Russian planes are made out of ?

[GridiroN]

 

German belts*: HE/API/HE

Russian belts: API/HE/API

 

*belts for gunpods on the Bf 109 : HE/API

 

Maybe run a few tests with German planes against German planes and Russian planes against Russian planes. Then you can probably figure out if the weapons are more effective or if the planes are sturdier.

 

 

With all due respect, I'm confused how these are different at all. 

 

I'm reading this as:

 

German: Blue/Red/Blue

Russian: Red/Blue/Red

 

Are you suggesting that they use the same configuration other than whether the first round is either HE or AP? Are you also telling us that German planes do not get a minnen round as opposed to a regular HE round?

 

 

Russian planes are not bullet sponges.

 

Not mentioning the times where the pilot dies/get injured straight away, it is also very common, to be put out of action with the first round. I'd love to see a video of a russian plane taking 5/6 20mm rounds without damage.

 

I can tell you with absolute certainty as someone who's played this sim for about a million hours exclusively German until this month that Russian fighters more often than not have no issue taking a couple 20mm rounds before showing any noticable sign of decreased performance. I have been chased around the map before for a good 70km by Russ planes spewing black. 

 

I do not think primarily Russian pilots understand what a knife's edge the 109 fights on; 1 round to the 109 can ruin the plane's ability to fight completely. Russian planes on the other hand, if they are not on the ground, or dead, they're still combat capable. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by GridiroN

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

I do not think primarily Russian pilots understand what a knife's edge the 109 fights on

Do tell. I imagine you might even risk damaging your plane from the debris of the aircraft you kill. 

 

 

 

With all due respect, I'm confused how these are different at all.

It's simple. For every German load for two HE rounds there is one AP round. With Soviets its the opposite, for every two AP rounds there is only one HE.  

 

 

 

Are you also telling us that German planes do not get a minnen round as opposed to a regular HE round?

Every German HE is minnen, its been discussed over and over. German HE carries substantially larger explosive content than Soviet one, and there is no regular HE.  

[Aap]

 

 

It's simple. For every German load for two HE rounds there is one AP round. With Soviets its the opposite, for every two AP rounds there is only one HE.  

 

It definitely does not look like that when picking ammo in the game. I have seen only orange-blue, orange-orange or blue-blue possibilities. Or is that orange-blue supposed to just indicate that there is a mix of HE and AP rather than the actual belt configuration? 

[216th_Jordan]

It definitely does not look like that when picking ammo in the game. I have seen only orange-blue, orange-orange or blue-blue possibilities. Or is that orange-blue supposed to just indicate that there is a mix of HE and AP rather than the actual belt configuration?

I guess so. Looking at hits scored this would make sense also.

[JaffaCake]

Did not go through the entire topic, but I think the main issue is incorrectly modelled HE damage in the game.

 

[Matt]

German: Blue/Red/Blue Russian: Red/Blue/Red   Are you suggesting that they use the same configuration other than whether the first round is either HE or AP?

Maybe this is more clear:

 

German*: Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/Blue/Red/Blue/

Russian: Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/Red/Blue/Red/

 

*(excluding gunpods, those are Blue/Red)

 

 

 

Are you also telling us that German planes do not get a minnen round as opposed to a regular HE round?

ONLY mine shell is currently modelled as HE ammo for the German 20mm cannons and no other type of HE.

 

 

And yes HE is undermodelled in general, just take a La-5 with only HE shells and you'll see.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Matt

[ShamrockOneFive]

In repeat testing I found that the MG151/20 was causing more damage and over a wider area than the ShVAK was on similar targets. The ShVAK was powerful but its damage was concentrated in a smaller area. For example when shooting at a Pe-2 with standard loadout (AP and HE) I was damaging the engine nacelle almost entirely with the ShVAK while with the MG151/20 the damage was both to the engine nacelle and to the fuselage nearby... I killed the rear gunner while shooting exclusively at the engine for example.

 

Relatively speaking I didn't find much difference between each side in terms of total damage sustained. The Bf109 is more fragile than the Yak or LaGG but only slightly. The Yak and LaGG IMHO look worse with less damage due to all of those small fuel leaks from the engines while the Bf109 appears to be fine and then completely dead. It seems to feel that way from the cockpit too.

Edited March 27, 2017 by ShamrockOneFive

[seafireliv]

Seems ok to me. It`s well known that wood can be pretty resilient due to its flexible properties. I`m sure someone has already posted how resilient the Mosquito was.

[BubiHUN]

Yeah, russian planes are not enough overpowered by germans. And we should all play on german side. Who cares about ballance.

Every time i enter server there is 3:1 ratio of LW:VVS

I like historical accuracy too but not at cost of pvp ballance.

Btw treated wood could stand damage better in some situations.

we are playing a simulator, so what kind of balance are we talking about? 

 

But, you want to say by that, the red stuff are overmodelled because of the lack of red players? 

Seems ok to me. It`s well known that wood can be pretty resilient due to its flexible properties. I`m sure someone has already posted how resilient the Mosquito was.

yes its acting like gum.

[Irgendjemand]

Who cares about ballance

THIS! NOONE cares about balance in a SIMulation.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[Irgendjemand]

And yes HE is undermodelled in general, just take a La-5 with only HE shells and you'll see.

 

Do you know if this has been admitted by devs and if they said they intend to fix it?

Edited March 28, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[deWaardt]

[BlitzPig_EL]

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

we are playing a simulator, so what kind of balance are we talking about?

 

THIS! NOONE cares about balance in a SIMulation.

 

I think he is talking about population balance?

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

I think he is talking about population balance?

It's exactly what he's talking about...

[216th_Jordan]

Yeah, technical side is modelled quite well, team numbers not so much

[Solmyr]

The topic is very interesting, but the first post is, once again, claiming without any proofs, nor even any real in-depth study, wich is quite a shame imho.

 

At least, I guess we all might agree that we're hoping for more devs' in-depth information about the whole ammo/weapons/damage-related topic. I guess it will come eventually, like we finally got plenty of planes' in-game data.

[VesseL]

Hi. Rus fighters made of wood and take damage way too much( 5x 20mm hits are typially not enough). They dont seem to be as strong as the Ger planes when diving fast though. which i dont understand. Why dont the safety margins work in this situation. Are the safety margin only beause of the damage from ammunition? Is Han speaking the truth?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Can someone explain this to me , I've been playing this game for about a year or so and I'm noticing that Russian planes can take 5-6 or more 20mm shots and fly away. While all it takes for a German 109 is a strafe (1-3 shots) and you're either dead or running for your life. 

Didn't know wood/plastic can take some much damage. They should probably remove all of the metal/steel used on today's jets and ask Russians for their wood due it seems to be better than any other metal.

I have to say that I am no newb, I can hit my targets pretty well but I don't like bullet sponges. Breaking a wing or setting a Russian plane on fire is like hitting the lottery, when ever it happens it feels like Christmas. 

 

It's super easy to saw Yak wings off.

 

Just sayin'.

Hi. Rus fighters made of wood and take damage way too much( 5x 20mm hits are typially not enough). They dont seem to be as strong as the Ger planes when diving fast though. which i dont understand. Why dont the safety margins work in this situation. Are the safety margin only beause of the damage from ammunition? Is Han speaking the truth?

 

Are you accusing Han of lying..?

-snip-

 

Every German HE is minnen, its been discussed over and over. German HE carries substantially larger explosive content than Soviet one, and there is no regular HE.  

 

Cool, but every variety of HE ammunition is being undermodeled. AP is ridiculously overmodeled.

 

Russian AP is considerable more effective than German HE in every situation that it shouldn't be.

[VesseL]

Just asking. Maybe he dont know.

Edited March 29, 2017 by VesseL

[Guest deleted@30725]

 

 

Russian AP is considerable more effective than German HE in every situation that it shouldn't be.

 

Please provide facts or legit sources for your claims or send legit sources to developers so they can make informed changes if required.

Edited March 29, 2017 by deleted@30725

[Dakpilot]

Getting aileron flutter etc. in a dive is not the same set of strengths that relate to damage from impacts or necessarily G maneuvers

 

not saying everything is right but there is more to it than Dive limits = potential combat damage resistance

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

[von-Luck]

For those interested in a very detail oriented extrapolation of cannon effectiveness I'll leave you with an outstanding article to shed some light on this.

 

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

 

von Luck

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

@von-Luck

thank you for posting this I just took a quick view over it and even though im taking the information provided with a huge grain of salt I must say it seems consistent with the IL2 experience, comparing effectiveness of the mg151 and Shvak.

However I'm not going to make assumptions about how closely the data reflects reality yet.

 

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello all,

 

Just to add more grist to the mill, I don't mind that the Russian kites keep flying after being hit by several 20mm shells, but I do shake my head when those kites fly and fight as though nothing happened even though they have obvious engine and structural damage. That said, it's not bad enough to make me dislike the sim.

 

Good hunting,

Conky

[VesseL]

Im a big fan of box. So thank you devs and Han. I sometimes get frustrated cause weak guns on 109, but it is no game braker to me. I did read that 3-5x mg151/20 rounds was enough irl. In game it is not, well there may be a mistake in the simulation. This is the only issue i have with box.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I still see guys talking derisively about wooden aircraft like that type of construction makes it automatically inferior or that the Russian types are automatically weaker because of it.

[curiousGamblerr]

... I did read that 3-5x mg151/20 rounds was enough irl. In game it is not, well there may be a mistake in the simulation. ...

 

I've literally clicked my trigger in the 109 in caught Russian planes on fire or taken off their wings. It is enough, you just have to actually hit them. Given the lack of actual evidence presented, I'm pretty sure most people complaining the 109's guns are weak are missing, either because of their own aim or multiplayer lag (which is a separate issue).

[Solmyr]

I've literally clicked my trigger in the 109 in caught Russian planes on fire or taken off their wings. It is enough, you just have to actually hit them. Given the lack of actual evidence presented, I'm pretty sure most people complaining the 109's guns are weak are missing, either because of their own aim or multiplayer lag (which is a separate issue).

Exactly. Or they see a sparkle and think it's a 151/20 when it's a MG/17 ammo, or the ammo that hits is the tracer one (less efficient), or there are real damages but they will see it later... etc. Also sometimes I'm absolutely sure that I should have hit my target (whatever the lady I fly and whatever the target), the plane is down for sure, couldn't resist to that, you know, impossible ; but the target actually seems to still be flying perfectly. In those cases I don't go to the forums to complain about the devs' work, yet I complain about myself. That's all.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Solmyr

[Irgendjemand]

I think he is talking about population balance?

 

Thats a diffrent story. Got that wrong if thats so.

[VesseL]

I've literally clicked my trigger in the 109 in caught Russian planes on fire or taken off their wings. It is enough, you just have to actually hit them. Given the lack of actual evidence presented, I'm pretty sure most people complaining the 109's guns are weak are missing, either because of their own aim or multiplayer lag (which is a separate issue).

Hi. Me too. Sometimes one 20mm is enough. But it is rare. And i fly both sides so it is not aiming. La5 with AP ammo belt i have no problems. 3-5 hits is more than enough usually. but not other way aroud.

 

 here are some evidence, since 2015: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15215-minengeschoss-and-latest-version-ammo/

and here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24965-video-test-20mm/

Edited March 30, 2017 by VesseL

[Ribbon]

Thats a diffrent story. Got that wrong if thats so.

i wrote population ratio so that means population, i run away from server when i see 40 germans vs 4russians, no fun for both sides,so far i think ballance in planes are good thanks to yak-1b and la-5.

 

[LFL-EightyPLUS]

As a relative Noob i noticed that its considerately more easy to gun down German planes as opposed to Russian planes...Having said that, The average Russian fighter is more difficult to fly well...so in a way the Game is balance..Dont know if it was meant too be balanced like this but...it is...in my opinion..

[Custard]

I did read that 3-5x mg151/20 rounds was enough irl. In game it is not, well there may be a mistake in the simulation. This is the only issue i have with box.

 

Count the number of hits.

 

https://puu.sh/v3Rcy/2c041e8e2b.webm

[BubiHUN]

Count the number of hits.

 

https://puu.sh/v3Rcy/2c041e8e2b.webm

count the number of hits here, a lost half-elevator! 

https://youtu.be/89z024GmUDE?t=166

Edited April 2, 2017 by BubiHUN

[ShoeHash]

Just wait until our beloved P-39 comes out. Then there will be no discussion of which cannon is over-modeled, just sweet harmonious praise for the new 37mm round. It will be unity, and that unity will result in less 109s, all the time, everywhere, and for everybody.

[Dakpilot]

Well we can then start the debate as to whether any AP ammo was actually supplied or HE was the only option for 37mm cannon  in P-39 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[BlitzPig_EL]

There will always be another debate... it's a flight sim forum after all...

 

[JaffaCake]

Hi. Me too. Sometimes one 20mm is enough. But it is rare. And i fly both sides so it is not aiming. La5 with AP ammo belt i have no problems. 3-5 hits is more than enough usually. but not other way aroud.

 

 here are some evidence, since 2015: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15215-minengeschoss-and-latest-version-ammo/

and here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24965-video-test-20mm/

 

 

This is actually very concerning. I wonder how many more tests people need to do to get dev's attention?

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

* Please enable caption or watch on youtube for autocaption

 

https://youtu.be/KG3LYraI6sk

 

made this video. If things like this happened once in a while I would be ok with it. But this is no exception unfortunately. I just happened to record this flight and have a direct comparison of how efficient the German vs Russians guns are. I know - lag, netcode etc... but this shit happens so many times that it cannot be just that.

 

Devs need to tackle the problem.

Edited April 2, 2017 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn