I wouldn't  use flaps in Off-Field Landings, because without engine power you bleed way too much Energy due to Higher Drag + Steeper Dive Angle --> Stall and Smacking into the ground, especially on fighters with high wing loadings. The less energy you loose while flaring, the softer the touchdown and lower the risk.

To land safely with flaps you would have to go quite fast, and therefore steep, thus limiting your range of Outlanding Spots.

That's why I would advice never to use flaps.

 

I would also open the canopy on any aircraft. This gives you better forward-down view at the high angles of attack on landing. 

[busdriver]

My default choice with a dead engine is to bail out or dive away from the fight and jump at a safe altitude from a somewhat straight and level attitude. If I'm screaming along like a scalded-ass ape at tree top height when my motor quits, I try to zoom (trade airspeed for altitude) and jump out. It's a carryover from the F-16 critical action procedure for engine failure at low altitude...1. Zoom 2. Stores Jettison 3. Eject

 

Otherwise Andy offers sage counsel, and I'd keep the gear retracted unless you're landing on a runway.

I wouldn't  use flaps in Off-Field Landings, because without engine power you bleed way too much Energy due to Higher Drag + Steeper Dive Angle --> Stall and Smacking into the ground, especially on fighters with high wing loadings. The less energy you loose while flaring, the softer the touchdown and lower the risk.

To land safely with flaps you would have to go quite fast, and therefore steep, thus limiting your range of Outlanding Spots.

That's why I would advice never to use flaps.

 

I would also open the canopy on any aircraft. This gives you better forward-down view at the high angles of attack on landing. 

Interesting...I respectfully disagree with your analysis.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

To Elaborate: When gliding using flaps your effective glide path is often in th double digit degrees, thus to  flare you have to reduce your glideslope from probably 15° to 0° which together with drag and low speed burns away your energy before you can complete the flare in many cases resulting in a stall and crash, especially in Fw190s, I-16s and Pe-2s. 

 

The Glide Slope angle with flaps up is much better, you adjust it in a Side-Slip and flaring is simple as well at speeds of 270-350 depending on aircraft. You can select a large enough are to land and since after touchdown you are powerless anyways and you stop very quickly, you don't have to worry about stopping distances too much and concentrate on a clean Belly-Landing.

 

Edit: popping very slight flap settings of less than 10° can be beneficial in all Messerschmitt types and Lavochkins

Edited March 22, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[busdriver]

To Elaborate: When gliding using flaps your effective glide path is often in th double digit degrees, thus to  flare you have to reduce your glideslope from probably 15° to 0° which together with drag and low speed burns away your energy before you can complete the flare in many cases resulting in a stall and crash, especially in Fw190s, I-16s and Pe-2s. 

 

The Glide Slope angle with flaps up is much better, you adjust it in a Side-Slip and flaring is simple as well at speeds of 270-350 depending on aircraft. You can select a large enough are to land and since after touchdown you are powerless anyways and you stop very quickly, you don't have to worry about stopping distances too much and concentrate on a clean Belly-Landing.

 

Edit: popping very slight flap settings of less than 10° can be beneficial in all Messerschmitt types and Lavochkins

Fair enough. I suppose it's different skill sets. I don't worry about stopping distance either. Since kinetic energy is equal to Mass times Velocity square I attempt to land at speeds less than 200 km/h. I certainly agree that a faster approach will require a flatter approach, but I suppose my technique is sufficiently different that deadstick with flaps looks and feels perfectly normal. Clearly our different RL flying experience color our preferences. I'm not going to argue with your technique if you're successful. It is after all merely pixels on a screen. Cheers!

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Fair enough. I suppose it's different skill sets. I don't worry about stopping distance either. Since kinetic energy is equal to Mass times Velocity square I attempt to land at speeds less than 200 km/h. I certainly agree that a faster approach will require a flatter approach, but I suppose my technique is sufficiently different that deadstick with flaps looks and feels perfectly normal. Clearly our different RL flying experience color our preferences. I'm not going to argue with your technique if you're successful. It is after all merely pixels on a screen. Cheers!

Most ingame aircraft have stall speeds well below 150kph, so flaps up is no problem for me. However Flaring and noticing that you still have 5° to make but you're out of energy is always unpleasant, and so is the then uncontrollable impact. 

Flaps up I have a Reserve if I screw up an get too slow tooo high, as bit like buffer. 

 

We have Target Landing Competitions between Clubs here and that's what I take style from. (And no, I'm not in that. You'd just see me as a burning bright ball of white light anyways)

Glider Pilots make the better Crash Landers apparently.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'll take up that mantel. If you have the altitude and airspeed, a  landing, even a belly landing, with flaps can be done quite controlled. And I want the most control near the stall. The stall can be quite a bit more vicious without flaps in the Fw in particular. My approach speed in both German fighters dirtied up is around 210-220. My approach for a belly landing with flaps out is 240-250, flare at a couple of meters and then try to drag the tail feathers to keep radiators and bits from digging in as long as possible. I see no advantage to shallow and fast for a belly landing but lots of disadvantages.

 

I don't know about the I16 but the Pe2, at least in game, is said to be flown to the ground for landing. So, it is not a great example for flaps in the first place.

 

Not sure why we are comparing to gliders with spoilers now either? Completely different animal.

Edited March 22, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I'll take up that mantel. If you have the altitude and airspeed, a  landing, even a belly landing, with flaps can be done quite controlled. And I want the most control near the stall. The stall can be quite a bit more vicious without flaps in the Fw in particular. My approach speed in both German fighters dirtied up is around 210-220. My approach for a belly landing with flaps out is 240-250, flare at a couple of meters and then try to drag the tail feathers to keep radiators and bits from digging in as long as possible. I see no advantage to shallow and fast for a belly landing but lots of disadvantages.

 

I don't know about the I16 but the Pe2, at least in game, is said to be flown to the ground for landing. So, it is not a great example for flaps in the first place.

 

Not sure why we are comparing to gliders with spoilers now either? Completely different animal.

Once you are at flaps down stall speed and you made a single miscalculation you have no more reserves. Your steep angle means you have to flare away far more vertical speed which adds danger.

You are limiting your dead-stick range as well, which is crucial below 300m without energy to spare. 

The gain in Stall Speed is immediatly offset by the enormous drag. 

 

I sideslip into narrow outlanding fields, this is how you should regulate your speed and slope, much like a spoiler. 

 

Shown here (no spoilers used)

 

Edit: I can always pop a titty out when I'm high and slow, but not the other way round. If you're sagging high and slow you crash.

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Difficult topic with many answers. Personally most of the time I use flaps only when on final on 'last second' to ensure I can flare at lower airspeed and thus reduce the threat of boucing / too hard impact (on a dead stick landing that is). If the engine still is in running condition (or close...) I deploy flaps as usual for any landing but with more caution to get a good approach angle and speed for a nice short landing rollout.

 

Talking about offical documents the Bf-109 manual for the G-2 states emergency landing shall only be performed with landing flaps (if with dead engine). That however requires you to have a save altitude to be able to keep a nice glidign path and sink rate. If you are down low already ( < 150m AGL) you should better focus on a clean landing approach without flaps rather than extending flaps in a haste and thus messing up your landing approach. 

 

Generally speaking, most crash landings happen in wild nature and sometimes uneven terrain and you want to make sure to get the shortest landing distance possible to avoid collision. Flaps are definetly helping that if used accoridngly. Ins ome instances however it's better to appraoch lower and faster, an example owuld be an uphill landing. In such a case flaps are not as helpfull and it might be better to just land without them.

Most ingame aircraft have stall speeds well below 150kph, so flaps up is no problem for me.

Depends on weight and what aircraft you referr to. A combta loaden Fw-190 is already above 150km/h and the Bf-109 isn't too far away, either. Different story when flaring near the ground when ground effect increases lift force.

 

The main point behind flaps is not providing higher lift or reducing stall speed, it's about shortening the landing distance. You can surely do well without given you have enought space for your landing.

We have Target Landing Competitions between Clubs here and that's what I take style from. (And no, I'm not in that. You'd just see me as a burning bright ball of white light anyways)

Glider Pilots make the better Crash Landers apparently.

Participated 2 times in it and I can tell it's pretty difficult to nail the first field considering you're sitting in a 7m long aircraft traveling 80km/h close to the ground. It's like driving threw an open parking slot with that speed without hitting nearby cars.

 

Edit:

 

Attached the excerp fromt the G-2 manual.

 

It suggests:

- at low altitude (below 1000m): landing with retracted gear, pull back till 200km/h, deploy full flaps

- at altitudes above 1000m: only land with gear if you can reach hard surfaces or a landing strip, deploy flaps and gear only at 1000m for better glide ratio, feather prop, deploy gear and full flaps

- landing on see: always with retracted gear and full flaps

Edited March 22, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'm with 5tuka all the way on this topic.

 

Edit: I am also prepared to sideslip with or without flaps on all types of landings.

[Y-29.Silky]

You want to stay in the air as long as possible, if I have to touch down in a small area where trees are a threat, I'll extend the flaps, if I'm touching down in an open area I leave them up.

 

Knowing my dogfighting skills, I'm like an expert at this xD

[J4SCrisZeri]

From my poor experience, flaps can make things a little easier if you extend them at the last second, just before touching down. You know, in order to get the maximum speed reduction.
As for the gear, it may unbalance the plane and work like a dangerous hook, I prefer a clean belly touchdown.

[GP*]

You want to touch down with the least airspeed possible if you're going to perform a belly landing. For that reason, I nearly always use flaps during an emergency landing.

 

If your engine fails at altitude, no need to extend the flaps immediately. Use them as appropriate to facilitate the a forced landing with the slowest speed (and consequently, the lowest kinematic energy) possible.

 

I agree with others who don't lower the gear. I would not want to land gear down on an unprepared surface that I'm not familiar with in a WWII fighter.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Go_Pre

[Monostripezebra]

It all depends on how much of your plane you actually want to re-use. I had some fun in the mig:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvHi82uf0Cs

 

if you eject, remember that your vector matters.. even at low alt pushing down and then up to get a more favourable inherited vector may well be worth a though.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxi_rqAW9vM

Edited March 22, 2016 by Dr_Zeebra

[Elem]

It all depends on how much of your plane you actually want to re-use. I had some fun in the mig:

 

 

if you eject, remember that your vector matters.. even at low alt pushing down and then up to get a more favourable inherited vector may well be worth a though.

 

 

 Watching your video made me wonder whether anyone has made a successful "taran" attack?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Elem

[-TBC-AeroAce]

As a real pilot this completely depends on when and where you lose your engine.

 

Use flaps to get down quickly basically. Lets say if you are over where you want to land as this will get you down for less distance travelled.

 

Conversely if your over dangerous terain and your safe landing spot is in the distance you do not want to use flaps as it will decrease your glide ratio.

 

In terms of gear or not that really depends. Gear will cause drag so referring to above the same applies.

 

Gear out if you are to high,close. Gear in if you need a big glide distance.

 

Gear out will also be more dangerous or safe, in or out in certain situations but this is not clear cut.

 

My advice that I got taught is as soon as engine is out, scan for a landing site, then decide what you are doing in terms of the above. And DON'T CHANGE YOUR MIND!!!

 

An important thing to add is that depending on the aircraft you may not have the time or even choice to use flaps or gear as like the i16 u will be down before you get them out. Or other aircraft might lose hydraulics...

 

Key point is find a spot and aim/plan them commit to it

Edited March 24, 2016 by AeroACE

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I crash land too often for my own good. Nothing to add here other than what people have said - no gear, flaps when appropriate.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Ha, I just realized I have no idea what the best power off glide speed is for any of the aircraft I fly in this sim. Been doing it by the seat of the pants for two years with reasonable success. I'd never not know for the real AC I fly!

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Ha, I just realized I have no idea what the best power off glide speed is for any of the aircraft I fly in this sim. Been doing it by the seat of the pants for two years with reasonable success. I'd never not know for the real AC I fly!

Lol for the Singles I fly its on the dashboard!!

 

In sim I think 180kmh might be close(not tested)!!

Edited March 24, 2016 by AeroACE

[Gambit21]

Ha, I just realized I have no idea what the best power off glide speed is for any of the aircraft I fly in this sim. Been doing it by the seat of the pants for two years with reasonable success. I'd never not know for the real AC I fly!

Been doing it by the seat of my pants since EAW, 1998 - never had a need to know power off glide speeds.