Non Aggressive AI a Co-Op Killer!

[WWGeezer]

Question:
In the latest version, the AI (in fighters) has become a lot less aggressive towards human players in multiplayer games 

Answer:
It's MP issue and it's not easy to fix (it was before last update for a long time). But we will do it one day.

 

I guess I am late to this dance, but geez!  Non-Aggressive AI is a game killer for us.

 

I spent the last week trying to figure out why the patrols I built all along the front would just roll on by like I wasn't even there.  I literally had six AI in two formations right underneath me and they didn't even blink.  I had to drop in on one group and fire on them to get them to attack and the second group just watched. 

 

We have been flying CO-Op & CO-Op Hybrid missions for years in both ROF and Il2 1946.    Aggressive AI is a key component to mission building and provides valuable practice as a squad.  Not only is it an immersion killer, but if the AI is not drawn to attack unless shot at, than the odds that you will even find them is greatly reduced on a large map.

 

"But we will do it one day" is not very encouraging.

[LaagPursuit]

This is historically accurate. IRL AI pilots were notoriously passive.

[tailwheel]

Maybe I should ship my AI opponents your way. In a FW-190 I attacked a flight of IL-2's. After expending all my ammo one of the planes pursued me all the way back to my base. I've had AI be passive, aggressive, blind, and kill me in one shot. The idea of having random skill level AI seems to be good and would keep us on our toes. (Alternately occasional easy ones may make us complacent, to our detriment).

[coconut]

 

 

"But we will do it one day" is not very encouraging.

I understand that feeling. Still, they've said they will fix it, so there's always that. I think it would be good if all the squadrons that fly coops against the AI showed themselves up to give an idea to the devs on how important that feature is.

 

In the mean time, your best bet might to create confrontations where AIs fight AIs. Then players can jump in the fight and immersion will be OK. There's a good chance an AI will take interest in you in the furball, and you avoid the ridiculous situation where you can fly in formation with you enemy.

 

Imagine a scenario where you have bombers with an escort and interceptors. Then throw in the players acting as reinforcements, and things can get interesting.

 

There is still a massive issue: when players fly bombers, they can safely disregard enemy fighters, because fighters are typically not threatened by bombers.

I think the issue the op means is the initial awareness/aggression, rather than how they act once engaged.

(I don't have enough SP experience recently (outside of qmb) to comment on the current status of ai initial aggression though)

 

It's important to note that SP is not affected. There the AI is behaving as it should.

[WWGeezer]

Yes Coconut has it right. We like to set up MP missions, but fly them as Co-Ops. It means others can join and fight on either side, but AI patrols defend key targets. We go into the night with a specific mission scenario and fly as a squad to complete the mission. The AI is a way to balance the sides and make sure you have enemies to engage. This is a great scenario to make sure you will have enemies to fly against even if the servers are lightly attended.

 

I had exactly the scenario occur Coconut described, flew for a half hour with a bomber and three escorts. Came to the target that was gaurded by two enemy patrols, high and low. They flew right past us.

 

I wonder if there are any other ways to fool them into attacking. I guess adding an friendly fighter to attack them is one approach. Have him shoot some flairs asking for help.

[WWPlague]

I don't understand how "breaking' the aggressive behavior in MP was even an option for the developers. Lets hope they either repair what they broke, as soon as possible, or roll back the part of the patch that broke the AI aggressiveness in a hot patch, until they figure out how to patch the game without cutting off one of its legs.

 

Edited twice for spelling.

Edited March 12, 2016 by WWPlagueWWPlague

[69th_chuter]

It can be hilarious in tanks, with T34s using AI Panzer IVs and STuGs for moving screens so you can't shoot them - lol.

[coconut]

chuter, I'm not sure what you meant to say, but AIs will attack you when you are in a tank.

 

Non-plane AIs (AA, tanks, vehicles, ships) will attack you, whether you are in a plane or a tank.

Plane AIs will attack you if are in a tank.

 

In other words, the problem is only with plane AIs versus player planes.

Edited March 12, 2016 by coconut

[WWGeezer]

I plan on doing some mission building experimenting to find a work around. Spawning a friendly AI that shoots a couple flairs and a subtitle announcing that the Enemy Patrol is engaged as they attack would not be too bad.

 

Coconut, do you know if the "cover" command works or is it the same bug? Will enemy AI cover a bomber that is being attacked by live pilots in MP? That gives me some options if it works

[coconut]

 

 

Coconut, do you know if the "cover" command works or is it the same bug? Will enemy AI cover a bomber that is being attacked by live pilots in MP? That gives me some options if it works

 

I've only tried it with an aircraft covering a ground target, which I'm not sure is even supposed to work. But in any case, it did not have the expected effect: I was able to make several passes on the ground object without having the AI supposed to protect it react.

 

It's worth trying with an AI covering another plane. 

[wtornado]

I am still waiting for a lobby type system and true co-op format.

 

Probably why I am stooped at Battle of Stalingrad pending the co-op

format release.

 

They nailed me with Cliffs of Dover with no co-ops.

[von_Tom]

 

No problem with AI in our squad co-ops. Perhaps it's the waypoint setting that makes them "dumb"?

 

von Tom

[WWGeezer]

Well I think I did everything you can do, set to Ace level, set waypoints to low priority, even added a command to attack all air targets in vicinity after reaching the waypoint. Could be it depends on the aircraft type too.

 

Von Tom, would be interested in looking at a sample mission from your squad if you are willing to share.

 

Will post under mission building once I have something that works reasonably well.

[coconut]

von Tom, I'm surprised it's working for you, considering Han confirmed the issue.

 

My bug report is in this post: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12258-autopilot-and-ai/?p=330548

 

I tried everything I could think of, and some more. Namely: attack area air targets, waypoints with low priority and complete order low priority. If you have a mission that works, I'd love to see it.

[No601_Swallow]

No problem with AI in our squad co-ops. Perhaps it's the waypoint setting that makes them "dumb"?

 

von Tom

 

But Tom it's hard to tell with our co-ops at the moment. We all end up in the same air space (due to P's great mission design) and it's tricky to know who's actually attacked (or started the aggressive maneuvering) first. Certainly with us, it just hasn't affected our experience at all, because all is chaos in a fighter-vs-fighter engagement, and our ops tend to be so terrifying in any case. There's no question that the AI fights back. But as for initiating, the proof of the pudding for us will be if AI attack us if we're in bombers/ground attack missions. (Coming soon to a campaign near you...!)

 

In any case, I'm very confident it's a temporary bug that'll be squashed pretty quickly - if bug it is!

I am still waiting for a lobby type system and true co-op format.

 

Probably why I am stooped at Battle of Stalingrad pending the co-op

format release.

 

They nailed me with Cliffs of Dover with no co-ops.

 

Honestly, at the risk of retreading a previous discussion, the lack of dedicated coops is simply a non-issue for us (and coops is almost all we do as a squadron). This is almost entirely due to how missions work in this particular sim and how events within missions are triggered. 

 

Yes, I miss Hyperlobby, but apart from the nostalgia factor, it's not an issue for us as a squadron.

 

Incidently, there are several mission types which are either relics of RoF mission modes or unactivated "placeholders" for future ME development, so who knows? Maybe we'll get coop mode with a capital "Co" eventually!

Edited March 12, 2016 by No601_Swallow

[WWGeezer]

Co-op is more about mindset than software.  Flying as a squad, with a real mission, real assignments.  Some of the greatest immersion in a flight sim I have had was trying to land in one piece when you had the films from your trenchmapping assignment and you knew the squad was relying on to you completing the mission.  Your heart is racing and as you roll out in front of the hanger and turn off the engine you are physically spent.  Great stuff!

 

MP mission format works fine for Co-ops (as long as the bad guys do their job!!) and is akin to the Il21942 Dogfight type Co-ops where you could respawn if you crashed your plane.

[von_Tom]

Geezer pm me your email address and I'll send you some missions and you can see what the AI do. Let me know LW or VVS or I'll just send you a selection (credits for the missions solely to Prangster).

 

I do think that AI initiate the combat but sometimes it is hard to tell.

 

von Tom

 

ps Swallow on your air race the added AI sure like attacking me when I'm just trying to get to the finish line...

 

pps Mind you so do squad mates who are supposed to be on my side...

[WWGeezer]

wow.....high cover worked.  I had three enemy planes flying a circuit, sent an AI fighter to attack them.  Had a second group of AI waiting and gave them the command to provide high cover to the lead of the first group.  Within a few seconds after the command they descended on the AI attacker. 

 

Complicated but looks like a work around.

[coconut]

AIs attacking AIs in MP has always worked, including cover. The problem is that as a human player you could probably enter such a furball and be relatively safe. If you don't know about the issue, it's probably the best smoke-and-mirror system to give the illusion to human players that they are participating in a fight, but what they will really be doing is shooting AIs fighting against each other.

[GridiroN]

The only real problem with the Ai i've ever had was 1) in bombers and drive bombers, their tail gunners were laser accurate, but this seems to have been fixed. and 2) they were able to acquire targets from unrealistic distances. You'd see a spec across the sky flying in opposite directions and all of a sudden, he's on you. Also made it very hard to ever lose them on your tail because they didn't appear to be using realistic viewing angles. Almost as if the plane is being treated as the Ai, not the theoretical pilot inside the plane. 

[WWGeezer]

hmmm....but once they get shot at by a live pilot they become active right?  I sure seemed to get shot at once I got into the fight with all of them. 

[coconut]

 

 

hmmm....but once they get shot at by a live pilot they become active right

I think so, yes. I think it might also be the case that if they are in flight, they'll defend their wing or leader, but I'm not sure.

I had a fight with bf110s today, and they stayed aggressive and committed after being provoked.