Thoughts about the latest 190 ?

[jaydee]

Hi all. I have only had a few short flights in the "New" 190 so I cant make any scientific claims. But flying the Same Mission in QMB, It feels the 190 now has more "Momentum" !... Climbing "slightly" doesnt affect the speed as much. Diving increases the speed quicker. pulling it up and over just feels right.

Without getting too technical, its kinetic energy seems more transferrable with small pilot inputs.

I have only flown it at 1000 to 2500 so far and I like it.

What do ye reckon lads ?

Edit "Momentum" is the only word I could think of to describe my perceived change !

~S~

[coconut]

"new" compared to when? If you are referring to DD125, I don't think these changes have been released yet.

[jaydee]

"new" compared to when? If you are referring to DD125, I don't think these changes have been released yet.

 

Hi Coconut ! I had a game update this morning. Maybe it a placebo effect on me, but the 190 does feel different ! ~S~

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Jaydee,

 

Yup, placebo. The update this morning was only to the CTD tracker. The DD is for the next full update. Maybe early this week? Ju88 is still a bit further off.

[Asgar]

i'm pretty sure there won't be another update before the release of the Ju, but who knows

[Guest deleted@50488]

At least it was a clear proof of what I believe is trully the way the IL2-BoS/ BoM team works - dedicated to providing their users with the best experience that can be taken out of the flight and overall physics / damage / weather / AI.... modeling offered by their tittle.

 

Few of us are able to present them with the precise data required to actually "tweak" a given model, and bring it closer to what we believe were the true flight characteristics of it's RW counterpart. Thanksfully, some user managed to get detailf lift / drag pollars, and that allowed the team to fine tune the Fw190 to an even better model of the A-3.

 

I recall that sometime ago there was also some discussion regarding the compressor transition altitude in the Fw190. I believe some users complained about t happening too low.

 

I don't know if this has also been addressed ( never tested it again ) but Han reffuted those claims with a valid argument - by that time we only had Winter maps and wetaher, and indeed cold Winter days are prone o bring the various pressure levels to lower true altitudes ( heights ) than ISA or Summer days. Problem is, since it's an aneroid that it's used to measure that pressure, we should see the same altiude in the altimeter, no matter if it's Winter or Summer, provided we have it set for QNH and make our experiments with the same QNH setting or the mission. I guess Han acknowledged there was a problem with this, and was going to ask, internally, for a fix, but I really don't know if it got fixed ?

 

Will check that again...

 

BTW: How can we edit missions that can be set in the QMB so that we can set the proper weather parameters ( wind, turbulence, pressure and temperature...) for testing ? 

Edited March 12, 2016 by The-UNINSTALLER

[jaydee]

My bad !... Amazing what can happen when you combine "Wishful Thinking" with Alcohol !

~S~

[CaK_Rumcajs]

Problem is, since it's an aneroid that it's used to measure that pressure, we should see the same altiude in the altimeter, no matter if it's Winter or Summer, provided we have it set for QNH and make our experiments with the same QNH setting or the mission.

This assumption may be wrong. It has already been explained here by Crump that it's a bit more complicated. The aneroids are a part of mechanism that is actually used to determine air density. The gear change is driven by air density which of course is a function of temperature and ambient pressure. Your statement looks like it was only a function of barometric pressure. We do not have a gauge to measure air density. There is nothing in the cockpit to use as a reference to check anything.

[Guest deleted@50488]

This assumption may be wrong. It has already been explained here by Crump that it's a bit more complicated. The aneroids are a part of mechanism that is actually used to determine air density. The gear change is driven by air density which of course is a function of temperature and ambient pressure. Your statement looks like it was only a function of barometric pressure. We do not have a gauge to measure air density. There is nothing in the cockpit to use as a reference to check anything.

Exactly,

 

so, IF it's only based on barometric pressure, density could not be taken into account, unless the system is indeed more complex as you say Crump might have suggested, but I really don't know...

 

 

I can read this:

 

"Another way to deal with the need for very different pressure boosts at lower and higher altitudes was to give superchargers multiple speeds. This required a gear and clutch assembly controlled by the pilot. Some British Merlin superchargers had three speeds. The German DB 601 and DB 605 engines used in most Bf 109s carried this trend to the logical extreme. Using fluid coupling with the engine, their superchargers could vary boost smoothly over a considerable range. These adjustments, furthermore, were handled automatically by a barometric-based control. This freed the fighter pilot to concentrate on his opponent. - See more at: http://www.pacificaviationmuseum.org/pearl-harbor-blog/superchargers-and-turbochargers#sthash.ABJcimh4.dpuf"

 

 

From here: http://www.pacificaviationmuseum.org/pearl-harbor-blog/superchargers-and-turbochargers

 

BTW: and since some of us use both sims, I would like to state that it happens exactly the same way in DCS World, where you can easily test the stage transition in the D-9, occuring at a much lower "absolute" alitude / height in cold Winter scenarios than in hot Summer days.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Von-Queca

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Rumcajs is correct. Just after the initial 190 release there was a lengthy thread, with charts, and the conclusion was the gear change is based on density, not simply altitude. This was confirmed by the Devs as the way it is modeled.

[Jade_Monkey]

This post is a great example of why bringing evidence is so imoortant. A lot of the perceptions on the forums can be altered by other people's opinions.

This was hilarious.

[Willy__]

Can someone translate that into better terms ?

 

In addition, last week our engineers tested the planes turn time and climb rate, so we updated the Dev Diary #123 with the corrected data. Fw 190 flight model was also corrected (thanks to [i.B.]ViRUS for his cool finding of additional Fw 190 A-4 Lift-Drag curves) so its turn tume and climb rate correspond to the reference better.

 

Does it mean the 190 performance will be better or worse ?

Edited March 13, 2016 by Herr_Istruba

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Marginal improvement. Better climb rates at low and high altitudes, slightly worse at medium altitudes.

[LLv24_Vilppi]

Rumcajs is correct. Just after the initial 190 release there was a lengthy thread, with charts, and the conclusion was the gear change is based on density, not simply altitude. This was confirmed by the Devs as the way it is modeled.

Sorry, are you referring to this thread:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14420-reasons-why-i-severely-lowered-my-bos-flight-time-lately-bos/

 

I don't think it was shown anywhere conclusively that the gear change is indeed triggered by change in density.

 

In fact, the reply from the developers was that the supercharger gear change is correctly modelled using static pressure:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14420-reasons-why-i-severely-lowered-my-bos-flight-time-lately-bos/?p=229775

 

Or are you referring to another thread or post?

[JtD]

Rumcajs is correct. Just after the initial 190 release there was a lengthy thread, with charts, and the conclusion was the gear change is based on density, not simply altitude. This was confirmed by the Devs as the way it is modeled.

The conclusion still is the gear change is dependent on pressure, not density.

Fortunately, the devs never 'confirmed' they were modelling it wrongly, i.e. based on density. Otoh, it is very evident from the observable behaviour in game, that the gear change is modelled correctly, i.e. based on pressure.

Edited March 16, 2016 by JtD

[Guest deleted@50488]

The conclusion still is the gear change is dependent on pressure, not density.

Fortunately, the devs never 'confirmed' they were modelling it wrongly, i.e. based on density. Otoh, it is very evident from the observable behaviour in game, that the gear change is modelled correctly, i.e. based on pressure.

 

Exactly JtD, and thanks PitbullVicious ( what a tag :-) ) for reminding me of that thread, because I had lost it's link, and indeed it proves the way it works in il-2 BoS, which BTW is exactly the way the D-9 works in DCS ( sorry for bringing another sim for comparison, but its not to bash any of the two, but rather to prove they're both doing this exactly the same way, which I assume is the correct way... (*))

 

This also proves that both sims are indeed equally good in the fact that they model the effects of temperature on pressure gradient, something that is only modeled ( in PC / desktop sims that I know of ) in Aerowinx PSX ( the 747-400 simulator ), ELITE PC Software and Flight Gear. In MSFS, X-Plane, etc... there is no effect of temperature in the pressure gradient.

 

 

(*) Just to make sure I make my point, if in that other sim you create two missions, one in cold Winter the other in hot Summer, with the exact same QNH, and takeoff with your Dora, you'll be able ( using the info bar displayed with F2 which reads "absolute"/"true" altitudes (height) and TAS if you so set it for... ) to see that although in the altimeter the transition occurs at the exact same pressure altitude, the "true" / ISA / height will be lower in Winter than in the hot Summer day, and if you are flying near the mountains, you will have yet another good visual reference to check it :-)

This is indeed how it should be if the mecahnism used to change gear is basid on static pressure.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Von-Queca

[SYN_Vorlander]

My bad !... Amazing what can happen when you combine "Wishful Thinking" with Alcohol !

~S~

Happens a lot with me.