Flaps fixed?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

my oh my do the fangs come out on a 109 rap. like its shows, the weight to stall is way off. 65 to 70 KPH before it falls; come on now. I would believe 90 to 100 kph.

 

It's really hard for any of us to discern what you are saying when you yourself seem unsure of what you're saying.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

my oh my do the fangs come out on a 109 rap. like its shows, the weight to stall is way off. 65 to 70 KPH before it falls; come on now.

1. Those planes have 3 tons of weight in average. That's a lot of momentum.

2. Stall speed is tied to angle of attack. If you don't pull any AoA the plane is flying in a parabolic trajectory like an arrow or rocket. Hence why modern planes for example are build to lower the nose if you plane flies too slow, to prevent the pilot from pulling too high AoAs and eventually stall the airplane.

3. Incase you are referring to his "loops", this is caused by grvaity and frankly has nothing to do wiht flaps. Gliders can also fly loops and they don't use flaps.

 

The things that were bugged with the Yak's flaps before was too consistent controll authority at low speed (ie. anough autority top hold the nsoe steady for accurate shots, turn slightly, ect) and no stall tendnecies (ie the tendnecy to drop a wing or shift the nose when flying at critical speeds). Reason for this behaviour was that oyu could basicly pull AoAs without the threat to stall the aircraft. I'm carefull not to say it's fixed since the patch since it requires a lot of testing to confirm this statement but it has been clearly improved not only on the Yak, but also IL-2 (IL-2 copter was a common sight since beta).

Edited February 21, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Dr_Molenbeek]

So far i've never seen a 109 popping flaps at high speed, even a small 5 or 10°. Because if he does it, this would have a negative effect. Completely the opposite of Yak-1's case...

[HagarTheHorrible]

I don't pretend to know much about aerodynamics, but wouldn't you expect any of the aircraft, not just the Yak, to start an increasingly strong uncommanded roll when you go below flying speed ? Pitching up with flaps extended would obviously I assume be more difficult to counter this effect because it would all happen a lot faster with fewer chances to limit it's effect ?. Wouldn't having full flaps deployed, such as in the Yak exploit, exaggerate that ?

 

Secondly, if full flaps are deployed, doesn't it move the CoG backwards on the wing with the result that more energy is required to lift the nose ?

Edited February 21, 2016 by HagarTheHorrible

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa9jFxBBwWg

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF9E3eOibNI

Edited February 21, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

 thank you makes more sense. Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Guest deleted@50488]

I honestly see nothing wrong with that Me109 youtube.

 

Actually all I see is a good flight dynamics model in action.

 

What exactly do you think is wrong ?

[Cloyd]

 thank you makes more sense. Stab/JG26_5tuka

Yes, 5tuka, very useful vids. Thanks

 

Cloyd

[Y-29.Silky]

So far i've never seen a 109 popping flaps at high speed, even a small 5 or 10°. Because if he does it, this would have a negative effect. Completely the opposite of Yak-1's case...

On what evidence are you basing this off of?

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

For me was also the best patch, now it feel's like flying when yak's drops his flaps (and some crazy la5 pilots) you can now separate in altitude and distance was before really impossible in a dogfight.

We demolish the last two day the RED Air forces was much fun, and most pilots still rely on the flaps that's now not a good thing against experienced pilots.  

[Adler_]

I had some experience today with a Yak trying to use full flaps..Lets say it didn't go well for him ,had almost stalled/crashed. So I am pretty happy about that patch

[Guest deleted@50488]

I had some experience today with a Yak trying to use full flaps..Lets say it didn't go well for him ,had almost stalled/crashed. So I am pretty happy about that patch

 

You're meen Addler, poor Yak...

[Livai]

Hmmm, if I look at this video here I see not the problem about the Yak-1. I see just how a Bf-109 is superior......

 

What the whole video but the best part is from 3:55 to 4:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV3uvfJY1Go

[coconut]

 

 

Hmmm, if I look at this video here I see not the problem about the Yak-1. I see just how a Bf-109 is superior......

 

Video from dec. 2014. At that time the F4 was superior to the Yak in pretty much all departments. I remember those days in the Yak. Try to keep an altitude advantage and you would lose your ailerons on the first dive. Try to turn-fight at low speed and you would only manage to keep up with the F4 when turning right. The Yak was supposedly better in the middle speed range, around 400km/h. Keeping the fight there wasn't easy. No idea if this was historically accurate or not, but I'm not missing those days. For a beginner, flying Russian was not really an option.

[Livai]

Video from dec. 2014. At that time the F4 was superior to the Yak in pretty much all departments. I remember those days in the Yak. Try to keep an altitude advantage and you would lose your ailerons on the first dive. Try to turn-fight at low speed and you would only manage to keep up with the F4 when turning right. The Yak was supposedly better in the middle speed range, around 400km/h. Keeping the fight there wasn't easy. No idea if this was historically accurate or not, but I'm not missing those days. For a beginner, flying Russian was not really an option.

 

Even if this video is from dec.2014 it still count to use it like a Source that the gameplay has changed!

[mb339pan]

I honestly see nothing wrong with that Me109 youtube.

 

Actually all I see is a good flight dynamics model in action.

 

What exactly do you think is wrong ?

 

flaps lowered virtually all (90%) to 480 km / h are not damaged, the 'aircraft remains extremely composed even after repeated repeated callbacks at very low speed with plane at 90° , no hint of uncontrolled stalemate.

just like the yak with lowered flaps.

for the community Messerscopter is ok, Yakcopter is op of course...

 

I only play online on German side

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

For me can the flaps be damaged at 201 km/h per our, this flaps flying have only negative sides now as it should be.

Was wrong for messer and yak, but honestly no one is crying about messer flaps because they are to slow to extend and to retract to give any advantage.

Only thing you sitting on the ground slow and low for bicked up for the rest of enemy they see the dogfight.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

flaps lowered virtually all (90%) to 480 km / h are not damaged, the 'aircraft remains extremely composed even after repeated repeated callbacks at very low speed with plane at 90° , no hint of uncontrolled stalemate.

just like the yak with lowered flaps.

for the community Messerscopter is ok, Yakcopter is op of course...

 

I only play online on German side

That's a general game flaw though. Try the same with a Lagg, IL-2 or Stuka, flap damage will only occure at very high airpeeds (for the Bf-109 flaps get stuck at ~650km/h while ripping off at ~720km/h).

 

That has nothign to do with the aerodynamical advanategs the Yak had before the patch at all. It also doesn't give the Bf-109 any benefit as people have carefully tested previously.

[Y-29.Silky]

messer flaps because they are to slow to extend and to retract to give any advantage.

They give a great advantage! I like to get down and dirty against the Russians and there's been a few times I've been in fights where it took 3-4 turns, lowering the flaps slightly gave me gun solutions.

[RoteDreizehn]

For me can the flaps be damaged at 201 km/h per our, this flaps flying have only negative sides now as it should be.

Was wrong for messer and yak, but honestly no one is crying about messer flaps because they are to slow to extend and to retract to give any advantage.

Only thing you sitting on the ground slow and low for bicked up for the rest of enemy they see the dogfight.

 

absolutely! Cant understand why E7 Flaps jams correctly and F2 F4 G2 will only jams at high Speed.

 

~ 650 km/h for me unrealistic. ask for it already, but not respones...

 

Are there any changes to the airframe or wings above E7? Dont know about that..... Maybe I am wrong....

Edited February 22, 2016 by RoteDreizehn

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Yes, the E-7 has conventional flaps while the F and later models have them incooperated into the cooling system. Although both are nearly entirely different I agree flaps damage (caused by speed and Gs) is handled too lightly in BoS.

 

Still that's nothing exclusively with the F-4.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[RoteDreizehn]

Yes, the E-7 has conventional flaps while the F and later models have them incooperated into the cooling system. Although both are nearly entirely different I agree flaps damage (caused by speed and Gs) is handled too lightly in BoS.

 

Still that's nothing exclusively with the F-4.

 

ups - indeed. didnt realized that. Not sure that flaps integrated into cooling System will avoid jam above 300 km/h. As you already said too slightly handeled in BOS.

Also Yak1 with pneumatic flaps should be damaged at high speed...

Dont want to troll here or insult the Dev`s

Edited February 22, 2016 by RoteDreizehn

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Dont want to troll here or insult the Dev`s

 

It's a shame that a lot of us seem conditioned that even a gentle criticism or a mere observation means that you're insulting or trolling someone the developers.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[303_Kwiatek]

Most these planes should have low g ultimate load factor with flaps down

[RoteDreizehn]

It's a shame that a lot of us seem conditioned that even a gentle criticism or a mere observation means that you're insulting or trolling someone the developers.

 

wrote this to avoid possible further troll posts after my post...

 

The Dev's do much for us in the last time to extend this marvelous simulator. I appreciate the work of Jason, LOFT and Dev's and hope they will review the flaps behavior.

 

The feel of flight is always the best in BOS/BOM what I have seen so far. DCS can't reach this level of FM. Only my opinion...

 

Dont understand me wrong. I am not a fanboy of IL2 BOS.

 

But thank's for your support Space_Ghost

Edited February 23, 2016 by RoteDreizehn

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

absolutely! Cant understand why E7 Flaps jams correctly and F2 F4 G2 will only jams at high Speed.

 

~ 650 km/h for me unrealistic. ask for it already, but not respones...

 

Are there any changes to the airframe or wings above E7? Dont know about that..... Maybe I am wrong....

I think, Vf and Vfe speeds are bad-modeled, or incorrect, probably for all airplanes in BoS/BoM.

 

Flaps jammed and ripped in the Bf-109 G2 if you try to deployed at over 780Kph, ..That is worng. .. I think, the  Vfe (Full flaps speed) for G2 is 250kph .

 

 

In the Yak-1 is possible deploy flaps in the BoS at any speed and flaps no jamming or ripping until 740 Kph. that is wrong too !!.   What is the Vfe for Yak-1, about 170kph??

 

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by III/JG52_Otto-I-

[Dr_Molenbeek]

If flaps were so strong in RL, i'm wondering why the Mustang had such restrictions...

 

[ACG_pezman]

If flaps were so strong in RL, i'm wondering why the Mustang had such restrictions...

 

For those of us who are lazy:

 

400mph IAS = 640kph IAS

275mph IAS = 440kph IAS

225mph IAS = 370kph IAS

180mph IAS = 288kph IAS

165mph IAS = 264kph IAS

 

Now, from my understanding, the Mustang was one of the first aircraft to have combat flaps built in for the purpose of using in combat.  However, as this forum has proven many time, I should just [EDITED] because I really don't know this [Edited].  Which is probably the reason I love this sim so much because I have no preconceived notions on how aircraft are supposed to preform, so it all feels fine to me.  Except that evil snap-roll in the 190.  I guess that's accurate but I hate it.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Bearcat

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

For those of us who are lazy:

 

400mph IAS = 640kph IAS

275mph IAS = 440kph IAS

225mph IAS = 370kph IAS

180mph IAS = 288kph IAS

165mph IAS = 264kph IAS

 

Now, from my understanding, the Mustang was one of the first aircraft to have combat flaps built in for the purpose of using in combat.  However, as this forum has proven many time, I should just stfu because I really don't know this shit.  Which is probably the reason I love this sim so much because I have no preconceived notions on how aircraft are supposed to preform, so it all feels fine to me.  Except that evil snap-roll in the 190.  I guess that's accurate but I hate it.

 

I would argue that it would be the P-38G and some of the Japanese fighters that had fowler/butterfly flaps.

 

And P-38G flap settings in "maneuver" position (approximately half deployed) had limit of 250mph

 

[Dakpilot]

In the Yak-1 is possible deploy flaps in the BoS at any speed and flaps no jamming or ripping until 740 Kph. that is wrong too !!.   What is the Vfe for Yak-1, about 170kph??

 

 

 

In the Yak-1 manual, minimum flap retract speed is recommended 250kmh (to avoid sink)

 

It is also recommended standard practice (manual) to leave them out, and allow them to be pushed back in by air pressure by selecting 'neutral' position. When fully pushed in the selector can then be moved to 'up' to lock them

 

It is not so black and white to say Yak flaps 'must be jammed or ripped off ' or what their Vfe is

 

There are also reports of Yak pilots using flaps in combat against Bombers, asked why not against fighters, the reply was that the extra drag outweighed the turn benefits and no pilot want to lose speed in a fight

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[303_Kwiatek]

More important then speed is g load resistance flaps got usually much lower value then clean wing

Edited February 23, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[Guest deleted@50488]

I'm getting confused...

 

Been playing for couple of days now, and truth is no Yak-1 was able to do the same against my 109s or 190... Of course I still get easily shot down in a coupl of minutes as most, when going into a 1x1 combat with some seasoned player, but watching the Yak use it's flaps to it's advantage in an unrealistic way didn't happen since last patch...

 

I have now to fly the Yak-1 myself, and try it with and without flaps, so YES, apparently it is fixed.

 

Regarding other issues, like some of you thinking that flaps should not be deployed without consequences, at higher speeds, on this and other aircraft in the game, maybe we should start separate threads for each case ?

[SR-F_Winger]

I am pleasantly surprised as well. No flappydy TRON-YAKs anymore.

No fix the rollrates of some planes, some high alt overperformance and the climbperformance of the FW and I am all "YAY" again.

[303_Kwiatek]

Flying with new flaps fix i think yak-1 with flaps down still is better dogfighter with flaps then 109 but now energy tactics in 109 are more efficent like it should be

Now we need fix for high alt overperformance some planes and fix roll rate overperformers

[Guest deleted@50488]

I strongly believe we will get all that with time.

 

I also strongly believe there is no intentional bias in the IL2 BoS / BoM Devs work. At least for me it is clear that if there was, then some of the loimitations i find in the Russian fighters would not be modeled, some of them overdone IMO...

 

Then, the core flight dynamics used in Il2 is crtainly a very complex and tricky one to deal with and, as a DCS user, i can't really compare the amount of content 1C 777 has made available during the last two years, while in DCS I got 3 ww2 fighters, with one of them still in beta, and the other two still getting fixes here and there... In il2 BoS I get all of these fighters and bombers, of high quality, and it is, I believe, almost impossibl to do a better work in the amount of working hours a week has.... At least I couldn't do it, and I believe these guys probably also have... families....

[Jade_Monkey]

I strongly believe we will get all that with time.

 

I also strongly believe there is no intentional bias in the IL2 BoS / BoM Devs work. At least for me it is clear that if there was, then some of the loimitations i find in the Russian fighters would not be modeled, some of them overdone IMO...

 

Then, the core flight dynamics used in Il2 is crtainly a very complex and tricky one to deal with and, as a DCS user, i can't really compare the amount of content 1C 777 has made available during the last two years, while in DCS I got 3 ww2 fighters, with one of them still in beta, and the other two still getting fixes here and there... In il2 BoS I get all of these fighters and bombers, of high quality, and it is, I believe, almost impossibl to do a better work in the amount of working hours a week has.... At least I couldn't do it, and I believe these guys probably also have... families....

On top of that, while IL2 devoppers do everything (maps, planes, engine) a lot of the DCS planes are developped by independent teams. That just shows how har they are working on Il2

[ACG_pezman]

On top of that, while IL2 devoppers do everything (maps, planes, engine) a lot of the DCS planes are developped by independent teams. That just shows how har they are working on Il2

Imagine what would happen to BOS if they allowed more third party developers to participate.  Of course this can be real risky too, as we have seen in DCS, but it also provides the ability for a community to really contribute to a sim. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Imagine what would happen to BOS if they allowed more third party developers to participate. 

 

-snip-

 

They'd find themselves in a trickier PR situation than they've already worked themselves in to a few times the past couple of years.

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

They'd find themselves in a trickier PR situation than they've already worked themselves in to a few times the past couple of years.

Really, Games don't need PR, you just play them. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Really, Games don't need PR, you just play them. 

 

I'd ask Ubisoft or EA about that theory.