Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW ?

March 13, 2016

There aren't any bullet points, either. Those are a compilation of whatever info I can find online by searching (videos, interviews, etc.), analysing his memoirs for cases of employment, and from personal experience using the tactics described. His written works are very good in that sense, Pokryshkin had an amazing gift for describing aerial combat and you can really get the picture vividly (something not all fighter pilot memoirs do).

March 14, 2016

@ Go_Pre: Thanks for the input in post #145. What you write there makes sense. However, I was apparently not clear myself: I was not saying I thought you were suggesting that a split-s was the way to go but since it has been brought up as an option for the situation in the thread I thought it should be included in the discussion. OTOH does it not seem like the safest option though? At least in the short run: To me it seems all the other options: Both the climb and the various turn options still result in the BDT getting a shot in, albeit a difficult and fleeting one but you are still left to the mercy of his shooting skills. However, it the BDT has any sort of significant speed advantage and you split-s that IMHO all but nullifies his chances of a shot unless he bunts violently or rolls with you and pulls some horrendous g and sacrifices all that e which all seems like an unlikely choice. OTOH, I guess what the BDT does if you split-s is simply pull up, reposition for another go which leaves you in the same position again but with an even greater disparity in e but you did survive the pass and he may lose you visually so maybe not such a bad option after all…… Again, just my armchair musings.

You have a valid point, and it helps to illustrate the fact that many options exist -- both as the offender and the defender. And, in this situation, as long as you survive, who's to say you're wrong?

With that being said, there are "good, better, and best" options that exist. I was once in a debrief for an OCA escort scenario (offensive counter air) where we were escorting a few F-16s to a target area. It was an upgrade ride for the leader of the formation, who was going through an upgrade that would allow him to become an instructor. I was just one of the wingmen that day, while the actual instructor for that ride was the other wingman (we were a 4-ship). We had mission success, but it wasn't pretty, and there were a lot of things we could have done better. After the flight lead was done debriefing us, the actual instructor took over. He said "you know, we always say that there are multiple ways to skin a cat. And that's true. But I feel like today, you used an old, rusty spoon to skin this cat." It was pretty hilarious, and good comedic relief at that point as well.

Anyway, back to the question. While a split S may very well be the safest option (and this is why it was something of a standard tactic for the Luftwaffe in the west, at least according to "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces"), what ability does it ever give you to go on the offensive, or at least neutralize the situation? You create a great deal of WEZ (weapons employment zone, in case I've never defined that) separation, which keeps you safe for the time being, but at the expense of the most altitude possible. The BDT could do nearly everything wrong and still have a significant energy advantage on you. Now, if your gameplan is to get out of dodge and run back to a known friendly location, or to drag the fight to a wingman who's just finished with a merge of his own and is ready to help out, or perhaps you don't want to fight over an enemy AAA site, it very well may be the best option. However, in a 1 v 1 vacuum where we aren't too concerned with those things, keeping what altitude you can, while ensuring you still have enough energy on your aircraft to defensively react (link), is generally the best option to go with. More specifically, maximizing angles for the BDT (which requires you see the BDT at further range) or maximizing closure for the BDT (meaning you see him at a much closer range, typically approaching a gun solution) gives you the best option of turning the tide -- either immediately or over time. I can present a few hypothetical situations if you'd like.

Just to prevent misunderstandings as I was the one mentioning a split S, that "arm chair" thinking of mine was that the defender was traveling at close to manouvre speed while the attacker at above his manouvre speed and with a closure speed of ~100+km/h. In a real combat situation it really depends on how quickly you can execute the manouvre. Executing a Split S in such a situation way above manouvre speed is probably not a too good idea ("arm chair" opinion).

Go_Pre's insight is really interesting indeed and I definetly see parallels between this and some of my "arm chair" combat tactics.

Also thx to Lucas for the translation and analysation work.

I see what you're saying, my mistake. The ambiguities of language will always lead to some misunderstandings; that's why it's good to keep asking the questions when you call "bull****" on something .

I think whatever the case the spirit of the thread is nice because people come here, share and discuss tactics for the benefit of the community instead of hiding them under a rock for personal advantage.

The caption to it says "Exit of climb (lit. "hill", how a steep climb is called in Russian) with an attack" I'll get to the notes and etc. on those diagrams over this weekend. I am learning a lot about these diagrams by translating them and analysing everything to the last detail (with the help of a couple of household objects and hands to get everything right), so it's been rewarding. The situation dictates how it's best to do it really, you want, of course, to go where the enemy won't so it doesn't hurt to bank a slight bit and do it.

Perhaps relevant story in practice:

Today I was flying in an ad hoc pair (on a LaGG-3, flying together with a Yak-1), and after a first kill and cruising around for a while we bounced a 109 flying at 1300m from 2000m. The Yak-1 went straight for him while I climbed straight up then followed them from about 800m. higher. While the Yak-1 was in a tail chase just outside guns range, the Bf-109 pulled up sharp and lost the pursuing Yak-1 since he took a split-second too long to react.

In this situation the pilot in question screwed up badly because I was sitting about 600+m behind the Yak-1 and 800m above, closing in at 600km/h. At the top of the climb the Bf-109 hung nearly motionless in the air. It was like strafing a ground target, I just pointed the nose at him and pew-pew, smoke everywhere then a parachute. He lost the Yak instantly, but flying without knowing who's hanging about resulted in certain death, as it does in most cases. If a manoeuvre rids you of one pursuer or puts you behind one enemy it remains useless if another 3 are going to kill you within 15 seconds.

EDIT: Changes to the third to last diagram, misinterpreted it.

I agree. And you can have all the knowledge in the world and still get wrecked. While I certainly do not have all the knowledge in the world regarding BFM, despite knowing a lot about it, I still get tracked in real life, and I've still found myself having to hit control-E online .

With that being said, and at the risk of re-inciting the previous argument (which I don't wish to do), can you see now why I said going uphill may not always be the best idea? Sure, the 109 pilot preserved his energy (unknown if it's a net gain, loss, or neutral, since we'd have to know just how hard he pulled and how much altitude was gained for the lost airspeed) relative to any sort of flat/downhill maneuver, but at what cost? Even if he got eyes on you as you closed for the gunshot, his maneuver potential was nil. Nose high, extremely slow, with little airflow over his control surfaces...this all leads to the inability to jink exactly when you need to. Even if he had attempted to roll and/or pull in any direction to avoid your fire, his maneuver would have hardly any effect, and you could easily account for it (by again solving for lead fire required and plane of motion) while taking a relatively low-pressure and easy gun shot -- as you described it, it was like "strafing a ground target."

Now, the impression I got from the rest of what you said is that you understand everything I said, and you're attempting to communicate that if there are multiple other bandits behind you after you defeat the attack of one of them, your chances are still slim. I agree, it's a bad place to be in. Alternatively, if he had the kinetic energy to "get out of the way" of your shot as you closed in, he could have at least avoided death from another bandit for the time being. And then, as you climbed back up and look to set up for another attack (you're in a LaGG, after all...I doubt you were about to commit to the fight and cut power to try to stay on his 6), the 109 could have again assessed his predicament and continue to fight what he saw -- either dodging attacks from yet more VVS aircraft closing in on him, or potentially attempting to separate away from the Yak and LaGG if conditions permitted.

March 14, 2016

I agree. And you can have all the knowledge in the world and still get wrecked.

True. I think that "all the knowledge" is just the basic knowledge required to survive in ideal conditions (total superiority in numbers, quality or technical). But alas, it is nothing more than this.

In fact i find it like scales in music, knowing them is a great tool to improvise, however only a poor musician would play them as such, because it is something dead and expected. You still have to practice everyday and play them again and again. But just that is not going to help you become a real musician. What is happening while you really play music is something of a total different nature. You cannot "use" them, in fact it is something that you need to forget while playing, at this point it starts to become interesting. There are so many traps and risks to play false notes, but in the same time there is such a freedom to move away from what is expected or set and reach something beautiful and genuinely "new". The best players do know but in a sense "forget" the knowledge, their playing cannot be reduced, it is something like a creation that is only accurate once in a unique environment. Just like we cannot describe completely what an ace does only by reducing his moves by giving names to his maneuvers. Doing this is just like saying "this cadenza" is in E. Don't take it too seriously. It just tells you nothing about what you are going to listen, prepare to be surprised.

I think that pilots, while in combat do not think in terms of maneuvers or tactics, during the intense concentration, they are masters, they feel the dynamics, to a point i believe they feel more than they think, because what they do is much more faster than just thinking: all the rules are constantly changing, the pressure rises, death is observing from above, the environment is closed: i this dominion of death where most of the charts and figures are rather against you, you really have to become something, unexpected, like life itself.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Yak9Micha

March 14, 2016

It's one of - to me at least - most enchanting parts of fighter tactics and BFM that no manoeuvre is perfect, invincible or appropriate for any situation, and the pilot really has to be able to account for all the surrounding elements in order to be successful.

In this case, for example, the guy had one bandit giving chase from his six and a second one hanging a little far back and above. From my assessment of the situation he had no idea at all that I even existed - once the Yak engaged he only had eyes for him. He entered a steep climb (90º) and rode it all the way until his speed was probably below the 250km/h mark, with a bandit that was positioned to limit his options. And of course, there are 3000 different ways to change the outcome here, like the one you mentioned. Another possible outcome (let's assume he knows there is a pair and not just the Yak, because 10 minutes before we had shot down the same guy some 25km from there) would be to have done the initial vertical move to throw the Yak off, but without doing it so steeply or stopping at that. Since there was a LaGG-3 coming in hot from above, he could have reversed his heading halfway through the manoeuvre and then assessed the options and enemy reactions from there.

A funny note for the curious:

The first time we shot down this guy, we were flying a similar set-up - Yak-1 lower and ahead, LaGG-3 above and behind. This time he tried to run home at a very low altitude as we attacked, and I was covering the action from 500m while the guy was mowing the lawn. The Yak-1 managed to get a couple of shots into him (only fuel tank damage, nothing major) and after a while he tried the auspicious, and engaged full "Erich Hartmann mode". He climbed a little - we followed, curiously - and then it happened. At around 700m, the hero of this story auspiciously tried the so-called "Hartmann roll", kicking the rudder and shoving the stick all the way up and to the side, inducing an inverted spin. As I saw it happen my reaction was to joyfully say "you've got to be f-ing kidding me". The Yak banked a little to avoid a collision and started climbing for the next attack. I saw the tumbling and stumbling Messer coming down and drew a little closer to see if I could get a shot but it wasn't going to happen without losing speed or risking collision so I started a climb too with a little bank to the left so I could follow the drama. I was getting ready to pounce and finish off the guy at any minute but it wasn't going to happen - he tumbled... and stumbled... and fumbled... and he never really pulled out.

He had some 500km/h to his name in a mostly undamaged aircraft, with his heading set home, and instead he tried a low altitude spin.

It's one of those things really, for each occasion where a tactic or manoeuvre is applicable there are another 25 where it isn't.

March 14, 2016

-snip- I can present a few hypothetical situations if you'd like.

Yep, would be nice to hear your input on this.

Also note that we seem to be on the same page regarding the split-s : I never suggested it was the best move from all perspectives: I merely pointed out that in the picture I was painting (the attacker having a healthy advantage in e) it seems the split-s places you in the least risk of getting shot but the downside is that it costs a lot of e. OTOH, going with one of the turn variations, you don't loose as much e but you are taking a greater risk in getting shot. So no clear winner as far as I can see.....

As a sidenote, AFAIK, the split-s was a good move in the early stages of the German "Reichsverteidigung" because in the early years the escorts would not pursue. This I believe changed later on and if the escorts pursued you in a P-51 or P-47 then maybe a split-s followed by a dive was no longer the "one size fits all solution" for the LW it used to be......

-snip-In fact i find it like scales in music, knowing them is a great tool to improvise, however only a poor musician would play them as such, because it is something dead and expected.

I enjoyed reading your music analogy and I agree with what I think you are trying to convey: We can’t expect to study a few pages of notes and then expect to sit down and write a great symphony. However, maybe we can study a symphony by a master and see how strings, woodwinds and brass are combined to get something harmonious that works? In addition, I think many of us find the discussion interesting because we are not on the symphony level but more trying to learn the scales.

Another analogy would be chess: This is also very complex and you can’t become a chess master simply by copying other people’s moves. However, you can learn a lot from studying previous games and there are actually some acknowledged answering moves depending on how your opponent opens the game. I think it is in this context we are (or at least I am) trying to decipher Pokryshkin's figures. We have the moves but not his explanations under which circumstances to use them.

As I see it we are fortunate to have in this thread both someone who seems very well read up on the composer and in addition a professional musician so why not sit back and enjoy music?

Edited March 14, 2016 by Holtzauge

March 14, 2016

Speaking of complex moves & countermoves: Totally OT but anyway don't miss the final Go showdown live streamed tomorrow: Lee Sedol versus Deep Mind

I have absolutely no idea how to play Go but the commentary by Michael Redmond makes it a fascinating watch IMHO. Deep Mind took the first three games in a row but Lee Sedol came back in the last one. Will be interesting to see who nabs the fifth and final round.

It seems Ray Kurzweil was right: The singularity is near.........

March 14, 2016

I'd love to see people who say planes are all competitive do a full expert match in german planes and then do a full match in a russian plane so we can see how competitves planes really are...

I'd watch that with great interest

"Competitive" doesn't mean equal terms in a head to head, co-altitude match. It means competitive in a somewhat realistic combat environment where you might have to pick your moments.

You have to fly each plane according to it's strengths - if you can't do that then stick to Tomb Raider.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Gambit21

March 14, 2016

"Competitive" doesn't mean equal terms in a head to head, co-altitude match. It means competitive in a someone realistic combat environment where you might have to pick your moments.

You have to fly each plane according to it's strengths - if you can't do that then stick to Tomb Raider.

+1

Anyone who's not deluded can see that the 109 is very superior in terms of raw potential. The Gustav is fast enough to dictate the engagement at any altitude and can pick and choose which opponents to engage at the pilot's leisure. If the tactical situation doesn't look favourable the Gustav pilot can simply climb away at the VVS fighter's top speed.

What that doesn't mean is that you can't shoot one down. Especially with icons off, you can set up a bounce on anyone whose attention is occupied elsewhere. 1v1 is very different than many vs many. All you have to do is watch Mr X's videos to see that even while totally defensive, snapshots do present themselves from time to time, and they can be decisive.

Edited March 14, 2016 by 13GIAP_opcode

March 14, 2016

It also goes without saying that 1x1 fighter on fighter dogfights are not the rule, and one does not always have a yes/no say on engaging. If a Bf-109 is protecting Stukas, should a flight of LaGG-3s come in from above and at a higher speed the 109 has no option but to engage and protect the bombers. In this situation the Bf-109, although faster horizontally and vertically, does not have the freedom to employ these advantages.

Similarly, if you are defending a ground asset and the enemy escort is in a better position than you are, you might need to try and get to the bombers while another part of your flight entertains the escort. This time the escort fighters can choose whom to engage and no superior max. speed or climb rate will save you.

Properly speaking, you can't really slam the throttle and run while the stuff you were supposed to protect gets obliterated.

March 15, 2016

if you can't do that then stick to Tomb Raider.

[Edited]

You talk about picking your moment, but then again germans planes have a much easier time "picking their moment". If you're flying a russian plane you have to be lucky to find an enemy in a weak position enought that you have a chance to kill him and not die.

And russian planes don't have their own strenght. Only thing that can save you is to outnumber the germans or be lucky to find a german that didn't see you and is in a position where you can kill him fast.

That's not a competitive playing field.

If you really wanna use a condescending tone as in your last post, then show me a track of gameplay where you "competitively" use a russian plane online, ok ?

Edited March 17, 2016 by Bearcat

March 15, 2016

Turban go watch Mr X's videos and you can watch him take a giant dump all over 190s and 109s in the yak or the lagg.

It might be more difficult but it can be done. The VVS aircraft do have some small advantages.

March 15, 2016

Obviously you can keep that stupid comment to yourself. And I'm being polite

You talk about picking your moment, but then again germans planes have a much easier time "picking their moment". If you're flying a russian plane you have to be lucky to find an enemy in a weak position enought that you have a chance to kill him and not die.

And russian planes don't have their own strenght. Only thing that can save you is to outnumber the germans or be lucky to find a german that didn't see you and is in a position where you can kill him fast.

That's not a competitive playing field.

If you really wanna use a condescending tone as in your last post, then show me a track of gameplay where you "competitively" use a russian plane online, ok ?

It'd go a long way if you could stop being condescending and show us a track of gameplay where you are anticompetitively slapping down VVS aircraft.

March 15, 2016

Turban go watch Mr X's videos and you can watch him take a giant dump all over 190s and 109s in the yak or the lagg.

It might be more difficult but it can be done. The VVS aircraft do have some small advantages.

Edited videos showing only kills mean nothing. Tha's pretty obvious.

Numbers don't lie. Look at Mk X's numbers. He kills 2,3, even 4 times less in russian planes. And he dies 10 times more. His results in russian planes are actually completely average.

That's the case with all uber LW """aces"""". Put them in russian planes and their numbers melt like ice cream under the sun. They are not better in any way that most russian pilots.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Turban

March 15, 2016

You talk about picking your moment, but then again germans planes have a much easier time "picking their moment". If you're flying a russian plane you have to be lucky to find an enemy in a weak position enought that you have a chance to kill him and not die.

And russian planes don't have their own strenght. Only thing that can save you is to outnumber the germans or be lucky to find a german that didn't see you and is in a position where you can kill him fast.

That's not a competitive playing field.

If you really wanna use a condescending tone as in your last post, then show me a track of gameplay where you "competitively" use a russian plane online, ok ?

Really, though? In this fighter vacuum, maximum performance is one thing, but there is nothing stopping you from creating a favourable situation. If the enemy is flying at 3000m usually, come in at 4000m.

And the Soviet (not Russian, mind the difference) fighters do have their own strengths.

I-16: Best roll and turn; excellent acceleration and climb; possibility for strong armament.
MiG-3: Excellent high-altitude performance; good roll; possibility for strong armament.
P-40: Excellent dive characteristics and roll; damage-resistant; strong armament.
LaGG-3: Excellent roll and instantaneous turn; damage-resistant; good armament with room for ~~death rays~~ 23 and 37mm cannons
Yak-1: Good climb rate; good turn performance; good maximum speed; armament matches Bf-109F-4 and G-2; an excellent fighter fit for most situations and speed ranges
La-5: Fastest aircraft in game at sea level; excellent roll, instantaneous turn and climb rate; strong armament; damage-resistant.

So you have the fastest aircraft ASL, the best manoeuvrability, extremely competitive roll rates, the best damage-resistance in fighters (I regularly take 37mm flak hits or multiple 20mm hits from fighters and truck home just fine while tangling with the enemy on the way back) and decent cannon armament in most of them.

How are you getting such poor performance? The majority of my fighter-on-fighter engagements recently ended in a) the enemy being shot down, b) the enemy running away at maximum speed after things got hairy for them, factually giving up and c) successfully returning to base with a damaged aircraft, fighting successful disengagement battles with intact enemies.

If you find the enemy is overwhelming you that easily, just fly a little higher than you are used to and that's that.

March 15, 2016

It'd go a long way if you could stop being condescending and show us a track of gameplay where you are anticompetitively slapping down VVS aircraft.

I'm not being condescending since I am answering to someone who said "stick to tomb raider duh" ...

Tracks where germans planes EASILY crushing russian planes are all over the internet. And numbers don't lie. I'm not sure I need to bother with making that kind of track.

I would be interested in doing tracks with side to side comparison though. That'd be very interesting.

Really, though? In this fighter vacuum, maximum performance is one thing, but there is nothing stopping you from creating a favourable situation. If the enemy is flying at 3000m usually, come in at 4000m.

And the Soviet (not Russian, mind the difference) fighters do have their own strengths.

I-16: Best roll and turn; excellent acceleration and climb; possibility for strong armament.

MiG-3: Excellent high-altitude performance; good roll; possibility for strong armament.

P-40: Excellent dive characteristics and roll; damage-resistant; strong armament.

LaGG-3: Excellent roll and instantaneous turn; damage-resistant; good armament with room for ~~death rays~~ 23 and 37mm cannons

Yak-1: Good climb rate; good turn performance; good maximum speed; armament matches Bf-109F-4 and G-2; an excellent fighter fit for most situations and speed ranges

La-5: Fastest aircraft in game at sea level; excellent roll, instantaneous turn and climb rate; strong armament; damage-resistant.

So you have the fastest aircraft ASL, the best manoeuvrability, extremely competitive roll rates, the best damage-resistance in fighters (I regularly take 37mm flak hits or multiple 20mm hits from fighters and truck home just fine while tangling with the enemy on the way back) and decent cannon armament in most of them.

How are you getting such poor performance? The majority of my fighter-on-fighter engagements recently ended in a) the enemy being shot down, b) the enemy running away at maximum speed after things got hairy for them, factually giving up and c) successfully returning to base with a damaged aircraft, fighting successful disengagement battles with intact enemies.

If you find the enemy is overwhelming you that easily, just fly a little higher than you are used to and that's that.

Saying an aircraft is "good" at something doesn't make it a strenght. Germans planes do better in pretty much every aspect. The yak for example. It's good maybe but the it's outclassed regardless.

And the Lagg has instantaneous turn? Are you serious??

Edited March 15, 2016 by Turban

March 15, 2016

You are still ignoring that the La-5 is faster than all aircraft at lower altitudes, or that the I-16 out-rolls and out-turns everyone else.

And the LaGG-3 does have strong instantaneous turn ability, as opposed to sustained turn. By turn I mean actually turning and handling the aircraft, rather than throwing the stick to the stomach and wondering why did you snap stall.

You must at least ponder, why are other people getting good results flying Soviet fighters against the same people you fly with if they are so inferior?

March 15, 2016

You are still ignoring that the La-5 is faster than all aircraft at lower altitudes, or that the I-16 out-rolls and out-turns everyone else.

And the LaGG-3 does have strong instantaneous turn ability, as opposed to sustained turn. By turn I mean actually turning and handling the aircraft, rather than throwing the stick to the stomach and wondering why did you snap stall.

First : the I16. Probably rolls and turns great. You just need to have someone stupid enought to engage a turning fight at very low speed from the start. Why do you think the I16 got phased out by Russia during WWII ??? Why ???? Because it's wasn't competitive at all !!!

Second. I don't have the La5. So... anyway. It's 20 km/h faster at sea level. Then it becomes slower. So it's hardly anything to go crazy about. How long does it even takes to get to that speed? How does the rest factors in ? Like maneuverability, crazy energy retention of the F4 ?

You know its dive speed is 100 km/h less than a F4 ??

The La5 is an improvement over the Lagg 3, sure, but it's not a revolution.

Then if you really think the Lagg 3 turns great... well what can I say. Wishfull thinking.

Again, like I said in the beginning of this thread. I'm not hating on IL2 and russian planes. But people calling themselves experts tryng to argue against all facts that russian planes are competitives or as good, or better (lmao) than german planes is really something that makes me cringe.

Anyway. Let's me remind you that this thread was about having a new yak for russians to get the game a bit more balanced, and to that I say, yes, yes PLEASE.

You must at least ponder, why are other people getting good results flying Soviet fighters against the same people you fly with if they are so inferior?

I really don't think you're in a position to use this condescending tone with me.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Turban

March 15, 2016

This thread was intendet as a flame thread from the very start. Just looking at the title chosen tells everything. If you were aiming for a real suggestion you should have posted this in the dev section / suggestion section. That was not the primary intent though but just making another post about how unfairly superiour the Luftwaffe is (like this wasn't the 100th thread suggesting so).

If balance is your thing you might check War Thunder and enjoy fighting 1942 Messerschmitts with late 1944 La-5FN and Yak-3s. This game strives for historical authenticity and will (hopefully) not face planes form different time periods against each other.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

March 15, 2016

This thread was intendet as a flame thread from the very start. Just looking at the title chosen tells everything. If you were aiming for a real suggestion you should have posted this in the dev section / suggestion section. That was not the primary intent though but just making another post about how unfairly superiour the Luftwaffe is (like this wasn't the 100th thread suggesting so).

If balance is a thing you might check War Thunder and enjoy fighting 1942 Messerschmitts with late 1944 La-5FN and Yak-3s. This game strives for historical authenticity and will (hopefully) not face planes form different time periods against each other.

Oh look, another condescending post ........ You know that asking for a Yak 9 is not like... crazy ???? You know that the Yak 9 belongs to Stalingrad more than the FW 190 A3 ???

I don't see you complain about that ??? But I guess that's just another hint that you are biaised.

Anyway, I didn't even start the thread so.... you might wanna keep your comment about where it should have been posted ok ?

And it wasn't supposed to be a flame war, but a plea to get a newer yak into the game.

People who turned it into a flame war were LW "aces" who don't want to see any competitive aircraft in the sky annd/or self proclaimed tactical forum experts who say "all is great you just don't know as much as I do".

March 15, 2016

no, the only one flaming here is you. I hope this get's locked real quick, because it's useless witch hunt, nothing more

March 15, 2016

no, the only one flaming here is you. I hope this get's locked real quick, because it's useless witch hunt, nothing more

Of course, asking to close a thread asking for a Yak 9... how unsurprising.

And I'm not flaming. I do answer people who tell me to play Tomb Raider or War Thunder. That's the right thing to do. Funny you don't pick that up. The bias is strong with some people here.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Turban

March 15, 2016

I'll translate some useful things today to see if this mess can be salvaged.

If they lock this, I suggest we open a BFM & Tactics thread so that Go_Pre, 5tuka, Holtzauge and others who were partaking in that nice BFM chat can carry on.

March 15, 2016

here is more butthurt in LW "aces" who know their "aces" numbers are due to the planes more than anything

i have to admit, shooting down enemies without a plane would be quite the interesting challenge! Someone should add a gamemode where germans get Panzers only!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6GhtCC7_Co

Take it easy gents, it's a game and should be fun.

March 15, 2016

The VVS had a 25 kill ace on I-16s early on in the war. Sorry but I forget the man's name.

I hope, that sometime in future I can get the P40 and I-16, only fly those two types, and try to change some minds.

Za Rodinu!

March 15, 2016

i have to admit, shooting down enemies without a plane would be quite the interesting challenge! Someone should add a gamemode where germans get Panzers only!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6GhtCC7_Co

Take it easy gents, it's a game and should be fun.

That's what I call playing with words...

Yes it's about fun, and bringing a better Yak would be a good step in making the game fun for everyone especially when it comes to multiplayer.

March 15, 2016

Whatever dude, keep going with this dead horse...

March 15, 2016

You're probably thinking Safonov - I-16s, Hurricanes and P-40 only. The MiG-3 was a big ace-maker in 1941 as well, for the record.

March 15, 2016

The VVS had a 25 kill ace on I-16s early on in the war. Sorry but I forget the man's name.

I hope, that sometime in future I can get the P40 and I-16, only fly those two types, and try to change some minds.

Za Rodinu!

Lend Lease set is the only chance to make VVS aicraft actually interesting instead adding more and more delta wood krap.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Mac_Messer

March 15, 2016

German fighters are better all around, russian planes have virtually no chance which is what we see online. Luck is the russian's best (not only) weapon

In all non-missle air combat, the faster and better climbing planes will have an advantage, that is true.. as they can easier decide when to engage and when not to. And in a halfway historical flightsim, there will be always one side that has a better plane in speed and climb... even if you go "please devs, gib XYZ stronk plane to other side" it doesn´t change anything to that dynamics, because in the end all can play all sides, as it s a game.

The tactical positioning and especially teamwork and communication is THE weapon against that edge and understanding that is paramount, regardless of which "side" you think you´re on. And off course, unterstanding your planes "other" qualities in the non-speed or climb related categories. Lucas has pointed those out nicely. And to add to that, energy retention is also a thing to understand.. in BoS, the yak has a rather extreme one built in, while the p40 has the negative extreme built in (and I´m not getting tired of saying the P40 should be buffed up in that department for both gameplay and realisms sake), but that alone is not enough, you need to fly accordingly.

Saying "the other side is better in everything" is not going to make you any better. Flying all sides and all planes is.

I suggest you give the german side a try and see how good you do in those "superior planes" and probably soon see that BoS is not as singlesided as you think it is.

and just for the fun of it, since just yesterday I had a shot at your Il2 (I was in one of the FW190s bouncing you) and you where wildly complainig; Off course the Il2 is not competative as a fighter with the FW190, but it is absolutly not a plane that is "completly outclassed" cannon fodder, especially not in BoS and the way it is modeled with extreme controlability, damage resistance, low speed handling and energy retention. You know, off course the FW190 can eat ground attackers for breakfast, but sometimes that breakfast can bite back..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5Ys7N1iT5c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMlUVifr30c

March 15, 2016

In all non-missle air combat, the faster and better climbing planes will have an advantage, that is true.. as they can easier decide when to engage and when not to. And in a halfway historical flightsim, there will be always one side that has a better plane in speed and climb... even if you go "please devs, gib XYZ stronk plane to other side" it doesn´t change anything to that dynamics, because in the end all can play all sides, as it s a game.

The tactical positioning and especially teamwork and communication is THE weapon against that edge and understanding that is paramount, regardless of which "side" you think you´re on. And off course, unterstanding your planes "other" qualities in the non-speed or climb related categories. Lucas has pointed those out nicely. And to add to that, energy retention is also a thing to understand.. in BoS, the yak has a rather extreme one built in, while the p40 has the negative extreme built in (and I´m not getting tired of saying the P40 should be buffed up in that department for both gameplay and realisms sake), but that alone is not enough, you need to fly accordingly.

Saying "the other side is better in everything" is not going to make you any better. Flying all sides and all planes is.

I suggest you give the german side a try and see how good you do in those "superior planes" and probably soon see that BoS is not as singlesided as you think it is.

and just for the fun of it, since just yesterday I had a shot at your Il2 (I was in one of the FW190s bouncing you) and you where wildly complainig; Off course the Il2 is not competative as a fighter with the FW190, but it is absolutly not a plane that is "completly outclassed" cannon fodder, especially not in BoS and the way it is modeled with extreme controlability, damage resistance, low speed handling and energy retention. You know, off course the FW190 can eat ground attackers for breakfast, but sometimes that breakfast can bite back..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5Ys7N1iT5c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMlUVifr30c

I'll answer this, not beating a dead horse, just answering, before anyone tries to poke me on this.

I was "complaining", but certainly not about the IL2 as you try to imply. You must have forgotten I guess. I was "complaining" about the team balance. What was it. 1 vs 2.5 ? I guess that's what people call "fun" and expect others to deal with it.

And I wasn't in an Il2 anyway, so you must have been confusing me with someone else. Why try to make me sound like a prick "complaining about the IL2 Vs FW" with a uncorrect statement such as yours? That's very dishonest to say the least.

BOS isn't one sided? Well, number tell a different story. The K/D ratio superiority of german planes is indisputable. And it's not about skill. Someone brought up Mr X. His stats when playing russian are average.

Again, I'd like to remind every one that this thread was about bringing a new Yak to the theater (a yak that belongs there more then the FW 190 A), which would be a relief for russian pilots.

I see zero good argument against it,why some people felt the need to get on their high horse against it, I don't know, I guess some people just don't wan't to see things change for the better.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Turban

March 15, 2016

I was "complaining" about the team balance. What was it. 1 vs 2.5 ?

20 russians more or less on the server, we would have shot you down regardless..

Someone brought up Mr X. His stats when playing russian are average.

Player skill does not translate, obviously. someone that is good at one playstyle cannot translate it to any plane just like that. Every good pilot flies his plane to his strengths, russians and germans alike. if it happens that germans get the upper hand, they win. If the russians bounce a german, they win. Simple as that.

March 15, 2016

Arguments against it: there is virtually no space within the 4+1 x 4+1 framework to bring an early-series Yak-9; the performance difference between the early Yak-9 and the current late-series Yak-1 is not a game changer nor a 'relief'; the Yak-9 was only there in field testing capacity, much like the La-5FN in Kursk.

The Fw-190 was not in Stalingrad but it did appear over Velikiye Luki in proper operational numbers, and it brings more variety to the playing field than the Yak-9 would factually speaking. Also, the Axis forces over Stalingrad did not operate any other fighters in proper numbers except for the Bf-109F-4 and Bf-109G-2. There were IAR.80s, IAR.81s, C.200 and C.202 in small numbers, but that was it. Also, as Andrey (dev) pointed out back in 2014, people just love the Fw-190 so they found a way to put it there due to popular demand.

March 15, 2016

Edited videos showing only kills mean nothing. Tha's pretty obvious.

Numbers don't lie. Look at Mk X's numbers. He kills 2,3, even 4 times less in russian planes. And he dies 10 times more. His results in russian planes are actually completely average.

That's the case with all uber LW """aces"""". Put them in russian planes and their numbers melt like ice cream under the sun. They are not better in any way that most russian pilots.

The videos aren't really edited. You can find 45-minute-long videos of single sorties where scores 2-3 kills in a Yak-1.

I've never disputed from the outset that the Axis aircraft are better. I only dispute that your only chance is to catch one unprepared. I have personally beaten 109s 1v1, from a disadvantage. Yes, it's really hard, and I get shot down a lot more in the VVS aircraft than the Luftwaffe aircraft, but it can still be done.

March 15, 2016

Come on Gents, let's not get this otherwise good thread locked, OK?

No reason this cannot be discussed in a civil manner, and both sides have their own bias, so let's just try to keep calm and carry on with the original subject matter.

Would the Yak 9 be a welcome plane for the VVS? Yes, of course. Would it be a world beater uber ride? No. It would (hopefully) be what it was. A solid performer in it's envelope, that would give the VVS in the sim another, and better, tool in it's toolbox.

March 15, 2016

I'll answer this, not beating a dead horse, just answering, before anyone tries to poke me on this.

I was "complaining", but certainly not about the IL2 as you try to imply. You must have forgotten I guess. I was "complaining" about the team balance. What was it. 1 vs 2.5 ? I guess that's what people call "fun" and expect others to deal with it.

And I wasn't in an Il2 anyway, so you must have been confusing me with someone else. Why try to make me sound like a prick "complaining about the IL2 Vs FW" with a uncorrect statement such as yours? That's very dishonest to say the least.

BOS isn't one sided? Well, number tell a different story. The K/D ratio superiority of german planes is indisputable. And it's not about skill. Someone brought up Mr X. His stats when playing russian are average.

Again, I'd like to remind every one that this thread was about bringing a new Yak to the theater (a yak that belongs there more then the FW 190 A), which would be a relief for russian pilots.

I see zero good argument against it,why some people felt the need to get on their high horse against it, I don't know, I guess some people just don't wan't to see things change for the better.

I was just trying to be helpful.

Look, I´m sorry if I misstook you.. and while I´m all in favour of team balancing and usually fly the side with less people, sometimes there are reasons why I don´t. Like where my friends fly or practicing a specific plane... and there where some really salty chat comments yesterday and some from you, that seemed a bit out of place apart from beeing hilariously false like those trying to insult us in the FWs for "lack of skill in engine management" which apparently would keep us from flying russian. Which I find funny, not because any considerations of my own skill, but rather because of the fact that the engine management sometimes seem odd and simplistic on some russian planes compared to the very tight engine limits on other planes (talk about engines running with 0% mixture, boost through enriching mixture at altitude and all that which seem odd to my little amateur flying knowledge).. but hey, in any case, salty coments and insults don´t change a thing or help.

I wanted to fly FW yesterday on DeD but we also flew I-16s right before that on Wings and I got totally destroyed by a 190 and still had fun.. and while I understand why it is there, the 900sec side change penalty on that server is also not helpful for teambalance and does not encurage me to change side. And if I read unfriendly chat I´m going to be likely to team up with that person, regardless of side. I want to have fun, and someone beeing loud and insulting is not sounding like it is really fun to fly with him or her.

back to the Yak 9: I honestly wonder if the area it really was an improvement in, is actually that detailed modelled in game. Engineeringwise, i think the main important thing on that model was the move away from fabric covered surfaces. While easy to repair, they get have vibrations and movement and do tend to get a lot more draggy at speed.. but I really don´t think the shape changing material properties and their effect on drag is that detailedly modeled in BoS. Don´t get me wrong, that is not a critique, there is only so much you can do in a flightsim

Edited March 15, 2016 by Dr_Zeebra

March 15, 2016

we also flew I-16s

The russian flares are OP as hell and need a fix ASAP!

March 15, 2016

And I wasn't in an Il2 anyway, so you must have been confusing me with someone else

Do you want a screenshot of the chat aswell?

March 15, 2016

Good one Vade

March 15, 2016

Do you want a screenshot of the chat aswell?

Ok, after reviewing it, yes, I did take an Il2 once in over 2 hours. It was supposed to be a quick run to chase a nearby tank. Ok. I did take an il2 once in 15 flights. Still. Nothing actually happened like Zeebra mentionned. I didn't complain about IL2 vs FW, didn't mention engine management or whatever. I didn't even know he was around we didn't have an encounter with a debate on IL2 vs FW190. Like I said we had an exchange about team balance and that's it.

Worse case scenario after your high risk pass on my IL2 I praised your skill and courage (that not Zeebra on the screen btw) , but there was no debate.

March 15, 2016

Player skill does not translate, obviously. someone that is good at one playstyle cannot translate it to any plane just like that. Every good pilot flies his plane to his strengths, russians and germans alike. if it happens that germans get the upper hand, they win. If the russians bounce a german, they win. Simple as that.

Numbers don't lie. You are trying to look away from them, interpret them in a way that would fit your view. Do it if that makes you feel better.

Germans planes are better overall, there's just no way around it, again, numbers don't lie. Plus it's pretty obvious, but some people are just hell bent on denying it...

Edited March 15, 2016 by Turban

Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW ?

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