Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW ?

[TheElf]

More Yaks!!!!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Let me just say this:  It would be nice to have better rear visibility in Soviet (minding the difference Lucas  ) aircraft and it does get very frustrating flying Soviet aircraft against the superior German aircraft.  I know, I fly Soviet pretty much exclusively unless the Luftwaffe is low on players, which is usually never. 

 

We will have newer Soviet aircraft at some point, but probably not in this expansion, and we just have to deal with it.  I share Turban's frustration and understand where he is coming from. 

 

You do have some options though Turban, as do all of us Soviet drivers.  First off I would recommend that you get PWGC and use it to thwart the uneven team balance on MP servers by playing that when it gets unfair.  It is nearly impossible to get our LW counterparts to fly Soviet aircraft, there are a few people who predominantly fly LW that will brave it (Manu is one I have noticed) and I appreciate them because they are doing more to increase the appeal of the game for everyone by keeping it, dare I say, fun?  The other is when teams are that unbalanced, join the heavy team and pile on.  It's boring for everyone and there will be a few stubborn holdouts on the allies, but it usually works after a bit and teams will even.

 

I think, as a mostly an allied player now, that even teams would go a long way in stamping out frustration.  It's one thing to be out preformed aircraft to aircraft, but another whole different thing when you are outnumbered 5:1 or 6:1 and out preformed.  Then I start to wonder if the Axis pilots even feel bad as they all swarm me to the point where it's fun to make them collide before one of them shoots me down.

 

TL;DR - we have no choice but to suck it up until something competitive at equal energy comes along.  Until then we either don't partake in MP (which is hard) or we have to take the time to give ourselves as much of an advantage as possible.

 

Just my two cents, no everyone pile on and flame me for defending my poor allied pilot brother who experiences the same crap we all do 

 

And sooner or later, we all snap.  I know I have. 

I'm a dedicated Luftie but I want to comment on one point.........and I've addressed it elsewhere. A common problem in flight sims in general is this; guys taking off from the nearest base and flying directly into the furball. Probably less so in the Expert servers but generally true of many pilots. It is very common practice in DF/Normal servers. Even when I saddle up in a 109 I rarely just firewall it and climb into the fray. Take some time, fly AWAY from the front, manage your engine, get some altitude and possibly dictate your engagement. There is rarely a time where flying into a furball while struggling for altitude and coming in underneath some portion of the fight is a good idea. I'm a very average pilot at best but I can dictate some portion of the flight by entering it smartly as opposed to maximum aggression as soon as the wheels are leave the ground. Control what you can, when you can, where you can. There are times you don't get to have a say in where you fight but much of the time you do.

 

I speak to the concept of leveling the fight, not you or any particular side.

Edited March 16, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I try to make the outnumbered experience fun. When one team outnumber the other by a factor of 8 to 1 for example, you have to stop flying conventionally and start a guerrilla air war.

 

The most pleasant flights I've made were either on even numbers or outnumbering the enemy. There, you can employ all the textbook stuff and watch it all come together seamlessly. On the other hand, the most exciting and adrenaline-inducing flights were the ones where I was outnumbered and had to use every last trick I know to get back home. Jumping a group of 4-6 enemy fighters alone, shooting down one and trying to reach home while also managing the rest of them is some good fun.

[Turban]

The Yak-7 was part of a separate line of planes that culminated in the Yak-9. The higher number doesn't mean it was necessarily "better" than the Yak-1.

 

In that post I was mentionning the Yak 7 because of the Velikie Luki context. And I meant Yak 7B

 

The Yak 1 and 7 are indeed from separate line and the Yak 1B might have actually been better than the 7B (?? not sure). However the Yak 7B (of the Velikie battle with bubble canopy with PF engine) was probably better than the Yak  ser 69. (90% sure) .

 

Again I only was mentionning the 7B because someone mentionned the Velikie Luki battle, and the Yak7B was there. Anyway, the Yak 7B was in service earlier than the 1B so it's the "most reasonnable" improvement we could have, the Yak 9 coming late 42/early 43 and the 1B even later.

Let me just say this:  It would be nice to have better rear visibility in Soviet (minding the difference Lucas  ) aircraft and it does get very frustrating flying Soviet aircraft against the superior German aircraft.  I know, I fly Soviet pretty much exclusively unless the Luftwaffe is low on players, which is usually never. 

 

We will have newer Soviet aircraft at some point, but probably not in this expansion, and we just have to deal with it.  I share Turban's frustration and understand where he is coming from. 

 

You do have some options though Turban, as do all of us Soviet drivers.  First off I would recommend that you get PWGC and use it to thwart the uneven team balance on MP servers by playing that when it gets unfair.  It is nearly impossible to get our LW counterparts to fly Soviet aircraft, there are a few people who predominantly fly LW that will brave it (Manu is one I have noticed) and I appreciate them because they are doing more to increase the appeal of the game for everyone by keeping it, dare I say, fun?  The other is when teams are that unbalanced, join the heavy team and pile on.  It's boring for everyone and there will be a few stubborn holdouts on the allies, but it usually works after a bit and teams will even.

 

I think, as a mostly an allied player now, that even teams would go a long way in stamping out frustration.  It's one thing to be out preformed aircraft to aircraft, but another whole different thing when you are outnumbered 5:1 or 6:1 and out preformed.  Then I start to wonder if the Axis pilots even feel bad as they all swarm me to the point where it's fun to make them collide before one of them shoots me down.

 

TL;DR - we have no choice but to suck it up until something competitive at equal energy comes along.  Until then we either don't partake in MP (which is hard) or we have to take the time to give ourselves as much of an advantage as possible.

 

Just my two cents, no everyone pile on and flame me for defending my poor allied pilot brother who experiences the same crap we all do 

 

And sooner or later, we all snap.  I know I have. 

 

Thanks for the kind words allied pilot brother that was a nice read  

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Pretty sure no Yak-7B was a razerback and like 150 heavier then Yak 1 s.69 with the same engine.

I don't see the Yak-7B having any performance advantage over the Yak-1, the advantages I do see however are better visibility due to extended canopy glass and firepower.

Edited March 16, 2016 by RoflSeal

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Its last production series added a bubble cockpit. It was essentially a Yak-9 by all means.

 

But that variant was so outlandish that it's hard to argue for it. The run-of-the-mill Yak-7B was heavier, but enjoyed better armament. I never got along with it in the old Il-2, and I would pick the baseline Yak-1 over it any day.

 

Some VVS units used their s.69 (essentially so-called Bs before the bubble pit) up until 1944, together with Yak-1Bs which were produced until 1944. These include expert regiments like 812 IAP. With the very same machines we fly, they worked their way into being the 5th most successful regiment during the war.

[Turban]

The Yak 7B had the PF engine around mid 42 and a bubble canopy. it was about 200kg more than a Yak 1 ser 69  but was faster at low alt. It carried 2 x 12.7 UBS mg vs the 2x7.62 of the Yak 1 ser 69.

It had slightly better turn rate (shorter wings?). Overall it was thought to be better than the Yak 1 , and almost equal to the Bf 109 except in vertical.

It replaced the Yak 1 on most production line for a reason. The canopy is something I like, and the 7B had it long before the 1B.

I'll gladly take any sources indicating any of this isn't true.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Turban

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Pilots liked it because it had two-way radio sets installed from the onset, little to do with flight characteristics.

 

I'm not so sure about the max speed or turn, I'll double-check later. In the oldie it always felt way too sluggish.

[Turban]

Pilots liked it because it had two-way radio sets installed from the onset, little to do with flight characteristics.

 

 

Sources ? Upgraded equipment was indeed something pilots appreciated. But they did also like flying characteristics.  It certainly was not just about the radio.

[Gambit21]

I try to make the outnumbered experience fun. When one team outnumber the other by a factor of 8 to 1 for example, you have to stop flying conventionally and start a guerrilla air war.

 

The most pleasant flights I've made were either on even numbers or outnumbering the enemy. There, you can employ all the textbook stuff and watch it all come together seamlessly. On the other hand, the most exciting and adrenaline-inducing flights were the ones where I was outnumbered and had to use every last trick I know to get back home. Jumping a group of 4-6 enemy fighters alone, shooting down one and trying to reach home while also managing the rest of them is some good fun.

Some of my most memorable CoOp missions were those when I was outnumbered 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 - good times.

I always fly the side that has the fewest numbers.

[Gambit21]

The fact that you came here, derailled the thread with an obvious personnal attack (I should stick toTomb raider), from the get go, because apparently you didn't like my type, says a lot about you too. 

 

While your study of my character is fascinating, maybe you could go talk about it somewhere else  and keep the discussion here centered on planes? 

 

That'd be great.

My last comment to you here will be that I wasn't really trying to point the Tomb Raider comment at you personally.

I was making a general, tongue firmly implanted in cheek point about mind-set and required tactics - but it seems to have you looping pretty badly.

It wasn't my intention to cause you an emotional melt-down.

 

The screen captures say it all.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Find pilot interviews and see, everybody liked the Yak-7 because it had 2-way radios. Back in the day, being able to work out the tactical situation in real time and get feedback from other pilots was worth much more than that extra 5km/h. The handling was extremely similar to the late-series Yak-1 but again, heavier and better-armed.

 

I hope they come out with a 'collapse of the Reich' expansion where the 109s and 190s will have to contend with the Yak-3 and La-7.

 

Wouldn't make that much of a difference - the Bf-109K and the Fw-190D provided a very even match, and the situation was more or less the one we have now. The Germans are faster, climb better, dive faster, have the edge at high altitude. The Soviets manoeuvre better, are lighter, have the edge at sea level despite lower maximum speed. Also, don't forget the Yak-9U there. What a fantastic machine it was, sleek aerodynamics and the Klimov 107 to power it. It had amazing performance at altitude as well.

 

If you are really dying for a technical performance edge, go chase those heavy late-mark Bf-109Gs and Fw-190As while flying La-5FNs, but it isn't really a necessity. Most of 16 GIAP flew P-39Ns and P-39Qs up to the end of the war, 240 IAP of Kozhedub and Yevstigneyev mostly flew our five-tank La-5 until the Spring of 1944 before switching to the La-5F, 812 IAP flew Yak-1s up until the summer of 1944... They were clearly doing fine

[Gambit21]

Early war match-ups/aircraft have so much more character IMHO.

More visceral somehow - I felt that way with the old IL2 and I'm glad that's the focus here for now.

[Turban]

Find pilot interviews and see, everybody liked the Yak-7 because it had 2-way radios. Back in the day, being able to work out the tactical situation in real time and get feedback from other pilots was worth much more than that extra 5km/h. The handling was extremely similar to the late-series Yak-1 but again, heavier and better-armed.

 

 

Do you have a link to those interviews ? Are they about the Yak 7B with PF engine I'm mentionning or about the original Yak 7? The stuff I read here and there is that the flying was better on the 7 (original) compared to 1 (original) and with the 7B with PF engine being another improvement from other yaks available at the time.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Turban

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Both versions. I don't have them but search around a little. SovietWarplanes had some, I believe.

[ShamrockOneFive]

The Yak 7B had the PF engine around mid 42 and a bubble canopy. it was about 200kg more than a Yak 1 ser 69  but was faster at low alt. It carried 2 x 12.7 UBS mg vs the 2x7.62 of the Yak 1 ser 69.

It had slightly better turn rate (shorter wings?). Overall it was thought to be better than the Yak 1 , and almost equal to the Bf 109 except in vertical.

It replaced the Yak 1 on most production line for a reason. The canopy is something I like, and the 7B had it long before the 1B.

I'll gladly take any sources indicating any of this isn't true.

 

About the bubble canopy... so far as I can tell that only started to happen in November 1942 and I've not seen a photo of of a Yak-7B with a cut down fuselage in a squadron until early 1943. It gets confusing seeing as there's a gradual transition between Yak-7B into the re-designated Yak-9. Similarly the Yak-1B with bubble canopy arrived on the scene late in 1942 and I've seen at least one photo suggesting that a bubble canopy Yak-1B was flying at Stalingrad. That would have been Eryomin's (Serial 08110) Yak-1B of 31 GIAP. The difference in time may have been a matter of weeks between the change at the factories for the two different types. BTW: There was no replacement of the Yak-1 on the production line that I've been able to find (if so I'd love to know the factory). The Yak-7 was a separate line evolving from the UTI-26 trainer.

 

EDIT: Apparently the Saratov Factory No. 292 began building the Yak-1B (bubble canopy) in September 1942 and it was November 1942 for the bubble canopy Yak-7B at Novosibirsk No. 153.

 

Early war match-ups/aircraft have so much more character IMHO.

More visceral somehow - I felt that way with the old IL2 and I'm glad that's the focus here for now.

I'm always curious about this line of thinking. The Yak-3 has a ton of character as does the long nose FW190D-9. I realize character is subjective but those two types are just as interesting as their earlier versions... Flying them is a different experience surely as the performance level is just that much higher and more refined (or compromised) but that adds to the character too

 

Do you have a link to those interviews ? Are they about the Yak 7B with PF engine I'm mentionning or about the original Yak 7? The stuff I read here and there is that the flying was better on the 7 (original) compared to 1 (original) and with the 7B with PF engine being another improvement from other yaks available at the time.

 

It may have been one of these interviews. http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/index.htm

 

They are totally fascinating looks into the memories and opinions of some of the Russian front line fighter pilots of WWII. You can see the priority they place on things including clear canopies and radios as well as a comfortable cockpit environment. Much more than a sim pilot in our comfortable chairs . Flying the plane is important too but you can see that creature comforts factor in much more in many of those interviews.

Edited March 17, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[Dakpilot]

There is some great info at this site with regards to interviews

 

http://iremember.ru/en/?PAGEN_1=5

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[IVJG4-Knight]

 

Perfect - best possible illustration of what/who we're dealing with here.

I remember these types of guys from back in the day too while hosting CoOps or flying in War Clouds and similar.

Never a "Good Kill" or "S!", but a instead a snide, whiny, insecure remark minimizing your kill.

Only team killers are more annoying.

I permanently banned more than one character like this from my CoOps.

 

 it's no wonder he can't get kills with an attitude like that. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I'm always curious about this line of thinking. The Yak-3 has a ton of character as does the long nose FW190D-9. I realize character is subjective but those two types are just as interesting as their earlier versions... Flying them is a different experience surely as the performance level is just that much higher and more refined (or compromised) but that adds to the character too

 

I'd say it's less about each aircraft having or not having character - which the Yak-3, Yak-9U, La-7, Fw-190D and Bf-109K do have - but more about how things went down between 1939 and 1942.

 

Each country that involved itself in the war had its own philosophy and conceptions about warfare, and based their designs on how this would play out against potential enemies. Later in the war, these designs were constantly upgraded, borrowing elements from the enemy and improving to match or surpass their performance. The early war scenarios allow you to see these designs in their original form, where the aircraft were so different they are hard to compare (for example, the Yak-1 and the Bf-109F are close matches in most aspects, while the MiG-3 and the Bf-109E each dominate the other at different ranges of their envelope).

[Turban]

About the bubble canopy... so far as I can tell that only started to happen in November 1942 and I've not seen a photo of of a Yak-7B with a cut down fuselage in a squadron until early 1943. It gets confusing seeing as there's a gradual transition between Yak-7B into the re-designated Yak-9. Similarly the Yak-1B with bubble canopy arrived on the scene late in 1942 and I've seen at least one photo suggesting that a bubble canopy Yak-1B was flying at Stalingrad. That would have been Eryomin's (Serial 08110) Yak-1B of 31 GIAP. The difference in time may have been a matter of weeks between the change at the factories for the two different types. BTW: There was no replacement of the Yak-1 on the production line that I've been able to find (if so I'd love to know the factory). The Yak-7 was a separate line evolving from the UTI-26 trainer.

 

EDIT: Apparently the Saratov Factory No. 292 began building the Yak-1B (bubble canopy) in September 1942 and it was November 1942 for the bubble canopy Yak-7B at Novosibirsk No. 153.

 

I'm always curious about this line of thinking. The Yak-3 has a ton of character as does the long nose FW190D-9. I realize character is subjective but those two types are just as interesting as their earlier versions... Flying them is a different experience surely as the performance level is just that much higher and more refined (or compromised) but that adds to the character too

 

 

It may have been one of these interviews. http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/index.htm

 

They are totally fascinating looks into the memories and opinions of some of the Russian front line fighter pilots of WWII. You can see the priority they place on things including clear canopies and radios as well as a comfortable cockpit environment. Much more than a sim pilot in our comfortable chairs . Flying the plane is important too but you can see that creature comforts factor in much more in many of those interviews.

 

Thanks for those info, I actually didn't know the Yak 1B had come before the 7B. I was pretty sure the 1B was from 43 and definitely didn't think they were at Stalingrad. In the end I have no preference between the 2 and was only looking at which one was the more relevant in the Stalingrad area.

I'll try to find where I read that the Yak 7 replaced the Yak 1 on the production lines.

 

While I haven't seen any direct detailled discussions about Yak 1/7 (so far, haven't read them all), those interviews are indeed a great read.

Actual "official" info seems hard to find regarding the 7B with PF engine/ 1B . I'd be very grateful if someone had something of this sort. Regardless of the thread, just for the sake of curiosity.

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Turban

[BlitzPig_EL]

The Yaks developed along two different lines, light fighters and heavier fighters.

 

Light development progression:  Yak1>Yak1b> Yak3

 

Heavy development progression:  Yak UTI-26 trainer>Yak7>Yak9

 

Please note that the numbers DO NOT follow in chronological order.  The Yak 3 came after the Yak 9.

 

Rough chronology, and really all you need to know:  Yak1, Yak7, Yak1b, Yak9, Yak3, though the 7b and 1b are sort of concurrent.

 

Yaks are a messy subject...

Edited March 17, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[Brano]

Yak 1b with lowered rear fuselage has been produced since Dec 42 from 111.series. Tried at Stalingrad till Jan 43 in 176.IAP.

Yak 7b with lowered fuselage has been tested in roughly same period,but in different area. 42.IAP at NW front.

Both machines have very similar performance in speed,climb and turning. Slight differences are marginal.

[Turban]

The Yak 1 got a lowered back and became the 1B in 42 . But that version didn't get the PF engine untill 43. For a while it only had the PA engine. That's why I was confused. The 1B with PF engine I had in mind only came in 43.

 

The 7 got a lowered back after the Yak 1 , but did get the PF engine in 42.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Yep, the details of the Yak development process are certainly messy indeed

[Brano]

No. In fact,Yak-1b is a postwar name from popular literature. There was no such type name in Yakowlev OKB. Changes were continuous. From Oct 42 series 99,there was change of armament from 2xShkas+1Shvak to 1 UBS+1Shvak.Followed up to Dec series 111 with retractable tailwheel,hermetisation of fuselage,aerodynamic streamlining to final lowered fuselage from s.111.

Yak-7 nomenclature was different,where 7A reffered to machines equipped with M-105PA engine,changed to M-105PF from may 42 and new designation 7B. From may 42 only PF Klimov were produced.Lowered fuselage was design feature implemented for both Yak-1 and 7 in roughly same time.

Yak-7B at time of Stalingrad battle were with high gargot/razorback with 2xUBS and 1Shvak. Later 7B with lowered rear fuselage had armament reduced to that if Yak-1"b". That change was introduced around inbetween 22.-32.series in early 1943.

[Turban]

No. In fact,Yak-1b is a postwar name from popular literature. There was no such type name in Yakowlev OKB. Changes were continuous. From Oct 42 series 99,there was change of armament from 2xShkas+1Shvak to 1 UBS+1Shvak.Followed up to Dec series 111 with retractable tailwheel,hermetisation of fuselage,aerodynamic streamlining to final lowered fuselage from s.111.

Yak-7 nomenclature was different,where 7A reffered to machines equipped with M-105PA engine,changed to M-105PF from may 42 and new designation 7B. From may 42 only PF Klimov were produced.Lowered fuselage was design feature implemented for both Yak-1 and 7 in roughly same time.

Yak-7B at time of Stalingrad battle were with high gargot/razorback with 2xUBS and 1Shvak. Later 7B with lowered rear fuselage had armament reduced to that if Yak-1"b". That change was introduced around inbetween 22.-32.series in early 1943.

 

While it's clear the Yak 7B didn't get a bubble canopy as early as I thought (earlier the the Yak1), I've seen many indication that it had it on the front in late 42, in the 42 IAP at least.

No hard date though.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Turban

[Monostripezebra]

 

And I wasn't in an Il2 anyway, so you must have been confusing me with someone else.

 

 

Nothing actually happened like Zeebra mentionned.

 

Worse case scenario after your high risk pass on my IL2 I praised your skill and courage

 

 

How's that relevant to this thread? 

 

You are not facing the facts. The first thing any pilot, virtual or real needs to learn is to be self-honest. No matter how much herostories you tell others in the bar on the ground, in the air one needs a very sober and clear taking the facts for what they are..

When you want a better plane, before even trying to see what can be done with the one you have, chances are a better plane won´t help you any.

You absolutly had a point with teambalance, that´s why I talked to you.. but your agressive attitude doesn´t motivate to change at all. Try friendliness and cooperation and you see that even seems to improve you planes performance.

 

I´m all for more planes but more 109 or Yak variants are not really interesting to me. Ok, the yak 7 as quasi "2-seater" does have some appeal to me.. landing and pretending to pick people up is fun... but I don´t see how any historical based new plane model for the same timeframe would beat the yak we allready have by a significant margin..

[Brano]

While it's clear the Yak 7B didn't get a bubble canopy as early as I thought (earlier the the Yak1), I've seen many indication that it had it on the front in late 42, in the 42 IAP at least.

No hard date though.

 

Indications ? I wrote that few posts above.If you want hard date,it was from 17.11- 13.12.1942. North-west front. 42.IAP (com.F.I.Shinkarenko) of 240.IAD,6.VA.

Army trials results:

240 sorties

6 air combats

4 enemy a/c destroyed (2xBf-109F,1xHs-126,1xFw-189)

1 own a/c shot down

 

EDIT: corrected mistype He-126 to Hs-126

Edited March 17, 2016 by Brano

[Turban]

You are not facing the facts. The first thing any pilot, virtual or real needs to learn is to be self-honest. No matter how much herostories you tell others in the bar on the ground, in the air one needs a very sober and clear taking the facts for what they are..

When you want a better plane, before even trying to see what can be done with the one you have, chances are a better plane won´t help you any.

You absolutly had a point with teambalance, that´s why I talked to you.. but your agressive attitude doesn´t motivate to change at all. Try friendliness and cooperation and you see that even seems to improve you planes performance.

 

I´m all for more planes but more 109 or Yak variants are not really interesting to me. Ok, the yak 7 as quasi "2-seater" does have some appeal to me.. landing and pretending to pick people up is fun... but I don´t see how any historical based new plane model for the same timeframe would beat the yak we allready have by a significant margin..

 

 

The Yak 7 (family, cince we're not talking about the original 7 here)was not limited to the two seater version. The combat version were very good and definitely a competitor to the Yak 1B and both were better than the Ser 69. So ... I guess you're not facing the fact.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Turban

[Asgar]

it's Hs-126   Henschel not Heinkel

[Turban]

Indications ? I wrote that few posts above.If you want hard date,it was from 17.11- 13.12.1942. North-west front. 42.IAP (com.F.I.Shinkarenko) of 240.IAD,6.VA.

Army trials results:

240 sorties

6 air combats

4 enemy a/c destroyed (2xBf-109F,1xHe-126,1xFw-189)

1 own a/c shot down

That late in 42 ? Well I guess it's settled then. Out of curiosity where do you get that info ? 

 

[Brano]

it's Hs-126   Henschel not Heinkel

Yep,my fat fingers over cell phone   Imagine I mistyped it as He-162 

 

That late in 42 ? Well I guess it's settled then. Out of curiosity where do you get that info ? 

 

 

From books 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

 

 

 

From books 

 

GG OP nice citation, would use that to pass my university degree.

[Asgar]

Yep,my fat fingers over cell phone   Imagine I mistyped it as He-162 

 

 

From books 

well, i hope we'll see it in the sim some day

[Turban]

Yep,my fat fingers over cell phone   Imagine I mistyped it as He-162 

 

 

From books 

Title? Books dealing about WWII planes are plenty...

[Brano]

GG OP nice citation, would use that to pass my university degree.

Well,Im not passing any exam here,but OK.

А.Т.Степанец : Истребители ЯК периода Великой Отечественной войны, Машиностроение, 1992

 

To add to it (to be academic) he takes this info from ЦАМО, ф. 35. оп. 11287, д. 1452

Edited March 17, 2016 by Brano

[Turban]

Well,Im not passing any exam here,but OK.

А.Т.Степанец : Истребители ЯК периода Великой Отечественной войны, Машиностроение, 1992

 

To add to it (to be academic) he takes this info from ЦАМО, ф. 35. оп. 11287, д. 1452

 

Oh well    

Didn't see that coming. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Well,Im not passing any exam here,but OK.

А.Т.Степанец : Истребители ЯК периода Великой Отечественной войны, Машиностроение, 1992

 

To add to it (to be academic) he takes this info from ЦАМО, ф. 35. оп. 11287, д. 1452

 

Actually, if you make a statement the burden of proof is yours.

 

The thought that others should have to provide proof of your statement for ourselves and for you seems a little silly, no..?

[Brano]

Actually, if you make a statement the burden of proof is yours.

I dont need to proof anything.This is just ordinary forum discussion,not an exam. Take it,or leave it, I really dont care. I put a source in my response. I really dont understand whats your problem. 

 

The thought that others should have to provide proof of your statement for ourselves and for you seems a little silly, no..?

 

Thats your thought,not mine.

[Asgar]

the problem is your attitude. chill