Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW ?

[216th_Jordan]

Interesting one. It all depends on how much energy you have and how much the enemy has.

 

In the situation you describe (second drawing), if you pull out of the enemy's way and he continues on a separate climb with a less steep break, you can roll around and get a decent shot from 200-300m. This thingy, sort of:

 

 

On the Yak-1 I'm with Nocke - the Klimov is such a petty bastard, I try to get altitude and speed early on and then bring the RPM down to 1900-2200 so I can cool the bastard a bit for combat. Even with radiators fully open on the LaGG-3 and Yak-1 I'm having to take it easy on the engine so that it doesn't overheat.

I just open Rads to 100 when in combat No overheating somehow..

above 4000 I reduce mixture between 5 and 10 % per 1000 meters for max performance.

[Willy__]

 

 

On the Yak-1 I'm with Nocke - the Klimov is such a petty bastard, I try to get altitude and speed early on and then bring the RPM down to 1900-2200 so I can cool the bastard a bit for combat. Even with radiators fully open on the LaGG-3 and Yak-1 I'm having to take it easy on the engine so that it doesn't overheat.

 

You're overthinking too much. Just slam everything to 100% and as long you keep your speed above 300kph that thing hardly overheats. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Oh but I try! The problem is, particularly on summer missions (try out Coconut's server for example) our flight is usually cruising happily at 2000m, radiators fully open, until after five minutes someone will blabber at the radio, "...my engine is cooking up."

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Just tested the yak's mixture.  (I remember the Lagg not being a big difference)  Test done at 6000 meters.  

 

100 mix - 395 km/h

95 mix - 397 km/h

90 mix - 399 km/h

85 mix - 401 km/h

80 mix - 403 km/h

75 mix - 405 km/h

70 mix - 406 km/h

65 mix - 407 km/h

60 mix - 407 km/h

55 mix - 406 km/h

50 mix - 405 km/h

 

It seems you can pick up about 12 km/h by lowering the mixture.  That's a difference worth paying attention to.  The weird thing is that both the RPMs and the MP stay constant.  You would think you would see a difference in both, increasing and decreasing.  

 

Makes me want to test the lagg again.  If the multiplayer is dead again ( probably will be), I will test the lagg later tonight.       

[Willy__]

Could you do the test again with the Yak, but this time at a lower altitude ?

 

At high alt you're supposed to lower the mixture, so the gain there would be kinda obvious. But at lower alts I think the situation change...

[ACG_pezman]

Just tested the yak's mixture. (I remember the Lagg not being a big difference) Test done at 6000 meters.

 

100 mix - 395 km/h

95 mix - 397 km/h

90 mix - 399 km/h

85 mix - 401 km/h

80 mix - 403 km/h

75 mix - 405 km/h

70 mix - 406 km/h

65 mix - 407 km/h

60 mix - 407 km/h

55 mix - 406 km/h

50 mix - 405 km/h

 

It seems you can pick up about 12 km/h by lowering the mixture. That's a difference worth paying attention to. The weird thing is that both the RPMs and the MP stay constant. You would think you would see a difference in both, increasing and decreasing.

 

Makes me want to test the lagg again. If the multiplayer is dead again ( probably will be), I will test the lagg later tonight.

Good stuff snake, but I rarely go above 3.5k in the yak. Aside from that, anyone know mp is so dead lately?

[VBF-12_Snake9]

The test was for high alt to test the difference.

 

I tested the lagg about a year ago and there was a 2 km difference. With the yak there is a 12 km difference. That's why I'm interested if they changed the lagg mixture from a year ago. Who knows what they hide in these patches. Hell they introduce new bugs with every patch.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Same test with lagg.

 

100 mix - 399

95 mix - 400

90 mix - 401

85 mix - 402

80 mix - 403

75 mix - 404

70 mix - 405

65 mix - 405

60 mix - 404

55 mix - 404

50 mix - 403

 

So with the lagg there is now a 6 km/h difference at 6000 meters.  

 

It is interesting that there is only a 2 km/h separation between the lagg and yak at 6000 meters.  All things being equal.  (rads, pitch, and such)

 

I've said it before the lagg is the best all around fighter.     

[YSoMadTovarisch]

Can anyone tell me if there're later Russian planes that automate things like mixture, radiator and supercharger?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

A lot of people are off on holiday now. So far I'm seeing very populated servers at unusual times like central European afternoon, which is Siberian prime time.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Probably because we all take a look, see it's empty and go do something else! :-P

 

In seriousness, I often have to dash off for real world reasons at the moment, if I'm on DED Expert this means I lose my aircraft and I generally put off 'supply' for another day. The ' in war' is too elite for me outside of a squad, and that just leaves WoL which in fairness has not seemed to have so much inane chat recently. But I flew an IL2 last night on it and was kicked for no reason/warning as I turned to make my attack, very frustrating.

 

Sorry for off topic.

 

Interesting... I got kicked from WOL too as soon as I got within range of a Pe-2.

 

This was Friday night.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I've said it before the lagg is the best all around fighter.     

Well, during the testing period I-301 (prototype of Lagg 3) was both faster (actually exceeded 600 km/h) and better climbing then I-26 (Yak prototype), despite higher gross weight and heavier armament. It was only later with placing the emphasis on range and increase of fuel carried, that caused LaGG 3 to drop performance and gave it that bad reputation. But by default design, LaGG was more modern and simply better aircraft then Yak. I always considered Yaks as primitive and simplified to the limits construction. 

 

LaGG 3 FTW 

[LukeFF]

Can anyone tell me if there're later Russian planes that automate things like mixture, radiator and supercharger?

 

Nope

[Sunde]

Just tested the yak's mixture.  (I remember the Lagg not being a big difference)  Test done at 6000 meters.  

 

100 mix - 395 km/h

95 mix - 397 km/h

90 mix - 399 km/h

85 mix - 401 km/h

80 mix - 403 km/h

75 mix - 405 km/h

70 mix - 406 km/h

65 mix - 407 km/h

60 mix - 407 km/h

55 mix - 406 km/h

50 mix - 405 km/h

 

It seems you can pick up about 12 km/h by lowering the mixture.  That's a difference worth paying attention to.  The weird thing is that both the RPMs and the MP stay constant.  You would think you would see a difference in both, increasing and decreasing.  

 

Makes me want to test the lagg again.  If the multiplayer is dead again ( probably will be), I will test the lagg later tonight.       

 This is actually really cool, i had no idea the difference was so significant. Those 109's will stand no chance at 6k now!   Nice job. 

[Nocke]

We are flying different yak's then Mine is happy even in summer at a hard climb. "infinitely" =)

Interesting.

Inspired by your answer I gave it a try, and, against my usual behaviour, switched those technical informations on.

Indeed you can apparently go infinite time with all at 100% and radiators open without an overheating message appearing.

However, if you dont go just straight on autolevel all the time and do a little curving to reduce to 350-400 km-h, water temperature rises to 110°, oil to 113°. Rated water temperatures are 70°-85°, max is 100°. Rated oil is 90°-100°, max 115°.

I have always been flying by gauges only and did not dare to exceed 100° water temperature.

And I will continue to do so.

But yes, technically you are right.

[Nocke]

Just tested the yak's mixture.  (I remember the Lagg not being a big difference)  Test done at 6000 meters.  

 

100 mix - 395 km/h

95 mix - 397 km/h

90 mix - 399 km/h

85 mix - 401 km/h

80 mix - 403 km/h

75 mix - 405 km/h

70 mix - 406 km/h

65 mix - 407 km/h

60 mix - 407 km/h

55 mix - 406 km/h

50 mix - 405 km/h

 

It seems you can pick up about 12 km/h by lowering the mixture.  That's a difference worth paying attention to.  The weird thing is that both the RPMs and the MP stay constant.  You would think you would see a difference in both, increasing and decreasing.  

 

Makes me want to test the lagg again.  If the multiplayer is dead again ( probably will be), I will test the lagg later tonight.       

Not so weird perhaps because the engine can put out more power at same rpm and mp, but with less pitch, i.e. "lower gear"? Just guessing. First I was also wondering how that can be. And supposing we are really controlling rpm, not pitch, in the Yak.

[JtD]

The combustion in the engine gets more efficient as you lower the mixture, that's why you're getting more power and higher speeds. If you leave it at 100% at 6km you're operating way into super rich mixture.

 

The LaGG gains less at 6km because it has a higher full throttle altitude than the Yak. You only need to manually adjust mixture above full throttle altitude, thus the LaGG needs less of an adjustment to get to the best power mixture.

 

http://www.mummbrothers.com/SRF_Stuff/images/Stoich.gif

[Nocke]

what I am really wondering about is:

Do RPM and MP together define the power output completely?

I would suppose they do,

but then it cant be that the Yak at altitude gets faster at constant rpm and MP, but with lower mixture.

I am no engine expert, but my naive guess would be that engine force would be something like pressure x area, while power should be force x length/time, i.e. MP x RPM.

Maybe the error here is to assume piston pressure ~ manifold pressure?

Any expert around here on this?

 

ooops.... and sorry for perhaps derailing the thread, just read the title again

 

edit:

 

Should have switched on my brain before typing. Now I think MP is the pressure the mixture has before detonating, and the pressure resulting from the explosion will of course depend on the mixture ratio.

Everything sorted out therefore. Power is determined by RPM, MP AND mixture.

Off now...

Edited June 14, 2016 by 216th_Nocke

[216th_Jordan]

Maybe the error here is to assume piston pressure ~ manifold pressure?

 

You got it right there!

Roughly speaking manifold pressure is the 'air'-pressure in the manifold inlet that goes into the engine, measured against earths atmosphere. This pressure is actually inverted. The higher you gauge shows in your plane the lower the pressure gets on the inlet because the engine is set to take up more air. On most engines you open up the manifold inlet by throttle setting. Often the manifold already carries the fuel/air mixture. How rich or lean the mixture is only matters in over-rich and over-lean scenarios.

[CisTer-dB-]

Hi, This is some good testing thanks.

 

It's normal that the RPM stay the same since the prop governor should change the angle of the propeller the keep the same RPM. As for the manifold pressure it should increase and/or decrease as you adjust the mixture, that is how we adjust it by looking at the manifold pressure drop and the EGT

 

o7  

Just tested the yak's mixture.  (I remember the Lagg not being a big difference)  Test done at 6000 meters.  

 

100 mix - 395 km/h

95 mix - 397 km/h

90 mix - 399 km/h

85 mix - 401 km/h

80 mix - 403 km/h

75 mix - 405 km/h

70 mix - 406 km/h

65 mix - 407 km/h

60 mix - 407 km/h

55 mix - 406 km/h

50 mix - 405 km/h

 

It seems you can pick up about 12 km/h by lowering the mixture.  That's a difference worth paying attention to.  The weird thing is that both the RPMs and the MP stay constant.  You would think you would see a difference in both, increasing and decreasing.  

 

Makes me want to test the lagg again.  If the multiplayer is dead again ( probably will be), I will test the lagg later tonight.       

Edited June 21, 2016 by ATAG_dB

[Mac_Messer]

The combustion in the engine gets more efficient as you lower the mixture, that's why you're getting more power and higher speeds. If you leave it at 100% at 6km you're operating way into super rich mixture.

 

The LaGG gains less at 6km because it has a higher full throttle altitude than the Yak. You only need to manually adjust mixture above full throttle altitude, thus the LaGG needs less of an adjustment to get to the best power mixture.

 

http://www.mummbrothers.com/SRF_Stuff/images/Stoich.gif

Speaking of those planes, which Supercharger stages altitudes to change gears at are correct?Before the patch I viewed forum guide it said 2000m for LaGG, and 2500m for Yak but after the patch ingame notes say 2300m...?

Interesting.

Inspired by your answer I gave it a try, and, against my usual behaviour, switched those technical informations on.

Indeed you can apparently go infinite time with all at 100% and radiators open without an overheating message appearing.

However, if you dont go just straight on autolevel all the time and do a little curving to reduce to 350-400 km-h, water temperature rises to 110°, oil to 113°. Rated water temperatures are 70°-85°, max is 100°. Rated oil is 90°-100°, max 115°.

I have always been flying by gauges only and did not dare to exceed 100° water temperature.

And I will continue to do so.

But yes, technically you are right.

With tips visible I don`t get overheating messages till at least 110C deg. on either water or oil temp.

You got it right there!

Roughly speaking manifold pressure is the 'air'-pressure in the manifold inlet that goes into the engine, measured against earths atmosphere. This pressure is actually inverted. The higher you gauge shows in your plane the lower the pressure gets on the inlet because the engine is set to take up more air. On most engines you open up the manifold inlet by throttle setting. Often the manifold already carries the fuel/air mixture. How rich or lean the mixture is only matters in over-rich and over-lean scenarios.

Does fuel consumption differ between say 40% mixture and 90% mixture?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Once you reach 3000m with the M-105P engine and 2000m with the M-105PF engine, put the second stage of supercharger

 

From a translated manual for pilot and engine techniques for the Yak-1, Yak-7, Yak-9, and the M-105P and M-105PF engine.

[CisTer-dB-]

 

Does fuel consumption differ between say 40% mixture and 90% mixture?

 

I am not sure if it's modeled but It's should 

[216th_Jordan]

I am not sure if it's modeled but It's should

definately modeled. I always cut rpm and mixture when im low on fuel and need to rtb. works wonders.

Edited June 22, 2016 by 71st_AH_Jordan

[CisTer-dB-]

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Yea for ultimate fuel saving you can cut mixture to 0% in the Yak and still cruise at 350km/h!

[216th_Jordan]

Yea for ultimate fuel saving you can cut mixture to 0% in the Yak and still cruise at 350km/h!

 

How do you do that?

mine always cuts out  

[wtornado]

The YAK just split S's like no other plane with flaps.

[Dakpilot]

The YAK just split S's like no other plane with flaps.

 

How accurate/ realistic that is I won't comment on

 

But the Yak does have a flap system different to every other aircraft, In the original Yak-1 manual pilots are advised that to avoid sink while climbing out, to not retract flaps but allow airspeed to build and let the airflow push them back in slowly, then 'retract/lock them up' when fully in

 

I imagine this 'mechanic' will have an effect different to all other aircraft, Russian WWII pilot's mention using flaps when attacking bombers to increase maneuverability, but did not advocate their use when dealing with fighters due to too much drag affecting speed, and thus compromising combat effectiveness

 

I am not saying Yak flaps are perfect/correct, but they seem different to other aircraft because they were different 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

How accurate/ realistic that is I won't comment on

 

But the Yak does have a flap system different to every other aircraft, In the original Yak-1 manual pilots are advised that to avoid sink while climbing out, to not retract flaps but allow airspeed to build and let the airflow push them back in slowly, then 'retract/lock them up' when fully in

 

I imagine this 'mechanic' will have an effect different to all other aircraft, Russian WWII pilot's mention using flaps when attacking bombers to increase maneuverability, but did not advocate their use when dealing with fighters due to too much drag affecting speed, and thus compromising combat effectiveness

 

I am not saying Yak flaps are perfect/correct, but they seem different to other aircraft because they were different 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Mechanical differences don't make things magically functional. Flaps are flaps.

 

The first line in your post seems to point that out - what's the shame in saying it like it is?

Yea for ultimate fuel saving you can cut mixture to 0% in the Yak and still cruise at 350km/h!

 

Yup. I've been tinkering with the VVS stuff and noticed this myself... 

 

How do you do that?

mine always cuts out

 

Mine doesn't. I can fly on full-lean till I burn the engine up. 

[JtD]

In the original Yak-1 manual pilots are advised that to avoid sink while climbing out, to not retract flaps but allow airspeed to build and let the airflow push them back in slowly, then 'retract/lock them up' when fully in

More accurately, the manuals advise to de-pressurize the system so that the air is able to gradually push in the flaps as the internal pressure of the system is dropping.

[Dakpilot]

Mechanical differences don't make things magically functional. Flaps are flaps.

 

The first line in your post seems to point that out - what's the shame in saying it like it is?

 

 

The fact that the Yak flaps are auto adjusted and pushed in by airspeed will make the coefficient of lift and drag infinitely variable as the airspeed changes during manoeuvres 

 

This is a fundamental difference compared to other aircraft in the way they are deployed and affect performance during flight

 

I make my non comment on how realistic it is because I do not have the data to compare the Real life variable CL to what we have in game

 

Tests have shown that drag and CL seems correct now at full flaps, or at least within close limits

 

anyway this is now getting dangerously close to FM discussion and Yak flaps have their own thread there 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited June 23, 2016 by Dakpilot

[Tomsk]

Every single defeat in an aerial combat is the pilot's fault, this is a fact of life.

 

This! So nice to see it articulated clearly. I've very much tried to make this my philosophy. If I end up hurtling towards the ground in a ball of fire the first question I need to ask is "okay where did I make the biggest mistakes?". Any thoughts of "If only my plane was faster, turned better, climbed better" or anything like it need to be dropped. My choice of plane only determines which engagements I can tackle, in what circumstances, and in what ways. Whether I succeed or fail is down to my piloting skills, and the choices I made, not the plane.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Tomsk

[ShamrockOneFive]

This! Well said Tomsk!

 

But it seems that folks don't like to take personal responsibility. It's always something or someone else to blame.

 

Know your plane, know your tactics, and the only competition you should really be having is with yourself - continual self improvement. Whenever you loose a battle you need to ask yourself where you went wrong and how to avoid/mitigate that situation in the future.

[JG13_opcode]

Agree with "know your plane", as the engineering of the aircraft dictates the tactics.

 

The Luftwaffe aircraft have it much easier but the Yak does stand a chance online.  Case in point:  see attached.  All in the Yak last night, solo.

Edited June 30, 2016 by 13GIAP_opcode

[Turban]

That's just wishful thinking.

 

AC perfs are not the only factor but it's a pretty big/huge one. Sure if the german is bad, you can shoot it with an I16. Sure it's possible to get 6 kills in a mission. That's no argument.

 

The topic of this thread was about getting a more even playing field not about "is it possible to shoot down germans planes". 

[JG13_opcode]

The point of the screenshot was to illustrate that it's somewhere in the vicinity of even. I am not the best dogfighter out there, and if I can go 6:1 then you can too.

[Turban]

The point of the screenshot was to illustrate that it's somewhere in the vicinity of even. I am not the best dogfighter out there, and if I can go 6:1 then you can too.

Course I can, it's not the point of this thread. Just because I can doesn't mean the planeset is even. Planes are tools, if you know how to use them you might get results even if it's not the best tools.

 

It's not the point of this thread. This thread is about reducing performance difference in the planeset between VVS/LW. 

[KoN_]

Agree with "know your plane", as the engineering of the aircraft dictates the tactics.

 

The Luftwaffe aircraft have it much easier but the Yak does stand a chance online.  Case in point:  see attached.  All in the Yak last night, solo.

From what i have seen this week on WOL the LW aircraft are easier to bring down . A few hits and its over . 

Edited June 30, 2016 by II./JG77_Con

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

This thread is about reducing performance difference in the planeset between VVS/LW. 

 

Which is very, very slim, and not as one-sided as you put it. Honestly, a few weeks ago I was carelessly fighting two C.202s, one Bf-110 and two Bf-109F in the LaGG-3 alone and it was a turkey shoot for me. I could roll out of every attack, and whenever I was done shooting I revved up the engine and did a spiral climb to reposition. I damaged the Bf-110, brought down the Bf-109F and landed peacefully.

 

During that fight another Bf-109F decided to play cosmonaut with me and went up to 6000m while I sat at 3000m, but at the speeds he was in any sudden change of direction and I defeated his shot.

 

Honestly, 2 extra m/s of climb rate or another 20 km/h won't save the day or change the game around.