Ju-88 ETA, release date

[ShamrockOneFive]

I've only ever read that the top rear gunner station was manned by one person and that the gunner there went back and forth between stations as needed... the two opening up a slightly wide range of defensive angles than the single station seen on the Ju88A-1. Is that incorrect?

[Yogiflight]

I don`t think the firing angle was larger for the A4, because in the A1 the rear machinegun was in a round turnable bubble. By turning the gun to the right or left side the angle to the sides was enlargened.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Does anyone have any technical information on the angle sweeps for the two positions?

[Dakpilot]

Why would the Luftwaffe fly IL-4s?

 

I am not suggesting the Luftwaffe fly IL-4...   but surely the fact that Russian forces have no decent (larger) multi crew aircraft and yet the Luftwaffe has He-111 and Ju-88, two heavy resource development aircraft, show no particular  VVS bias, dev time could have been used on IL-4 as example and a simpler aircraft provided for Luftwaffe

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Asgar]

well...they make representative plane sets...pe-2 is one of the most used planes so is the Ju-88

[Lusekofte]

Yes I know, sorry, but I don`t understand, why we don`t get those two machineguns shooting at the same time. As I asked in the Developers Question, why not the button "change sides in a turret" between forward and right rear machinegun. Don`t understand me wrong, the Ju88 looks absolutely great, and I am waiting to be able to fly it finally, but there are things to make it better.

 

If you seek on youtube you will find inside filming about a gunner using both guns. He fires first the left one and then moves to the right one. Are you sure it is a good idea to fire both at the same time, knowing it is a tail behind there some place. It is not a gun you want to shoot blind. 

If all these planes are going to be available in one server , it is totally advantage to the LW, in my opinion the fair thing would be to give VVS a IL 4 or a DB 3 instead. This Bias crap is growing a bit old. I think it is time to fly cvs before you think Russian bias theory hold water 

[Asgar]

if you want to talk balance go to one of the 1000 balance threads. just stop it Luse, you always complain about the same thing

[Dakpilot]

Nobody would complain about it if people stop crying bias!   and trying to defend those who do

 

This thread side track is a direct result of that being said yet again....no matter how subtly it is slipped in .....good grief

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited March 21, 2016 by Dakpilot

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Chill out Asgar, Yogi started insinuating bias, Dakpilot and Luse replied appropriately.

[Asgar]

i don't care who said what. but every thread, every discussion. Luse starts talking how superior the German bomber are...it's getting boring, it's simply wrong. and it's off-topic. Yogi even said he's sorry so i don't see a reason to keep this useless discussion going. 

and i don't need to chill, because i'm calm. 

edit: i'm talking about planes that are actually in the game so: He 111 vs Pe2 ser 35 and 87. and the Pe are superior for one simply reason. 90% of the time they actually reach there target. a task that's difficult to achieve in the slow and un-maneuverable 111

Edited March 21, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[Brano]

Looking at drawing crossection of rear cockpit area,it has no more then 1m in width where those "bulges" start extending it to some 1.2m. Thats not what I would call a space for 2 gunners,who can operate the guns independently without interfering with each other. Imagine left gunner would follow enemy fighter to the left and the right one to the right

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Nothing wrong with what Yogi did, that discussion is close; I just think there is no need to go all aggressive because somebody voiced an opinion. Factually speaking the Pe-2 is extremely underpowered as a medium, level bomber if compared to the Ju-88 and the He-111. It lacks the bomb load and the defensive armament to be even comparable to them in that respect.

 

Yes, it is an outstanding attack aircraft and dive-bomber, and F/SNBF results show that it can lay waste to whole airfields or concentrations. But it does that by diving through the middle of fighter swarms and deadly AAA fire, dropping bombs extremely close to the ground in a way that any mistake or damage and you are dead. In other words, they get through and they get the job done because of sheer cojones.

 

The Luftwaffe has the Bf-110 with a similar bomb load and speed for that, for example. The fact that the VVS lacks a proper medium bomber as opposed to a light/dive bomber/attack aircraft is hard to dispute.

 

Back on topic, it seems the Ju-88 gunner positions are hard for two people to man, and in any case most of the time you have a bomber being attacked by one or two fighters coming in from the same direction so the usability seems a tiny.

[Lusekofte]

if you want to talk balance go to one of the 1000 balance threads. just stop it Luse, you always complain about the same thing

 

You talk about complaining ??? wtf 

You of all??

 

It is ridiculous coming from you , I haven't complained about anything, the whining in this game is LW side only and you sing SOLO . So please let me express my honest opinion like you do in all topics every hour every day every week every year, I am entitled like you are.

Stop being  narcissistic , you are not alone in this site

Looking at drawing crossection of rear cockpit area,it has no more then 1m in width where those "bulges" start extending it to some 1.2m. Thats not what I would call a space for 2 gunners,who can operate the guns independently without interfering with each other. Imagine left gunner would follow enemy fighter to the left and the right one to the right

 

It is one gunner behind in total 4 crew, but the guns was operated separate and there was no way safe to fire them simultaneous . You risked hitting your own plane by doing so. The aiming was for one gun not two

Edited March 21, 2016 by EG14_LuseKofte

[Asgar]

not sure you know the difference between discussing and whining. I don't think i ever used the Russian bias club in on this forum 

[Lusekofte]

i don't care who said what. but every thread, every discussion. Luse starts talking how superior the German bomber are...it's getting boring, it's simply wrong. and it's off-topic. Yogi even said he's sorry so i don't see a reason to keep this useless discussion going. 

 

and i don't need to chill, because i'm calm. 

 

edit: i'm talking about planes that are actually in the game so: He 111 vs Pe2 ser 35 and 87. and the Pe are superior for one simply reason. 90% of the time they actually reach there target. a task that's difficult to achieve in the slow and un-maneuverable 111

I fly LW when they are outnumbered you got the same chance in a Heinkel as in a PE 2 if the fighter pilot chasing you are a little experienced you cannot out turn him 

The thing is, it was brought up and I disagreed and you attacked me for disagreeing, I find myself agreeing with you most of the time. I just do not find your reply here very relevant to mine history of post´s . 

I have my opinions on balanced plane set , and you have yours

[Asgar]

i didn't attack anyone. i pointed out that you bring up the same topic in every discussion. and the question whether the German or the Russian bombers (which are at the moment only the Heinkel and the 2 Pe-2s) are superior. I don't agree with Yogi either but at least he was talking about the Ju-88 in a Ju-88 thread. 

anyway. have a great day gents. i will find some other discussion. I don't see either German or Russian bias in this game and therefore see no reason to continue this

Edited March 21, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[Yogiflight]

Of course not one gunner is able to fire both guns at the same time. But the radio operator firing the left and the navigator firing the right rear machinegun is definitely possible and it is written in the instructions, that the navigator can shoot the right rear machinegun. It would not make any sense to let him sit behind the forward gun, waiting for a fighter that attacks a bomber in front of the own, instead of going to the rear of the cockpit and support the radio operator in defending the own aircraft, two guns instead of one means two times the chance to hit the attacking fighter.

And about russian medium bomber, how about the next game with Tu-2S, a very impressing bomber, I think. Bombload up to 4000kg and defensive armament with two 20mm guns to the rear.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Yogiflight

[Lusekofte]

the cramped space in the JU 88 made accurate aiming for two people impossible, you need all the room to be able to move 1 gun. I read that the observer (bombaimer, navigator) Usually the highest ranked officer and flight commander removed the frontgun since it was rendered useless and took too much space. But the way this game work I think a easy key command to change between the guns are the most effective, as all things in life the best gunner is yourself.

I have shot down a few fighters with my gunner in the PE 2 , and the gun is already pointed towards the target when I enter turret, luck or not but a short burst from me disable the fighter. While the ai gunner that did the initial aiming miss

 

@Asgar

 

I am sorry, I might have mention my wish for a VVS level bomber a bit too much, and I lost a bit of temper earlier.  I have no intention getting unfriendly with you. I have learned a lot from your post, you make many good points and give interesting information. I apologize 

Edited March 21, 2016 by EG14_LuseKofte

[Brano]

@Yogi

Tu-2 had either Shkas or UBT as defensive guns in the "rear". 2x Shvak were fixed forward firing.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Brano

[Asgar]

the cramped space in the JU 88 made accurate aiming for two people impossible, you need all the room to be able to move 1 gun. I read that the observer (bombaimer, navigator) Usually the highest ranked officer and flight commander removed the frontgun since it was rendered useless and took too much space. But the way this game work I think a easy key command to change between the guns are the most effective, as all things in life the best gunner is yourself.

I have shot down a few fighters with my gunner in the PE 2 , and the gun is already pointed towards the target when I enter turret, luck or not but a short burst from me disable the fighter. While the ai gunner that did the initial aiming miss

 

@Asgar

 

I am sorry, I might have mention my wish for a VVS level bomber a bit too much, and I lost a bit of temper earlier.  I have no intention getting unfriendly with you. I have learned a lot from your post, you make many good points and give interesting information. I apologize 

no need to apologize buddy. i probably could've phrased my point better as well. (that happens when you have to make your posts in a short amount of time during work i guess) I'm sure we will a greater variety of VVS level bombers in the future

Edited March 21, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[Yogiflight]

Thanks for the information Brano, now I viewed the youtube video, not that I did understand a lot of the russian speaker, but it got clear that the 20mm were shooting through the propeller hub and the rearguns had another caliber (12.7mm). Nevertheless an impressing bomber the "Big Brother" of the Peshka.

[Lusekofte]

The TU 2 was my favorite plane in old IL 2, I even rewrote PE2 campaigns and had a helluva work timing the fighters and everything else. 

 

I have forgotten about this plane

TU 2: 

• Guns:
  • 2 × 20 mm (0.79 in) fixed forward-firing ShVAK cannon in the wings
  • 3 × 7.62 mm (0.30 in) rear-firing ShKAS machine guns (later replaced by 12.7 mm (0.50 in) Berezin UB machine guns) in the canopy, dorsal and ventral hatches.

     Bombs: 

           1,500 kg (3,300 lb) internally and 2,270 kg (5,000 lb) externally

 

DB 3: Up to 2,500 kg (5,500 lb) of bombs

 

IL 4: Bombs: Up to 2,700 kg (6,000 lb) of bombs or mines.

        Rockets: 2 × BETAB-750DS 305 mm rockets.^[11]

          Missiles: 1 × 940 kg (2,100 lb) Type 45-36 torpedo^[10]

 

^{It seems your idea is better than me Yogiflight}

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Well, at least we don't need to wait 88 gunner to open any hatch and deploy the gun.

 

I really hope that we don't get some crazy slow firing solutions from AI switching between left and right mgs.

[Brano]

Thanks for the information Brano, now I viewed the youtube video, not that I did understand a lot of the russian speaker, but it got clear that the 20mm were shooting through the propeller hub and the rearguns had another caliber (12.7mm). Nevertheless an impressing bomber the "Big Brother" of the Peshka.

You are welcome.Just to put things into correct perspective.Shvaks were not firing thru propeller hub and not even thru propeller blades.They were mounted in the roots of the wing right next to the fuselage.Check the drawing 

 

http://aircraftdrawingsdownload.com/tupolev_tu_2_drawings.php

[Lusekofte]

at 2:28 give a idea. Historical pow I have seen the change, it was done by a split second, but you have to aim again. It is not the same as one turret. My guess is they wanted to have a different line of fire than middle where the tail is

[Yogiflight]

Ok Brano, I took another look at the video and now I saw it. The problem was, that when the russian speaker was telling about the Shvaks, they showed the spinner of the left prop and it looks like there was the muzzle of a gun in the middle. But in some other scenes the Shvaks are clearly to see.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Master server maintenance today.....

 

I suppose it's probably a really bad idea to get our hopes up lol

[SR-F_Winger]

Master server maintenance today.....

 

I suppose it's probably a really bad idea to get our hopes up lol

maybe testing went VERY well? One can always hope!

[Asgar]

I keep hoping till the second i start the launcher and there is no patch :D but yeah, 9:30 to 12. sounds like enough time for a patch 

[LLv24_Zami]

No patch I'm afraid. They usually mention update in the announcement.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

You know what to do

 

[Finkeren]

I don't think it'll be today. It's been a long time since they last announced server down time for an update without actually mentioning, that it was an update.

[Asgar]

maybe Blacksix was in a hurry

[Matt]

It's not ready.

[Asgar]

soo...Thursday?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

[Asgar]

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Next Tuesday....confirmed 

 

 

Not

[[CPT]milopugdog]

[Asgar]

ok...you won the internet