Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW ?

March 30, 2016

Not true on my pc... Stabilizer axis moves almost at the same speed in the cockpit as I move my axis...

Use the stab on an axis with the E7 and you will make any Russian fighter stall in turn if they follow you, except the i16 maybe, but you could keep a turn fight with it...

Even if the speed of the in game stabilizer is reduced, it is still pretty unrealistic, because the player have one instant action to do to change this setting, while trim require a several second push on a button, and no physical marker on the joystick device to show what position of trim you have.

Not having the stab on an axis on planes allowing it is like shooting your foot at point blank with a shotgun right now.... It gives so much advantage as turning with the stab is much less likely to make you stall than using the stick when instant turning violently....

As much as reseting you pitch trim on a la 5 to make one super crazy turn...

I would say no axis for triming or stabilizing would be much better .... For realism purpose

And for the record, I already reported the abuse of stabilizer back in BOS early access time.

It was worst then, because you could even aim and correct aiming instantly with the stab, which on some hardware JS was much more precise than the stick.

Have you tried using buttons for the stab. IT'S THE VERY SAME RESULT.

Honestly you should test something before you clam otherwise. BOTH button and axis take about two seconds to reach full defection. It's very easy to test.

Anyway flying the 190 with trim BUTTONS I can set up the same cheat with target or saitec software. This is an old and foolish auguement.

March 30, 2016

Have you tried using buttons for the stab. IT'S THE VERY SAME RESULT.

Honestly you should test something before you clam otherwise. BOTH button and axis take about two seconds to reach full defection. It's very easy to test.

Anyway flying the 190 with trim BUTTONS I can set up the same cheat with target or saitec software. This is an old and foolish auguement.

What's odd is that my test have proven the opposite. If I use the buttons it takes approx 5 sec to reach maximum stab deflection while the axis takes about 2 seconds, why the disparity?

March 30, 2016

Simply look at your outside elevator. Unless this was hiden in a patch you should get same results. I always tested the f4. Which plane are you testing?

March 30, 2016

It was F4, but the same for 202 and G2. Is there a way to adjust the speed at which button presses preform their action? Because the prop RPM on the Pe-2 moves so slow that changing it is a chore and I have been searching for a way to increase the speed at which the keys adjust the RPM and stabilizer. I have been searching for a while too, but to no avail.

March 30, 2016

The in game tech heads up takes about a second to reach 100 to -100 while the outside stab takes around 2 seconds to come to a rest. Unless they have changed something in last few patches (dont think so) it should be just like that. Buttons were mapped to X52 and now my warthog. Both were the same. At the beach now, I will be interested in testing when I get home.

March 31, 2016

By the way the stab advantage is nothing new. It was like that two years ago. It has nothing to do with buttons or axis. It's how the stabilizer has always worked in this game. The good 109 pilots have always cranked the stab for those snap shots. 190s too. (In game trim tabs do not give this advantage)

If one leaves the stab cranked try rolling the nose under. It really screws things up for the 109.

In the end, cheaters will cheat, give me my axis trim!

Edited March 31, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Snake9

March 31, 2016

So much for this being the be all and end all of WW2 air combat simulations...

Were not the guys using this hack on their 109s the same one complaining about the flaps on the Yak???????

Is it any wonder this genre is on life support.

I'm done.

March 31, 2016

none of this matters anyway because we are way off topic. What I would like is an unlock for the yak that would essentially be the replacing of the panel behind the pilot with plexiglas, like the known modifications that were discussed earlier in the thread.

Sure, everyone would use it, but I imagine it would come with a loss of pilot protection from the aft and a higher chance of a pilot kill.

But... C'mon...

Us VVS guys need a break. Our aircraft have few performance advantages and besides, it would be damn nice to at least see the guy who is shooting us.

March 31, 2016

Have you tried using buttons for the stab. IT'S THE VERY SAME RESULT.

Honestly you should test something before you clam otherwise. BOTH button and axis take about two seconds to reach full defection. It's very easy to test.

Anyway flying the 190 with trim BUTTONS I can set up the same cheat with target or saitec software. This is an old and foolish auguement.

Exempt with my axis, I set my axis where I want it, and stop thinking about it.... While with a buttons I have to keep pushing it while still piloting, firing rolling etc.... Makes a world difference

March 31, 2016

Debates like this remind me of the day shift/ night shift crying that goes on any place 2 shifts like that exist.

The day shift complains the night shift does nothing, the night shift complains the day shift does nothing. Best way to beat that issue is make the day shift night shift and night shift day shift.

Switch shifts every 2 weeks and something amazing will happen!

No more complaining.

Someone needs to set a server where both sides fly the same aircraft. Of course few people will participate, what would they shed tears over?

March 31, 2016

Yesterday I flew German for a sortie while 6./ZG26 and friends flew Soviet on 72/DED.

Two things people conveniently omit: the Bf-109 has horrible visibility to just about all directions, and it is nothing short of a pain in the rear to handle since it has no adjustable trim or equivalent outside of the stabiliser and it departs extremely easily from controlled flight.

Despite the reduced engine workload, the pilot needs to be twice as watchful of surroundings and fly with constant rudder and aileron input including during cruise. Stall characteristics are also nasty, and just about any dipping of the nose can cause departure.

How this translated in practice: I was insufficiently wary of contacts, was bounced because of that and when trying to react to the attack ended in a spin. After recovering, the assailant showed up behind me again and shot up the engine then ripped the rudder off, demonstrating another weakness in terms of durability.

What I mean to say here is, even if we go by the aircraft themselves the Soviet and German designs have strengths and weaknesses that can both be offset by practice and a good handling of the aircraft, evening out the playing field.

March 31, 2016

Yesterday I flew German for a sortie while 6./ZG26 and friends flew Soviet on 72/DED.

Two things people conveniently omit: the Bf-109 has horrible visibility to just about all directions, and it is nothing short of a pain in the rear to handle since it has no adjustable trim or equivalent outside of the stabiliser and it departs extremely easily from controlled flight.

Despite the reduced engine workload, the pilot needs to be twice as watchful of surroundings and fly with constant rudder and aileron input including during cruise. Stall characteristics are also nasty, and just about any dipping of the nose can cause departure.

How this translated in practice: I was insufficiently wary of contacts, was bounced because of that and when trying to react to the attack ended in a spin. After recovering, the assailant showed up behind me again and shot up the engine then ripped the rudder off, demonstrating another weakness in terms of durability.

What I mean to say here is, even if we go by the aircraft themselves the Soviet and German designs have strengths and weaknesses that can both be offset by practice and a good handling of the aircraft, evening out the playing field.

This doesn't change the fact that I think it would be nice to have an unlock for the Yak that allows for better rear visibility like the known modification it had at the real battle of Stalingrad. I think it would be a good stop-gap measure instead of making a new aircraft all together like the thread title suggests.

March 31, 2016

This doesn't change the fact that I think it would be nice to have an unlock for the Yak that allows for better rear visibility like the known modification it had at the real battle of Stalingrad. I think it would be a good stop-gap measure instead of making a new aircraft all together like the thread title suggests.

i definitely would be a better option than a new plane, but honestly the visibility is already a strongpoint of the yak... At that rate i want to see a prototype Erla-Haube as a trade-off!

March 31, 2016

Yesterday I flew German for a sortie while 6./ZG26 and friends flew Soviet on 72/DED.

Two things people conveniently omit: the Bf-109 has horrible visibility to just about all directions, and it is nothing short of a pain in the rear to handle since it has no adjustable trim or equivalent outside of the stabiliser and it departs extremely easily from controlled flight.

Despite the reduced engine workload, the pilot needs to be twice as watchful of surroundings and fly with constant rudder and aileron input including during cruise. Stall characteristics are also nasty, and just about any dipping of the nose can cause departure.

How this translated in practice: I was insufficiently wary of contacts, was bounced because of that and when trying to react to the attack ended in a spin. After recovering, the assailant showed up behind me again and shot up the engine then ripped the rudder off, demonstrating another weakness in terms of durability.

What I mean to say here is, even if we go by the aircraft themselves the Soviet and German designs have strengths and weaknesses that can both be offset by practice and a good handling of the aircraft, evening out the playing field.

Very interesting is it to read about 'nasty Stall characteristics' and 'any dipping of the nose can cause departing'

When the 109 was known for very gentle stalls and the bunting maneuvre was a standard evasion tactic during the BoB.

March 31, 2016

I personally don't really find much issue with the 1942 aircraft in terms of visibility. You can get a good view of the rear quarter by going to the window, looking back and pushing the rudder a little.

What I want is an early-mark Airacobra with the armoured glass instead of the armour plate. The cockpit is dreamy!

March 31, 2016

Very interesting is it to read about 'nasty Stall characteristics' and 'any dipping of the nose can cause departing'

When the 109 was known for very gentle stalls and the bunting maneuvre was a standard evasion tactic during the BoB.

Ingame the 109 is one of the plane (if not the plane) with the nicest, cleanest behavior.

Any plane is crap if you fly them like crap.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Turban

March 31, 2016

I will never understand why you have to jump from one subject to another one.

We were talking to the stabilizer trim ,and now,you will talk about......new planes or what else?

It's hard to follow the same subject without disclosing to other things?

I do not wonder that we are not taken into account by developers in this...Talking Show.

Regard

Edited March 31, 2016 by ITAF_F_Baracca

March 31, 2016

Ingame the 109 is one of the plane (if not the plane) with the nicest, cleanest behavior.

Any plane is crap if you fly them like crap.

While your first sentence doesn't say anything about the forgiveness of the 109 and the inability to use a often used tactic, I fully agree with your second sentence.

March 31, 2016

While your first sentence doesn't say anything about the forgiveness of the 109 and the inability to use a often used tactic, I fully agree with your second sentence.

He's just got it out for anything Luftwaffe - look at all of his posts in this thread.

Engine management is easier in a 109/190 like it should be. They are both, however, full of their own quirks and can be dastardly to fly in their own right.

March 31, 2016

He's just got it out for anything Luftwaffe - look at all of his posts in this thread.

Engine management is easier in a 109/190 like it should be. They are both, however, full of their own quirks and can be dastardly to fly in their own right.

Trying to derail the thread ?

i never said russians planes had bad "flying behavior". I was discussing "flying performance" previously Different topic.

So your remark on my previous posts in this thread is nonsensical.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Turban

March 31, 2016

Trying to derail the thread ?

i never said russians planes had bad "flying behavior". I was discussing "flying performance" previously Different topic.

So your remark on my previous posts in this thread is nonsensical.

Nah, it's really not because nobody is accusing you of stating that the VVS aircraft have "bad flying behavior."

It is completely evident from your previous posts in the thread that you're not going to accept any amount of reason a person can approach you with because you've got it out against the Luftwaffe aircraft.

Those ezpz 109's, right?

*passive aggressive wink because I'll pretend, like you, that doing so validates my statement

Edited March 31, 2016 by Space_Ghost

March 31, 2016

Nah, it's really not because nobody is accusing you of stating that the VVS aircraft have "bad flying behavior."

It is completely evident from your previous posts in the thread that you're not going to accept any amount of reason a person can approach you with because you've got it out against the Luftwaffe aircraft.

Those ezpz 109's, right?

*passive aggressive wink because I'll pretend, like you, that doing so validates my statement

Let me brake it down :

In this thread I have been saying it would be nice for the VVS pilots to get a newer faster Yak.

Then I stated the 109 isn't a nasty aircraft to fly e.g it's stall aren't "nasty".

What's your problem with that? You realize it's two different topics ? Performance Vs Behavior ?

Because I talked "performance" you think I'm not allowed to comment on "behavior" ?

You come to me with "oohh booo you're a luftwaffe hater", then you talk about "reason"?

March 31, 2016

Somebody is intent on getting a name for themselves

March 31, 2016

Somebody is intent on getting a name for themselves

If only some people would use their energy and focused anger to make a bit of height in their planes....

March 31, 2016

-snip-

You come to me with "oohh booo you're a luftwaffe hater", then you talk about "reason"?

-snip-

I "came to you" with what is evident by your statements and behavior.

Hope that helps!

March 31, 2016

I "came to you" with what is evident by your statements and behavior.

Hope that helps!

So many people here like to come here discuss their theory about other people's mindset it feels like it's a social study forum.

What appears evident to you regarding my character is irrelevant to the discussion that was going, so keep it to yourself.

Talk about the planes, talk about the 109 stall or the yak speed or the planeset or whatever topic is at hand, but not about what you think you know about how I think, no one cares about that !!!

Edited March 31, 2016 by Turban

March 31, 2016

-snip-

What appears evident to you regarding my character is irrelevant to the discussion that was going, so keep it to yourself.

Talk about the planes, talk about the 109 stall or the yak speed or the planeset or whatever topic is at hand, but not about what you think you know about how I think, no one cares about that !!!

Nobody said jack shit about your character so what you're on about I have no clue and no care for - all observations I have made about your posts are, again, based off of your posts... Imagine that!

Stop trying to derail the thread and admit the fact that you just have a personal bias against the Luftwaffe aircraft - you wouldn't be so hell-bent on trying to spin that any other way if it weren't true.

For the record, I will not heed to your suggestions on what or what not to post - every granular, practical, sense-making post in this thread about aircraft "behavior" or "performance" (how impressive of you to try to debate semantics... ) you refused to accept - that sounds like a personal problem... Like having it out for the Luftwaffe aircraft and being unable to accept any reasonable statements that challenge your opinion... Or perhaps it's the mental anguish and discomfort that you experience from the fact that many of the statements have been reasonable and challenge your preconceived notions - that's called cognitive dissonance.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Space_Ghost

March 31, 2016

Nobody said jack shit about your character so what you're on about I have no clue and no care for - all observations I have made about your posts are, again, based off of your posts... Imagine that!

Stop trying to derail the thread and admit the fact that you just have a personal bias against the Luftwaffe aircraft - you wouldn't be so hell-bent on trying to spin that any other way if it weren't true.

For the record, I will not heed to your suggestions on what or what not to post - every granular, practical, sense-making post in this thread about aircraft "behavior" or "performance" (how impressive of you to try to debate semantics... ) you refused to accept - that sounds like a personal problem... Like having it out for the Luftwaffe aircraft and being unable to accept any reasonable statements that challenge your opinion... Or perhaps it's the mental anguish and discomfort that you experience from the fact that many of the statements have been reasonable and challenge your preconceived notions - that's called cognitive dissonance.

No, I don't have a bias against Luftwaffe aircraft.

You are the one unable to accept reasonable statement , since you came out of the woods to attack me after I stated that the 109 doesn't have nasty stalls.

From this particular statement from me:

Ingame the 109 is one of the plane (if not the plane) with the nicest, cleanest behavior.

Any plane is crap if you fly them like crap.

you started this, by attacking me on "who you think I am".

You didn't attack my statement. You didn't talk about the 109 stalls, if they are nasty or not. You attacked me directly. You started this.

I couldn't care less about what you post mate. Keep posting about me and what you think I am all you want. I was only trying to save you from looking like a fool when you discuss me instead of the planes.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Turban

March 31, 2016

This Thread first made me laugh and now makes me sad. We all met online because we share a passion and spend our free time together. In my mind that should make us friends by definition. Too see people go at each other like is very sad and puts a bad light on all of us. The thing i truly love about the game is, that we can face each other in duells with the added thrill of knowing the guys on the other side, guys you respect and like, yet walk away and still do so afterwards, no matter the outcome. FNBF and the many other encounters (Looking at you Lucas )i made over the past months have really made it clear to me, that mutual respect and comeradeship is what keeps everything alive and can make us overcome all kinds of ingame-problems. Together. Im no angel myself - definitely not - but i still believe that's the way to go!

Could you imagine any other game/sport, let's say football, would be popular, if everyone hated each other and tried to bash the others? Oh wait...

March 31, 2016

Could you imagine any other game/sport, let's say football, would be popular, if everyone hated each other and tried to bash the others? Oh wait...

At least virtual pilots don't fake being shot down for an added advantage :D

March 31, 2016

Well said, Vade

Recently you've been the one to keep me in check - every time I fly without a wingman on 72AG/DED you appear to remind me of the horrible consequences of doing so

March 31, 2016

At least virtual pilots don't fake being shot down for an added advantage :D

They rather alt+F4 from the game :D

March 31, 2016

At least virtual pilots don't fake being shot down for an added advantage :D

Wait, isn't that what snapstalling and shooting white flares is for?!?

March 31, 2016

Exempt with my axis, I set my axis where I want it, and stop thinking about it.... While with a buttons I have to keep pushing it while still piloting, firing rolling etc.... Makes a world difference

Real trim wheels had markings and numberings for this very same reason. Lol

Wise man once said, if your in a hole, stop digging. Lol

Edited March 31, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Snake9

April 1, 2016

Home and able to test. I can say they slipped some changes in these last patches. Not big but changes.

First of all with the axis. (f4)

It now takes 3 seconds to reach full deflection. Increase of one second.

With the buttons.

It now takes 4 seconds to reach full deflection. Increase of two seconds.

Don't know if they changed this on purpose or accident. They should put things like this in patch notes. If they are working on trim maybe it's a good sign of bringing this sim "up to date" when it comes to trim and axis.

Hey 64 bit now, we are finally in the correct decade. Bring on axis.

April 23, 2016

Every couple of months, these boards take a brief nose-dive where all the talk is about some flight model, people behave like animals and the general atmosphere is unpleasant to say the least.

When this happens, the time comes to bring back a thread where actual useful discussion of fighter aviation tactics takes place thanks to the expertise of military pilots of today, of the past, and the passion of enthusiasts who are bent in a quest to learn more and sharpen their tactical knowledge.

To update the useful discussion that goes one here, I am pleased to announce that I have finally found a document containing both wartime and post-war writings on fighter aviation tactics by Aleksandr Pokryshkin, including very detailed entries on the tactical schemes that initiated this discussion. The material in question is a book Pokryshkin worked on until his death in 1985 called "Fighter Aviation Tactics". It was intended to be a guide all fighter pilots could go by, and was majorly based on his experiences flying all kinds of aircraft from the I-16 to the MiG-17. While he never saw the work published, his wife Maria Pokryshkina managed to compile his manuscripts, supplied combat notebooks and other relevant data, and with the help of the Pokryshkin Foundation "Fighter Aviation Tactics" was published in Novosibirsk, 1999.

The book is obviously in Russian, but you can take a look at the material here: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/167340654362361856/171415735879335937/-_-_1999.djvu

There are 392 pages of gold right there. While my time is limited I will translate these from beginning to end and publish them, chapter by chapter, with links here.

-

As a bonus, here goes a little story from the jet age by V. I. Tubarov, 1st class military pilot.

"It was clear that Aleksandr knew more than we did about the prospect of developing new aircraft. He knew a lot about radar scopes, radar-guided missiles and mainly new developments in the struggle for air supremacy. Many years later I heard from Hero of the Soviet Union Vladimir Nikolaevich Konadaurov about the test air combats between the MiG-21, MiG-23 and F-5A [actually an F-5E]. Much to his dismay, Konadaurov was not able to get on the tail of his enemy. At around that time the Sukhoi and Mikoyan designs were working hard on the Su-27 and MiG-29. After consulting with Pokryshkin, it became clear to me why Aleksandr Ivanovich told us that the MiG-21 and the MiG-23 were collective weapons, that they required perfect coordination between the pilot and the GCI officer. The enemy must be destroyed before meeting him in close combat. Alternatively, you should meet with him in a head-on course because otherwise the probability of visually acquiring the enemy in such situations is close to zero. The ace Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin talked to us about everything - it was his job to teach modern pilots new approaches to the organisation of aerial combat."

EDIT: One interesting thing I found flicking through the book was how great minds do think alike. In September-October 1941, Pokryshkin together with 55 IAP pilots devised a method of mutual protection while patrolling or escorting bombers. Instead of a static formation, single aircraft or pairs would fly a weaving pattern making turns towards each other, essentially drawing a scissor pattern. Far away from Moldova, US Navy aviator Jimmy Thach was working on exactly the same technique for the same purpose - preventing a high-performance enemy from getting a comfortable firing solution. Throughout the war, many aviators had their lives saved by Pokryshkin's "Scissors" and Thach's Weave.

Edited April 23, 2016 by 55IAP_Lucas_From_Hell

April 23, 2016

It is awesome what you found Lucas! Hopefully somebody will translate it

April 23, 2016

I volunteer to be this somebody, even if it takes some time

April 24, 2016

Tonight on WoL :

I took a trophy 109. That was amaziiiiiiiing, to be able to follow 109 in climbs,dive, in everything. AMAZING. Getting rid of the performance difference is something this game will absolutely need to survive.

Fighting against the odds all the time is fine but it gets old sometimes. Very, very old. Having competitive planes of both sides also allows for the flying technique to show, since the difference between the planes would be smaller. Right now even someone with lower skills but in a 109 can toast a good pilot in a russian plane. The russian planes sometimes just can't do it. They can't follow the speed, the maneuvers, both combined, etc.

I'm freaking dreaming of the day we get a russian plane that isn't outclassed. That would be phenomenal.

April 24, 2016

Tonight on WoL :

I took a trophy 109. That was amaziiiiiiiing, to be able to follow 109 in climbs,dive, in everything. AMAZING. Getting rid of the performance difference is something this game will absolutely need to survive.

Fighting against the odds all the time is fine but it gets old sometimes. Very, very old. Having competitive planes of both sides also allows for the flying technique to show, since the difference between the planes would be smaller. Right now even someone with lower skills but in a 109 can toast a good pilot in a russian plane. The russian planes sometimes just can't do it. They can't follow the speed, the maneuvers, both combined, etc.

I'm freaking dreaming of the day we get a russian plane that isn't outclassed. That would be phenomenal.

And here is where we have one of the two sides of this argument. The one is that the sim should include aircraft that are historically relevant (in BoS case its major types from November 1942 to February 1943) and the other is in a multiplayer dogfight setup where the history matters less and its the absolute performance and overall competitive advantage between the types that matters most. On the Eastern front, especially into 1943, those two approaches come fairly close to each other.

The topic of this entire thread hilariously throws out history (and probably balance even) when mentioning the Yak-3...But yeah... the Yak-9 would be a nice addition to the series. It still won't really tip the balance by that much. I'm still hoping for a mid 1943 East Front scenario next. That would overlap nicely with what we have already.

Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW ?

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