Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW ?

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

I fly mainly VVS aircraft and I would seriously like to see older models of current aircraft in the sim like lower series of Yak-1, Yak-7, Lagg-3 to further improve historical variety of the sim. I really don't care if some aircraft flies 5 km/h per hour faster or climbs 1 m/s slower... In my opinion, this is important for some dogfight servers, where it is more about sport than some historical simulation. We now have the wonderful Pat Willsons Campaign Generator where you can use these aircraft in proper historical manner and try to survive the whole Stalingrad campaign without getting killed and caring for your aircraft and wingmen - it is much bigger challenge than racking up some kills on a dogfight server in my opinion.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I dont need to proof anything.This is just ordinary forum discussion,not an exam. Take it,or leave it, I really dont care. I put a source in my response. I really dont understand whats your problem. 

 

 

Thats your thought,not mine.

 

You're a funny guy.

 

Thanks for the laugh. 

[Brano]

You're a funny guy.

 

Thanks for the laugh.

You are welcome.You're a funny guy as well :D

Anyway,no hurt feelings,let's get back on topic.

[Monostripezebra]

 So ... I guess you're not facing the fact.

 

 

 

A simple "I´m sorry" would suffice...

 

you know, sometimes when you go round on the forums saying it wasn´t you and that you would much rather laude a players skill then insult them for shooting you down and then get proven wrong.. it´s just time to say "I´m sorry, I was angry!" rather then trying to further slander people. Toxic attitude is not getting any discussion anywhere.

[Bearcat]

I have edited this thread.. Please try to keep it civil.

[BlitzPig_EL]

[Brano]

Nice picture,showing some of those improvements in terms of aerodynamics recommended by TsAGI. Exhaust pipes on previous series were twisted a bit downwards. On this model you can see them directed rearwards,adding a bit of thrust + upper and lower fairing in shape of narrow metal stripe covering them around. This aircraft is probably from beyond 22.series,with antena mast still protruding from fuselage.Later series did not have it. We can also see changes in water radiator outlet flap - it has raised side walls improving air streaming. Oil radiator outlet is also moved down a bit to improve cooling. Air intakes for engine in the wing roots are also improved,twisted a bit downwards with better hermetization.

[Sparviero_ITA]

Hi,

Does somebody know if Yak-3 or Yak-9 VVS fighters will be available soon in BOS/BOM to offer the Russians pilots a chance to challenge seriously the LW fighters before to be borrowed to act as some easy moving targets for their FW-190, Me-109 F4 ,F2 and E ?

 

On one hand the Russian pilots have only ONE fighter that can fly above the 600 Km/h (the Mig-3) and even if it's a good B&Zoomer, it's not what we can call a good plane for dogfighting.

On the other hand, all the German fighters are at least 70Km/h faster than the Red fighters... That's not fair, imho.

 

Thanks

 

Hi!

There will be very soon the new entry soviet planes....YAK-130 and MIG-29 ,and for LW the Zeppelin fury!

 

PS.

I want to tell you a secret !

Try to fly over 4500-5000 mt...and you will have all the chance to engage so many contacts whitout problems,mostly, whit yours machine gun ShVAK !

Yak-1 can arrive to 750 kmh in B&Z whitout problems whit unbelived maneuverability ( you can pull up so strongly where FW-190 and BF-109 they break the flaps),and MIG-3  it's a formidable plane in high speed/high altitude.

Dont say it to yours friends..because Axes have already enough problems even whitout give you this obvious strategy !

Edited March 22, 2016 by ITAF_F_Baracca

[ACG_pezman]

Hi!

There will be very soon the new entry soviet planes....YAK-130 and MIG-29 ,and for LW the Zeppelin fury!

 

PS.

I want to tell you a secret !

Try to fly over 4500-5000 mt...and you will have all the chance to engage so many contacts whitout problems,mostly, whit yours machine gun ShVAK !

Yak-1 can arrive to 750 kmh in B&Z whitout problems whit unbelived maneuverability ( you can pull up so strongly where FW-190 and BF-109 they break the flaps),and MIG-3 it's a formidable plane in high speed/high altitude.

Dont say it to yours friends..because Axes have already enough problems even whitout give you this obvious strategy !

If I take a Yak-1 into a dive at 750kph I'm losing my ailerons. Nothing can out maneuver a FW-190 at speeds that high.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I think that whole post was rather tongue in cheek

[ACG_pezman]

I think that whole post was rather tongue in cheek

Well if it is then: haha

 

Also, it fooled me.

[Sparviero_ITA]

I think that whole post was rather tongue in cheek

 

HI

 

I do not know exactly what you do for lose the ailerons whit YAK-1.......but to me does not happen to 750 Kmh, it has been tested few time in quick mission,and not only by me ,and in any case,the mine was only a suggestion !

 

But anyway...if you like troll me,i will apologize for my intervention in this thread and...enojy and lose your ailerons...actually it's not my business.

 

PS.

 

Just in case:

A) FW-190 roll better that Yak1 (and this is historically proved) but....it's can not turn like the Yak1 (and even that is historically proved).

B) Follow in nosedive a FW-190 (if it possesses a good initial horizontal speed---> over 450 Kmh) whit same his altitude.....you will lose always the ailerons, but not whit a BF-109!

 

I repeat again....change tattic...when the FW begin the fast nosedive you have to follow his direction but keeping a slow nosedive,compared to him, to arrive to the your max speed ,and to be ready when you see that the FW will begin to go up again (FW cant survive whitout altitude because in maneuvered loses too much speed and it becomes easy prey ) ..and anticipates his ascent to shoot him when it will climb upwards,it's can not maneuver...it's all your!

 

In a nutshell .... do not give way to regain altitude and take it to nosedrive again.

 

 

Regard

Edited March 24, 2016 by ITAF_F_Baracca

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

OK, guess not. However, I do not recommend any of the tactics listed in the first post.

 

The pick a shallower angle to intercept, in your follow up, can be valid if the Fw jockey picks too steep of an anglle. That's more a mistake on the Fw pilot however. Nothing in the game dives with the Fw or has better handling above 750 kph.

[Sparviero_ITA]

OK, guess not. However, I do not recommend any of the tactics listed in the first post.

 

 

 

Hi

 

The mine suggestion was just a example for a compromise between fly safely and opportunities of advantage on the enemy.

That formula ..keep speed and altitude ...work in most cases,and it is still valid even in this era.

 

But i see that you are a expert,so if you know a tactic that works for every situation, please enlighten us !

 

Criticize without tips has never been a great help to anyone.

 

Regard

Edited March 25, 2016 by ITAF_F_Baracca

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

You can search my posts. I have made numerous tips and suggestions, including many on maintaining speed and altitude, over the years - particularly in regards to the Fw190. Not an expert. Just seasoned.

[beepee]

 

 

I pity the Devs for their decision to put the 190 in the game, I seriously do

 

I don't.

 

It's one of the best Jabos in game.

[Sparviero_ITA]

You can search my posts. I have made numerous tips and suggestions......

 

Hi

 

Sorry but i did not know about of your publications!

 

You sin just a little bit about presumption .....but it's acceptable by you! 

 

Over and Out

 

Regard

Edited March 28, 2016 by ITAF_F_Baracca

[ACG_pezman]

Hi

 

The mine suggestion was just a example for a compromise between fly safely and opportunities of advantage on the enemy.

That formula ..keep speed and altitude ...work in most cases,and it is still valid even in this era.

 

But i see that you are a expert,so if you know a tactic that works for every situation, please enlighten us !

 

Criticize without tips has never been a great help to anyone.

 

Regard

No trolling here, just a different perspective on soviet aircraft limitations. The only Soviet aircraft I can get to 750kph in a dive, without risking the loss of control surfaces, are the P-40, Pe-2, La-5, and LaGG-3. The Yak seems to max out at about 730kph with the Mig right around here as well... Maybe not as fast.

[Sparviero_ITA]

No trolling here, just a different perspective on soviet aircraft limitations. The only Soviet aircraft I can get to 750kph in a dive, without risking the loss of control surfaces, are the P-40, Pe-2, La-5, and LaGG-3. The Yak seems to max out at about 730kph with the Mig right around here as well... Maybe not as fast.

 

Hi

 

You're asking the questions and answers on its own and then .... you do not need help or advice, but of supporters for a petition against the FW-190.

 

Good luck!

 

Regard

[ACG_pezman]

Hi

 

You're asking the questions and answers on its own and then .... you do not need help or advice, but of supporters for a petition against the FW-190.

 

Good luck!

 

Regard

 

I don't know exactly what you mean with this.  I think that may stem from some confusion in our convo because of an error I made. 

 

See, I meant to quote the below passage in my previous response:

 

HI

 

I do not know exactly what you do for lose the ailerons whit YAK-1.......but to me does not happen to 750 Kmh, it has been tested few time in quick mission,and not only by me ,and in any case,the mine was only a suggestion !

 

But anyway...if you like troll me,i will apologize for my intervention in this thread and...enojy and lose your ailerons...actually it's not my business.

 

PS.

 

Just in case:

A) FW-190 roll better that Yak1 (and this is historically proved) but....it's can not turn like the Yak1 (and even that is historically proved).

B) Follow in nosedive a FW-190 (if it possesses a good initial horizontal speed---> over 450 Kmh) whit same his altitude.....you will lose always the ailerons, but not whit a BF-109!

 

I repeat again....change tattic...when the FW begin the fast nosedive you have to follow his direction but keeping a slow nosedive,compared to him, to arrive to the your max speed ,and to be ready when you see that the FW will begin to go up again (FW cant survive whitout altitude because in maneuvered loses too much speed and it becomes easy prey ) ..and anticipates his ascent to shoot him when it will climb upwards,it's can not maneuver...it's all your!

 

In a nutshell .... do not give way to regain altitude and take it to nosedrive again.

 

 

Regard

 

But instead of quoting this passage I accidently quoted this one from you:

 

Hi

 

The mine suggestion was just a example for a compromise between fly safely and opportunities of advantage on the enemy.

That formula ..keep speed and altitude ...work in most cases,and it is still valid even in this era.

 

But i see that you are a expert,so if you know a tactic that works for every situation, please enlighten us !

 

Criticize without tips has never been a great help to anyone.

 

Regard

 

So, I don't know if you might have thought that I was trying to troll you or rally against the 190, which I'm not on either. 

 

Either way, thanks for the good luck.

[Sparviero_ITA]

HI

 

First thing, if i misinterpreted your post i have to apologize to you.

 

I had understood that according to your point of view that FW-190 plane had too much chance when it's in nosedrive...and so you can not keeping up whit a YAK-1.

 

If it is right what i understand....that it is normal and right, as you will know, that it's a plane that does only one thing very well...fast and long nosedrive. (Jabo)

 

But there is not comparison in maneuvered against a Yak-1, and if you take the right time,it's very, very vulnerable.

 

And then not mention the problems which have all Germans fighters with that absurd-frustrating pitching FM effect...which does not happen with the Soviets models. (I will not lead to controversy ... but it is easily verifiable truth!)

 

I have always flown in the German faction in all simulators on WW2, because we have always play in that role, but you can believe me when i say that in BoS,for the frist time after 15 years in the SIM, i am beginning to hate this choice.

 

This does not mean that it is easier or that there is some sort of advantage to flies in the Soviet faction,absoluty not,but if we put it all on a balance...it's much more intuitive to fly whit a YAK-1,and more fun, that whit a FW-190 with that inexplicable behavior-effects.

 

Anyway,we are talking about a videogame..and not one forces anyone to play whit it...right? (I am talking about myself of course!)  

 

Regard

Edited March 29, 2016 by ITAF_F_Baracca

[ACG_pezman]

 

HI

 

First thing, if i misinterpreted your post i have to apologize to you.

 

I had understood that according to your point of view that FW-190 plane had too much chance when it's in nosedrive...and so you can not keeping up whit a YAK-1.

 

If it is right what i understand....that it is normal and right, as you will know, that it's a plane that does only one thing very well...fast and long nosedrive. (Jabo)

 

But there is not comparison in maneuvered against a Yak-1, and if you take the right time,it's very, very vulnerable.

 

And then not mention the problems which have all Germans fighters with that absurd-frustrating pitching FM effect...which does not happen with the Soviets models. (I will not lead to controversy ... but it is easily verifiable truth!)

 

I have always flown in the German faction in all simulators on WW2, because we have always play in that role, but you can believe me when i say that in BoS,for the frist time after 15 years in the SIM, i am beginning to hate this choice.

 

This does not mean that it is easier or that there is some sort of advantage to flies in the Soviet faction,absoluty not,but if we put it all on a balance...it's much more intuitive to fly whit a YAK-1,and more fun, that whit a FW-190 with that inexplicable behavior-effects.

 

Anyway,we are talking about a videogame..and not one forces anyone to play whit it...right? (I am talking about myself of course!)  

 

Regard

 

 

Yeah, I am still wondering why the dev's don't take the adjustable stabilizer off an axis input and make it a button input like the 190.  Even I know all you have to do is bind the adjustable stab and the pitch axes to the same axis and they will work together giving the 109 unrealistic pitch ability. 

 

No one complains about that though.  But yes, I have seen the nose of a 109 shoot up at all speeds because of that.  Add 20mm pods and you basically have a more stable, better climbing (albeit with less roll capability) FW-190.

 

But now that we have the Mig all the adjustable stabilizer in the world can't help them against a good VVS pilot who knows how to handle their bird.

[ACG_pezman]

Do people really do that?! If I get what you're saying, how would you trim for level flight, landing etc.?

 

I think trim/elevator should always be modeled to match the actual aircraft controls, a wheel/knob= axis,... buttons/switch= buttons/key press.

Yes they do.

 

You can easily bind the adjustable axis to "LShift+Joy1_x_axis" while making the pitch axis just "Joy1_x_axis."  Set up a key to be your modifier key and turn it on when you want the two axes to work together, flip it off when you want independent control over each.  It's very cheap and gives the 109 unrealistic turn characteristics.

 

There should be no way for an actual pilot to increase and decrease the adjustable axis as quick as it is in game.  And the speed at which the axis adjusts is much quicker when bound to an axis than it is if you use a key binding for it.  So, imo, it stands to reason that it could be easily fixed by making the adjustable stab a key binding only, just like the flaps in the 109.  And the flaps were operated by a trim wheel but they can only be used with a key binding in game.

 

Who knows though, I might be wrong.  Maybe, somewhere, there is some data on adjustable stabilizer reversal speeds and etc...

[Vade]

Yes they do.

evidence please? Besides, aren't the Yakflaps designed to counter this?   At any rate, fixing this like you suggested wouldn't make a difference to most people and if some pilots really abuse this it should indeed be fixed! 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Stab trim doesn't work faster than button trim. There's no difference other than that you have an easier time setting trim to a comfortable level compared to button pressing.

 

I do not see this as an issue though, neither incase of the axis trim nor the mentioned double axis binding. It's not giving any supstential benefit other than better initial turn rate at higher airspeed when elevator alone is not enough. You could argue flaps do the same and yet it seems to be less troublesome for people.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Asgar]

isn't that what people did? use the stabilizer to assist pulling out of dangerous dives?

[MeoW.Scharfi]

Yes stabilize your 109 in a turnfight as much as possible, it will fall down like a stone.

With Yak u have to press F and it releases Flaps faster than any other plane in the game.

[ACG_pezman]

evidence please? Besides, aren't the Yakflaps designed to counter this?   At any rate, fixing this like you suggested wouldn't make a difference to most people and if some pilots really abuse this it should indeed be fixed! 

Go into your settings and bind both "Plane Pitch" and "Adjustable Stabilizer" to the same axis then go join Berloga and mix it up.  You will see the advantage this provides.  That is the only evidence you really need.

 

Stab trim doesn't work faster than button trim. There's no difference other than that you have an easier time setting trim to a comfortable level compared to button pressing.

 

I do not see this as an issue though, neither incase of the axis trim nor the mentioned double axis binding. It's not giving any supstential benefit other than better initial turn rate at higher airspeed when elevator alone is not enough. You could argue flaps do the same and yet it seems to be less troublesome for people.

I have the Adjustable Stabilizer bound to a axis on my throttle for the exact reason that it is quicker for me to change my stabilizer with an axis command then by using a key command.  Flaps are less troublesome because the speed at which they extend has been limited to produce the effect of the pilot having to spin the flaps wheel.

 

isn't that what people did? use the stabilizer to assist pulling out of dangerous dives?

Yes it is.  However I doubt that the stabilizer was connected to the pitch axis on the aircraft to help them turn tighter when the fight devolves into a knife fight.

 

I'm not saying everyone does it but I am saying it is exploitable, unhistorical, and unrealistic.  Isn't that all the justification I need to assert we need a change?  Unrealistic behavior goes against the "accuracy" of our historical sim.  At least that is the argument everyone here on these forums have read for months/years concerning every little thing that wasn't right.  From Yak flaps to the 190 climb performance.

 

LW pilots in the 109 (in real life - WW2) didn't have the ability to connect the adjustable stab axis to the pitch axis, otherwise we would have had the beginnings of the stabilator which graces modern jet fighters today.

[Asgar]

Yes it is.  However I doubt that the stabilizer was connected to the pitch axis on the aircraft to help them turn tighter when the fight devolves into a knife fight.  

 

sry but... it's not making any turns tighter...the stall characteristics of the 109 stay the same. if you pull too hard you fall out of the sky. only thing the use of the stabilizer will do is make you stall even fster 

Edited March 29, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I have the Adjustable Stabilizer bound to a axis on my throttle for the exact reason that it is quicker for me to change my stabilizer with an axis command then by using a key command.  Flaps are less troublesome because the speed at which they extend has been limited to produce the effect of the pilot having to spin the flaps wheel.

You can physically deploy them faster to lets say 100% with a rotary / axis, yes, but ingame trim action is being executed at the same pace as button trim.

[ACG_pezman]

sry but... it's not making any turns tighter...the stall characteristics of the 109 stay the same. if you pull too hard you fall out of the sky. only thing the use of the stabilizer will do is make you stall even fster

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the degree to which the elevator deflects doesn't change despite the amount of adjustable stabilizer you add. So if you put full nose up adjustable stab (-100%) you still have 100% of elevator travel you can use, which would reduce the turn radius. It's not trim, it's an adjustable stabilizer. Trim takes away travel distance since its adding elevator input as you dictate (in-game) whereas that is not what happens in a 109 and 202. If you have speed then the end result is an extremely tight turn at high speeds. Might eat a lot of E but it shouldn't be possible to do it as it is in game.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

You can physically deploy them faster to lets say 100% with a rotary / axis, yes, but ingame trim action is being executed at the same pace as button trim.

This is the truth. Tested it myself.

 

This sim needs trim on axis. Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. Don't punish everyone else.

[Monostripezebra]

agree.. definatly confirmed

 

I never thought of it, but just tried it on the dogfight server and it definatly works on all planes with a trimable stabilizier.. with arguably the F4 beeing the worst OP plane turning tighter then the yaks. But even the macchi turns with the yaks when you bind the trim to stick inbut.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGtexCZxuCo

Edited March 30, 2016 by Dr_Zeebra

[Gambit21]

An old cheat used only by dweebs, even way back in the day.

I remember going head to head with some guy in a private room I set up, and over and over and over again he got the drop

on me. I rarely lost knife fights back then (I can't say I'm in such great form these days with little time to fly) and I couldn't figure out what was going on.

Probably a dozen times in a row he waxed me. He'd get on my 6 almost immediately not matter what I did and seemed to have a turn radius advantage

even though we were in the same plane. Then I figured out later what he was doing.

Dweeb.

[Trinkof]

This is the truth. Tested it myself.

 

This sim needs trim on axis. Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. Don't punish everyone else.

Not true on my pc... Stabilizer axis moves almost at the same speed in the cockpit as I move my axis...

 

Use the stab on an axis with the E7 and you will make any Russian fighter stall in turn if they follow you, except the i16 maybe, but you could keep a turn fight with it...

 

Even if the speed of the in game stabilizer is reduced, it is still pretty unrealistic, because the player have one instant action to do to change this setting, while trim require a several second push on a button, and no physical marker on the joystick device to show what position of trim you have.

 

Not having the stab on an axis on planes allowing it is like shooting your foot at point blank with a shotgun right now.... It gives so much advantage as turning with the stab is much less likely to make you stall than using the stick when instant turning violently....

 

As much as reseting you pitch trim on a la 5 to make one super crazy turn...

 

I would say no axis for triming or stabilizing would be much better .... For realism purpose

 

And for the record, I already reported the abuse of stabilizer back in BOS early access time.

 

It was worst then, because you could even aim and correct aiming instantly with the stab, which on some hardware JS was much more precise than the stick.

Edited March 30, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[ACG_pezman]

Imagine how much slower the 109's would turn (especially at high speeds) if the stabilizer was adjusted to prevent this exploit? 

[Asgar]

to "fix" the "problem" all they need to do is not allow trim to use the same axis as the pitch

Edited March 30, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[6./ZG26_Emil]

An old cheat used only by dweebs, even way back in the day.

I remember going head to head with some guy in a private room I set up, and over and over and over again he got the drop

on me. I rarely lost knife fights back then (I can't say I'm in such great form these days with little time to fly) and I couldn't figure out what was going on.

Probably a dozen times in a row he waxed me. He'd get on my 6 almost immediately not matter what I did and seemed to have a turn radius advantage

even though we were in the same plane. Then I figured out later what he was doing.

Dweeb.

 

[Matt]

to "fix" the "problem" all they need to do is not allow trim to use the same axis as the pitch

Then people would use third party software to set it on the same axis as pitch.

 

No real way to fix this. Some way to minimize the effect would be to set trim in stages (= no continous turning of the trim wheel possible, which is basically impossible anyway).

[Monostripezebra]

Imagine how much slower the 109's would turn (especially at high speeds) if the stabilizer was adjusted to prevent this exploit? 

 

Since I first used that exploit yesterday to test it, after I read your post, I definatly can...

 

That is the whole point where I´m coming from. To make matters worse, this exploit also gives better energy retention, I suspect due to the angle between stabilizer and elevator beeing used elsewhere in drag calculation. It´s a bit similar, but ultimatly worse to the flap effect.

 

 

I had kind of hoped for more interesting fights in F2 vs Mig setups which are a good match without anything, but using the stabilizer-exploit terminates that balance as well (or even more) as the non-exploit F2 is left in the dust by microflaps. Which is a shame, as yak vs 109 means basically strict boom-n-zoom engagements due to the way both planes are modeled. There is 0 point in turning for more then 45° for a shot in a 109 (without exploits) and that kind of makes for repetative gameplay which is cool on more complex, longer missions and tactical flying like during FNBF but a bit nuisance for all casual server people.

 

My new hope is a fix (I think it shouldn´t be hard to disallow the same joy axis beeing used for stab-trim and elevator) and the 109E vs I-16 because in the end, I´m sceptical that the mig-flaps will get looked into..  but that plane set is hardly ever gonna get a majority or exclusive use in an online scenario and thus I think things will pretty much stay the same.. I guess I better go back to RoF