Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW ?

[BlitzPig_EL]

1) reduce the durability of fuselage and inner wing hit boxes of the Pe2 slightly. It´s a tad bit too tankish currently

 

3) tone down energy retentention and low speed handling of the Il2:41 it is doing too well in keepting energy in turnfights and re-accelerating. Stuka is similar, but it affects gameplay less

4) give the yak more high speed stiffness and increased drag at high speeds, after all replacing the wobbly fabric covering with bakelite solid surface was one of the big deal issues that made the Yak9 so much better.

 

6) make the 110 wings a tiny bit more durable.

 

Based on what empirical evidence?

 

You can't make claims and ask for changes like these without proper documentation.  Also goes for numbers 2 and 5 that I somehow managed to delete by mistake...

 

The fact that you "feel" these things to be correct does not make them so.

Edited July 17, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[A_radek]

I wish we had enough horsepower in our PC's to (at a reasonably detailed level) allow a simulation of air interacting with a high resolution and dynamic 3D shape, in realtime. Even then people would have a fit about engine performance, mass, placement of mass, drag coefficient of German paint and so on. But I suspect such a simulation would give some very interesting, unexpected and hard to dispute results.

 

Till then all we have are these simplified fm's that will always contain some weird stuff. Bet whomever is responsible has already seen that p-40 video, received some healthy pun from his/hers colleagues and intends to fix the harrier p-40 issue together with hundreds of other Fm improvements, when time permits.

 

My modest fm wish list: Yaw to roll coupling! Initial coupling is fine, but after first rudder kick they keep rolling quite happily. It's as if the planes had a dihedral angle of 45* to roll that well with rudder only. I base my claim on my own unscientific experience flying mostly gliders, a piper pa28, a piper cub and a small electric spitfire Rc model that I whacked after many hours of painting it best I could. It still makes me sad thinking about it.

 

All in all I truly enjoy flying these unforgiving heavy hot rods in this sim, and 99% of the time find things very believable. Bravo devs!

[BraveSirRobin]

The only people I'm labelling "fanboys" are the ones that can't read criticism of a video game without getting emotional.

I laughed when I saw that DCS had the same "flaw" as BoS. Was that too emotional?

[GrendelsDad]

I guess many like and don't mind that Warthundery flight feeling like in the empty P-40.

 

I guess when you keep on pumping out new planes. and material you miss the really big bugs like that

being a small team and all.

I think it was missed or put on low priority because it in no way effects the game because no one other than Dr. Zebra making a video is playing like this....I hope and pray I see a P40 flying like this one day. Looks like an easy kill to me.

[Lusekofte]

The P 40 got its flaws if you seek them out and use it, in FPS games this is known as glitches and are illegal to take advantage of. I am still amazed that people still believe it is possible to simulate real world accurate.

One of the reasons I seldom fly online is the high presence of people taking advantage of the fact that the servers do not punish people flying this way. What the P 40 can do with little to none fuel and no ammo is to me of no interest.

Have any of you tried out the WW2 planes in DCS? It is the same thing in most cases if you push the boundaries. This got nothing to do with realism and coding. It got something to do with making something possible to sell for a price people are able to afford. 

You will find stuff like this in high end simulation software, but in those cases students are not allowed to test them out, they fly it like a real plane is meant to fly.

It is typical that "glitches" like this get a huge amount of attention. Not once do we look at ourselves and how the community can make a effort to perform a fair and historical conduct. The blame is always put on the developers.

Edited July 18, 2016 by 216th_LuseKofte

[wtornado]

The blame is always put on the developers.

 

They are the ones I and handing my money to. 

 

 

No matter TF 5.0 is out by the end of the year and I know it will be good because they beta-test their stuff right to the end and

for a long time bug squashing the hell out of the game until it is very good.

 

The video with one of my favorite IL-2  1946 planes the Beaufighter and teaser pictures that are obviously North Africa

should please pilots and give them what they want.

Edited July 18, 2016 by WTornado

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

That "boundaries" can become critical if exploits like the Yak's flaps (pre patch) become so obvious and commonly used that it does change the gameplay expirience to sth totally unrealistc. Until you want to live with prop hanging IL-2s shooting fighters from a km below or Yaks flying slower than Stukas and yet are able to pull loops and stuff, this is more or less and issue worth adressing.

 

If everybody flew the way it was meant to be, means by manual, aircraft would not need stall characteristics, prop modeling ect. A simple Speed, lift and HP value would be all you need alog with some basic geometry.

[Lusekofte]

They are the ones I and handing my money to. 

 

 

No matter TF 5.0 is out by the end of the year and I know it will be good because they beta-test their stuff right to the end and

for a long time bug squashing the hell out of the game until it is very good.

 

The video with one of my favorite IL-2  1946 planes the Beaufighter and teaser pictures that are obviously North Africa

should please pilots and give them what they want.

 

I agree on the part of TF 5, it looks very interesting   But that is not my point.

 

That "boundaries" can become critical if exploits like the Yak's flaps (pre patch) become so obvious and commonly used that it does change the gameplay expirience to sth totally unrealistc. Until you want to live with prop hanging IL-2s shooting fighters from a km below or Yaks flying slower than Stukas and yet are able to pull loops and stuff, this is more or less and issue worth adressing.

 

If everybody flew the way it was meant to be, means by manual, aircraft would not need stall characteristics, prop modeling ect. A simple Speed, lift and HP value would be all you need alog with some basic geometry.

I agree on the Yak point it did affect gameplay, but P 40 performance with 10 minute of flytime due to little fuel and no ammo do not

[wtornado]

 

 

agree on the part of TF 5, it looks very interesting   But that is not my point.

 

I get your point too many bugs and they cannot satisfy every one and they do not want to overcharge but they are becuase they are not selling 2 million copies

of it to make good money.

 

In a way they are screwed.We will fly TF 5.0 until this game and all of its releases go gold and almost everything is fixed

 

 

 

That "boundaries" can become critical if exploits like the Yak's flaps (pre patch) become so obvious and commonly used that it does change the gameplay expirience to sth totally unrealistc. Until you want to live with prop hanging IL-2s shooting fighters from a km below or Yaks flying slower than Stukas and yet are able to pull loops and stuff, this is more or less and issue worth adressing.

 

 

Maybe they are making War Packs like in World of Tanks ...10$ a warpack for the Yak and IL-2.  

 

 

There are living breathing people right now that are writing books and teaching new pilots how to fly these 109's and Spitfires etc etc.

They analyse every aspect of the plane without  bias towards their own and enemy planes.They tell it like it is.

 

With technology today their assessments will be much less primitive than it was back then.

 

Forget about what Hans di Bla bla or Johnny Stiffneck DFC ,DSO  said 70 years ago.''We out turned this or I did that''

[Dakpilot]

 

 

 

Is French or Joual your first language?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[A_radek]

I get your point too many bugs and they cannot satisfy every one and they do not want to overcharge but they are becuase they are not selling 2 million copies

of it to make good money.

 

In a way they are screwed.We will fly TF 5.0 until this game and all of its releases go gold and almost everything is fixed

Price of this game is high for pc-game. But let's put things into perspective. Last week my mother-in-law visited. Felt I wanted to share that info. The mandatory restaurant dinner she expects every time she visits cost me more than this game did. And the fish tasted tapwater, great beer though.

 

So I'm not so sure they are screwed. But I see your point, a younger audience or those with a limited hobby budget will probably stay with TF 5 only.

[wtornado]

Price of this game is high for pc-game. But let's put things into perspective. Last week my mother-in-law visited. Felt I wanted to share that info. The mandatory restaurant dinner she expects every time she visits cost me more than this game did. And the fish tasted tapwater, great beer though.

 

So I'm not so sure they are screwed. But I see your point, a younger audience or those with a limited hobby budget will probably stay with TF 5 only.

Put it this way  it is free and there bug smash the hell out of the release, plus my joysticks do not lose their configuration i am all in.

[wtornado]

Is French or Joual your first language?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

No why do you ask?

 

Actually I am of Irish,Scottish,English,French and German descent.

 

Good blood line is it not?

 

The Irish,Scottish and German blood probably explains the blonde hair,blue eyes and white white skin

that never tans and only burns.

 

I speak a lot of French because no one speaks english here.

Edited July 18, 2016 by WTornado

[GrendelsDad]

If you guys think the price of this game is high...try playing totalwar warhammer and get dlc'd to death. The price is fair(BOS/BOM) and game bugs are crushed on a monthly basis. TF does a great job crushing bugs every 2 years. No comparison.

Edited July 18, 2016 by 6./ZG1_GrendelsDad

[Dakpilot]

No why do you ask?

 

 

Just curious, seeing as Canada is shown as your location

 

maybe it is your Scottish blood that finds BoS so overpriced 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Brano]

4) give the yak more high speed stiffness and increased drag at high speeds, after all replacing the wobbly fabric covering with bakelite solid surface was one of the big deal issues that made the Yak9 so much better.

 

First series of Yak-9 had wings still with main wooden spars and some duraluminium ribs + covered in plywood (mostly pine) and birchwood veneer at wings leading edge. Fabric was glued on top of the veneer.

Later series (1944) had main spars and part of ribs from duraluminium,but still same cover as above.

For the fuselage,its rear part was same as with Yak-1 = top gargot from plywood,side and bottom fabric.

Ailerons and rudder covered by fabric for both Yak-1 and 9.

 

EDIT:

This is war film documentary about Saratov factory.Its production of Yak-3,but manufacturing process for fuselage and wings was the same as for Yak-9. First 4min are about covering of upper gargot with plywood and sewing of fabric on the side. From 10:35 you have the section of film about wing manufacture. It is of same mixed construction as Yak-9. You can see metal main spars in detail and how birchwood veneer is applied at leading edge and how the rest of the wing is covered by pine plywood.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmKo47oG7DI

 

There was no bakelite used in ''solid surfaces''.

 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Brano

[-TBC-AeroAce]

AND this whole thread is a very good example of why you need an engineering degree and many years of experience to even get close to an understanding of how these aircraft flew! F me not even 95% of current day aerodynamicst + physicist could tell you how this stuff would have handled (this is carefully selected word) but half of you guys think you know better.

 

The devs have done what they can, nothing is extremely wrong and if it is they fix it 

Edited July 18, 2016 by AeroACE

[A_radek]

AND this whole thread is a very good example of why you need an engineering degree and many years of experience to even get close to an understanding of how these aircraft flew! F me not even 95% of current day aerodynamicst + physicist could tell you how this stuff would have handled (this is carefully selected word) but half of you guys think you know better.

 

The devs have done what they can, nothing is extremely wrong and if it is they fix it 

ok. But we were having a discussion here. Sharing opinions, emotions, origins and so on with the rest of the internet. All very healthy stuff, your welcome to join us. 

[wtornado]

Just curious, seeing as Canada is shown as your location

 

maybe it is your Scottish blood that finds BoS so overpriced 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Na we are just taxed at 49.5% annual income there is not much left .

 

Canada is trying to save the 3rd world and we tax payers are footing the bill.

American wages with Canadian taxes does not go well.

Edited July 18, 2016 by WTornado

[SYN_Haashashin]

I assure you that fending off [Edited]  on an Internet site does not cause me to hyperventilate.

 

I must have upset you if you're resorting to appeals to emotion like that. Please accept my apologies.

 

opcode, Please do not label any member. At least with not those terms. It can be offensive to some.

 

I see a lot of back and forth with not so "nice" remarks from certains members, please keep it civil.

 

Also, it seems this is turning into a FM discussion of some short?? Please keep it on topic or it will seems that after 17 pages there just nothing more to add here.

 

Ohhh and economics and geopolitics do not belong to this forum.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

ok. But we were having a discussion here. Sharing opinions, emotions, origins and so on with the rest of the internet. All very healthy stuff, your welcome to join us. 

 

joined this convo too many times. It always comes down to people expectations vs some other people that try to make sence of it but never really get there

Edited July 18, 2016 by AeroACE

[wtornado]

Stalingrad got the FW-190 can the next release get a Spitfire MK XIV?

Edited July 18, 2016 by WTornado

[Livai]

Can someone rename this topic to "Bf-109 F-4 or Bf-109 G-2 or even... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the VVS?" Sounds more accurate to me!
The Stats just show how it is and you still scratching your head, wondering if a Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW.  I see we are talking here about the eternal Bf-109, do we by the way.......

[JG13_opcode]

G-2 is easily the best plane currently, not sure why a person would think Axis have it rough.

 

Maybe from a ground-pound perspective?

Edited July 18, 2016 by 13GIAP_opcode

[Dakpilot]

Stalingrad got the FW-190 can the next release get a Spitfire MK XIV?

 

Yes Battle of Stalingrad game got the FW-190A3, in service at the time of Stalingrad, and historically used at Veliki Luki map included in the game...

 

If the next release is of the time frame and theater for Spit Mk XIV why not

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[[CPT]milopugdog]

G-2 is easily the best plane currently, not sure why a person would think Axis have it rough.

 

Maybe from a ground-pound perspective?

From a bombing perspective, no. From a tank busting perspective? Yes. The German bombers suffer because too many people want epic lone wolf dog fight sorties like in over romanticized war movies, and don't want to escort the flying targets.

[JG13_opcode]

From a bombing perspective, no. From a tank busting perspective? Yes. The German bombers suffer because too many people want epic lone wolf dog fight sorties like in over romanticized war movies, and don't want to escort the flying targets.

 

Pretty comical; I remember back on warclouds it was always the other way around.  Blue always escorted our bombers and Red rarely did.  But that's DF servers for you.  

 

If and when a good online war starts people will fly differently.

[Monostripezebra]

 

First series of Yak-9 had wings still with main wooden spars and some duraluminium ribs + covered in plywood (mostly pine) and birchwood veneer at wings leading edge. Fabric was glued on top of the veneer.

Later series (1944) had main spars and part of ribs from duraluminium,but still same cover as above.

For the fuselage,its rear part was same as with Yak-1 = top gargot from plywood,side and bottom fabric.

Ailerons and rudder covered by fabric for both Yak-1 and 9.

 

EDIT:

This is war film documentary about Saratov factory.Its production of Yak-3,but manufacturing process for fuselage and wings was the same as for Yak-9. First 4min are about covering of upper gargot with plywood and sewing of fabric on the side. From 10:35 you have the section of film about wing manufacture. It is of same mixed construction as Yak-9. You can see metal main spars in detail and how birchwood veneer is applied at leading edge and how the rest of the wing is covered by pine plywood.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmKo47oG7DI

 

There was no bakelite used in ''solid surfaces''.

I´m not an expert on yak production, but the bakelite is said in this book: Leonard, Herbert. Encyclopaedia of Soviet Fighters 1939–1951. Paris: Histoire & Collections, 2005

 

you´re vid shows well how the later yak fuselage is entirely covered with solid covers.. which does make quite a difference at high speed. Fabric covered fuselages like our Yak-1 produce significantly more drag. Even at lower speeds like 180km/h you can see modern fabric fuselages showing the efects of vibrating surfaces, that much I´ve seen myself ;=)

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Pretty comical; I remember back on warclouds it was always the other way around.  Blue always escorted our bombers and Red rarely did.  But that's DF servers for you.  

 

If and when a good online war starts people will fly differently.

That's what'll make it good, right? :D

[ACG_pezman]

That's what'll make it good, right? :D

I think most people fly much differently on DED expert and especially Tactical Air War.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

...and even more intensely on FNBF/SNBF/InWar. In my second mission on FNBF we were four fighters escorting a group of six bombers and an unescorted mass of enemy bombers crossed our path. We were deep into enemy territory, so everyone just collectively agreed to leave them be in case enemy fighters showed up. In a free-for-all setting the escort would have scattered seeking easy kills and left the bombers to their own fate.

[Livai]

 

 

Blue always escorted our bombers and Red rarely did

 

Blue fighter planes always escorts He-111 to and back to the target. The Ju-88 only near to the target if the Ju-88 dive down for his own fate. Ju-87 and the Bf-110 fly his own fate to the target.

Red fighter planes are nearby the Pe-2 and IL-2 and fly to the targets. Always fly the Pe-2 and IL-2 unprotected back to their homebase. 

 

I have seen situations from both side where the bombers fly unprotected but that because that are Lone Wolf Bombers. Yes, Lone Wolf Bombers. And who want escort a single Bomber to somewhere else. A Group of Bomber has always protection from fighter planes to and back to the target.

 

A Yak-9 just will raise the bar not to go below 2500m with your eternal Bf-109 to be a fish in a barrel. With a Yak-9 you have a much better view whats happens on your six and around you. A Yak-1 you can easy shoot down from the six because the Yak-1 pilot has a bad view that happens on his six. Many VVS pilots loved the improvements from the Yak-9 specially the much better view what happens behind them.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Hence a Yak 1b would be a good addition to the sim.

[Dakpilot]

Yak 9 was in operational use at Stalingrad from Oct 42

 

http://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Yakovlev%20Yak-9

 

And Yak 1(b) bubble canopy was produced from Aug 42  but standardised spec in Oct 42, and am not sure was present much at Stalingrad, maybe only in final parts of Operation Uranus

 

http://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Yakovlev%20Yak-1&uid=1575

 

Perhaps someone has more accurate historical figures of Yak-9 and Yak-1b (bubble top) in 42/early 43 use at Stalingrad and elsewhere in the BoS timeframe

 

**included the links as general reference only, but it is an interesting site for lots of  info**

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

 

[Brano]

I will just sum up what I have allready posted in this thread,but has been lost in the field of weeds 

 

Yak 1b with lowered rear fuselage has been produced since Dec 42 from 111.series. Tried at Stalingrad till Jan 43 in 176.IAP.

Yak 7b with lowered fuselage has been tested in roughly same period,but in different area. 17.11- 13.12.1942. North-west front. 42.IAP (com.F.I.Shinkarenko) of 240.IAD,6.VA.

 

Both machines have very similar performance in speed,climb and turning. Slight differences are marginal.

 

In fact,Yak-1b is a postwar name from popular literature. There was no such type name in Yakowlev OKB. Changes were continuous.

- from Oct 42 series 99,there was change of armament from 2xShkas+1Shvak to 1 UBS+1Shvak

- followed up to Dec series 111 with retractable tailwheel,hermetisation of fuselage,aerodynamic streamlining to final lowered fuselage from s.111.

 

Yak-7 nomenclature was different.

- Type 7A reffered to machines equipped with M-105PA engine

- changed to M-105PF from may 42 and new designation 7B. From may 42 only PF Klimov were produced.

- lowered fuselage was design feature implemented for both Yak-1 and 7 in roughly same time.

Yak-7B at time of Stalingrad battle were with high gargot/razorback with 2xUBS and 1Shvak. Later 7B with lowered rear fuselage had armament reduced to that of Yak-1"b". That change was introduced around inbetween 22.-32.series in early 1943.

 

PS: Doc Zeebra,you are right.Yak-3 had rear fuselage fabric side parts replaced by plywood with 2mm thickness. I was confused by the scene in the video,where ladies were sewing fabric.It might be that the video is compilation of Yak-1b and Yak-3 production.You might see in some moments front canopy shield with framing = Yak-1b.

Question is,how much vibration would produce fabric covered by "эмалить" (kind of enamel,yet to find out what was its composition).I would say it makes it stiff.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Brano