FW 190

[DD_Arthur]

 

Sorry for the wall of text by the way.

 

Don't be; great post.  Also, very useful perspective by Eric Brown too.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

This topic is about tips to be more succesfull with the 190 NOT ABOUT FM. That is what Porkins asked for and that is what I and some other ppl gave, the rest including you are offtopic.

 

Saying the 190 in BOS is a great plane and can be very succesfull against all soviet types is no nonsense is just the truth and encourages Porkins to not give up trying.

 

The A3 in 1946 was quite different from the A4/A5.

 

I´m no fanboy of anything just an enthusiast, I love the FW is my favourite german plane in any wwii sim. I agree issues with the 190 tha needs to be fixed but its not the end of the world and don´t pork the plane. I´m sure those will be fixed in time.

I surely wasn't talking about the likes of you, or other people who gave helpful comments what the 190 (ingame) is good at.

I was talking about the kind of people who jump on anybody, who raises questions about a certain FM, denying his ability in (dog)fighting alà "just learn to fly the aircraft properly" or "anytime he got shot up by a Russian he claims the FM is wrong". Those accusations are wrong in 99% of the cases, and they are utterly ridiculous - nothing else then personal attacks, trying to drag serious topics off topic to distract from the problem, for what ever cause they have.  There are quite some people in these forums who behave like that. 

[URUAker]

I surely wasn't talking about the likes of you, or other people who gave helpful comments what the 190 (ingame) is good at.

I was talking about the kind of people who jump on anybody, who raises questions about a certain FM, denying his ability in (dog)fighting alà "just learn to fly the aircraft properly" or "anytime he got shot up by a Russian he claims the FM is wrong". Those accusations are wrong in 99% of the cases, and they are utterly ridiculous - nothing else then personal attacks, trying to drag serious topics off topic to distract from the problem, for what ever cause they have.  There are quite some people in these forums who behave like that. 

Ok   sorry if I misunderstood you.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Ok   sorry if I misunderstood you.

No worries. Get sometimes my intentions in here are not clear enough

[URUAker]

Unfortunately, tips and FM are often linked.

 

For example, in the case of our BoS Fw 190A-3, if i say "don't use vertical maneuvers above 1000m in winter unless you have a good energy advantage !", you will say me "why in winter ?", and i'll answer you with 2 charts:

 

 

 

 

This link cannot be denied...

Sorry but don´t agree.

I think its great and am thankfull that people like you are taking the time to point out the issues that need to be fixed so we can have an accurate historic representation of each type.

But the FW in BOS is what it is, with its wrongs and rights. And you can give advice about this particular representation of the aircraft without going in to a FM discussion. 

[PatrickAWlson]

My biggest question is was the uncontrolled snap roll really that viscous.  I am a horrible pilot and only take control rarely during testing to have a little fun.  Still, I have not had problems with any other plane.  The 190 I am guaranteed to crater within two minutes.  Until I do lose control and crater I do find the plane to be fun to fly sticking to the vertical.

 

This thread was worth reading if for no other reason than the suggestion to tone down pitch sensitivity.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

On a related note, did all of the Luftwaffe convert to the Fw-190 online? I've yet to see a 109 flying. Am I just a statistic anomaly?

[SCG_Tzigy]

last night lots of 190s...usually pretty good mix

 

i am having fun with my spaghetti plane...  

[Wulf]

interesting. wolf's 'eric brown' quote and ze_hairy's 'Heinz Lange' quotes seem to describe the general behavior of this plane (excepting the debated roll/climb). thx for the education, guys. I don't know if these are the final authority, but this game seems to emulate those descriptions. not sure how such a plane would come to be revered as the "butcher bird" as such, though.

.

I do recall the spit9 being said to be developed because of the 190, and was superior to the 190 (my readings). the spit 9 was fast and could climb high.

.

so, its like flying a missile with gyroscopic procession. the wings are more like guidance fins and you have to point-and-shoot the plane. pull too hard and that gyro will teach you a lesson.

 

 

I wouldn't read too much into the labeling of the 190 as the "Butcher Bird" if I were you.  As I recall (and I haven't looked into this for quite some years now so I may well have mixed this up over time) but I think it was Kurt Tank or maybe someone on his team who originally introduced the name "Shrike" as a nickname for the new fighter.  "Butcher Bird" is one of the English names for the Shrike, so in all probability it was just a corruption of the German nickname that the RAF later applied to the fighter after they first encountered it in combat in late '41.  It's also quite possible that the name  was just a post war invention and again, a corruption of the name Shrike.  

 

The Mk IX Spitfire was indeed introduced (as a fast and dirty solution) to counter the 190, which out-performed the Spit VB "in everything but turn", as they say.  The Mk IX was essentially just a Mk V airframe with a Merlin 61 bolted on the front.  It had originally been intended that the Mk V would be replaced by the Mk VIII but the MK VIII was still being developed at this point and so wasn't available for immediate introduction.

 

The Merlin 61 powered Spitfire (The original Mk IX) pretty much mirrored the performance of the 190 with the exception of turn, roll and high altitude performance (where the Spit was superior).

 

It's interesting to note that from an RAF (Fighter Command) perspective, it was the FW 190 that necessitated the introduction of a new stop-gap fighter in '42, not the Bf 109 F series that the RAF had been successfully countering since the closing stages of the BoB.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Wulf

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Not to mention the clipped-wing Spits that worsened turn but compensated on roll

[Wulf]

Not to mention the clipped-wing Spits that worsened turn but compensated on roll

 

 

Yes, the clipped wings were intended to improve the Spit's roll-rate, and they did, but even with clipped wings, the Spits of this period couldn't roll with a 190.

[Stig]

It's interesting to note that from an RAF (Fighter Command) perspective, it was the FW 190 that necessitated the introduction of a new stop-gap fighter in '42, not the Bf 109 F series that the RAF had been successfully countering since the closing stages of the BoB.

 

 

More like the RAF thought they were  successfully countering 109F series, mayhap? After all, the Luftwaffe didn't lose anywhere near as many aircraft as the RAF claimed on the Channel Front in '41. The Luftwaffe were more than holding their own even before the Anton made it's entrance on the scene.   

[Wulf]

More like the RAF thought they were  successfully countering 109F series, mayhap? After all, the Luftwaffe didn't lose anywhere near as many aircraft as the RAF claimed on the Channel Front in '41. The Luftwaffe were more than holding their own even before the Anton made it's entrance on the scene.   

 

That's an interesting assertion, however, the fact remains that the Spitfire IX was introduced to counter the 190, not the 109.

[Dakpilot]

Well it was used to counter the FW-190 but the MkVIII was in developement  to counter all Luftwaffe/Axis A/C before the FW-190 rudely arrived onto the scene

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Wulf]

Well it was used to counter the FW-190 but the MkVIII was in developement  to counter all Luftwaffe/Axis A/C before the FW-190 rudely arrived onto the scene

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

 

 No, you're quite wrong. The Mk IX was developed specifically to counter the 190.  

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It was a direct reaction to the operational realities implemented by the Fw-190, and a result of crude 'old airframe plus new engine' experimentation by Rolls-Royce - comparable to the field trials that transformed the LaGG-3 from a decent fighter that was just too underpowered into the very capable La-5. Perhaps it wasn't a 'let's match the Fw-190' moment, but by all means the challenges the RAF was facing then were mainly traced down to the Fw-190's appearance against an air force that had accommodated at countering the Bf-109.

[Wulf]

It was a direct reaction to the operational realities implemented by the Fw-190, and a result of crude 'old airframe plus new engine' experimentation by Rolls-Royce - comparable to the field trials that transformed the LaGG-3 from a decent fighter that was just too underpowered into the very capable La-5. Perhaps it wasn't a 'let's match the Fw-190' moment, but by all means the challenges the RAF was facing then were mainly traced down to the Fw-190's appearance against an air force that had accommodated at countering the Bf-109.

 

 

You're right; they weren't attempting a "let's match the Fw-190 moment", at all.  They were hoping to blow the thing clear into the weeds.  But as things turned out, the best they could do was to roughly match it's performance at the altitudes where the 190 did its thing, that is to say, below 6 K. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

I think more accurately we would have to say that the Merlin 66 version or Spitfire LF.IXc (also listed as IX-B on old pilot log books before officialdom caught up) was the direct reaction to the FW190. That model being tuned specifically to exceed the FW190's top speed at all operational altitudes based on the captured example that they were testing. The Merlin 61 variant of the Spitfire IX, on a speed chart, goes back and forth with the FW190 sometimes being faster and sometimes being slower.

 

In the case of the IX model... Just good enough ended up being right on the money. The VIII model had a few advantages but if you look at the layout of Spitfire squadrons on D-Day... the majority are Spitfire V and Spitfire IX models (with a few VIII, PR models, etc.).

 

Anyways... All massively off topic.

 

What's curious is the East Front experience vs the West Front experience. I've read a lot about it. The Bf109 was considered by the Russians to be the best Luftwaffe fighter whereas in the West its the FW190 that has the greater reputation. I'm sure there are a variety of reasons for that but I wonder if the Bf109 being at more major battles (Stalingrad was a Bf109 affair after all) and the FW190 arriving on the scene as fighter and then fairly quickly thereafter as a Jabo and ultimately seeing a lot of Stuka squadrons being replaced with ground-attack FW190 variants influenced the viewpoint of the Russian fighter pilots.

[Ace_Pilto]

Well it was used to counter the FW-190 but the MkVIII was in developement  to counter all Luftwaffe/Axis A/C before the FW-190 rudely arrived onto the scene

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

The Mk VIII required a re-design of the airframe, it's considerably smaller than other Mk's IIRC. The IX was a stop gap using a more powerful engine on the Mk V airframe specifically to counter the 190 as Wulf says.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

I think more accurately we would have to say that the Merlin 66 version or Spitfire LF.IXc (also listed as IX-B on old pilot log books before officialdom caught up) was the direct reaction to the FW190. That model being tuned specifically to exceed the FW190's top speed at all operational altitudes based on the captured example that they were testing. The Merlin 61 variant of the Spitfire IX, on a speed chart, goes back and forth with the FW190 sometimes being faster and sometimes being slower.

 

In the case of the IX model... Just good enough ended up being right on the money. The VIII model had a few advantages but if you look at the layout of Spitfire squadrons on D-Day... the majority are Spitfire V and Spitfire IX models (with a few VIII, PR models, etc.).

 

Anyways... All massively off topic.

 

What's curious is the East Front experience vs the West Front experience. I've read a lot about it. The Bf109 was considered by the Russians to be the best Luftwaffe fighter whereas in the West its the FW190 that has the greater reputation. I'm sure there are a variety of reasons for that but I wonder if the Bf109 being at more major battles (Stalingrad was a Bf109 affair after all) and the FW190 arriving on the scene as fighter and then fairly quickly thereafter as a Jabo and ultimately seeing a lot of Stuka squadrons being replaced with ground-attack FW190 variants influenced the viewpoint of the Russian fighter pilots.

 

That's because the majority of Focke Wulfs on the East, especially from 1943 onwards, were the Jabo (F and G) variants.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Fw 190A saw service as fighter role in East front only during 1 year, late-42 to late-43, where they had to go back to West front (guess why), and they have reached a peak of ~195 planes, that was during Kursk battle.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Ze_Hairy

[Stig]

I make no claims to being an expert on the subject, but the only unit that i know for sure that the Anton saw action with in '41 was II/JG26, entering service with them in August. I & III/ JG26 may have converted to the Anton late '41 but probably too late to make any real difference even if they did. JG2 didn't convert to FW190A's until April-May 1942.  So throughout '41 the RAF were fighting mostly 109's, therefore I assert that the Luftwaffe were successfully countering the RAF with the F series.

 

However, the RAF were accustomed to 109, but when the 190 appeared it was a nasty surprise, which adds to the awe that it inspired, on top of it's remarkable performance.

[Sunde]

I make no claims to being an expert on the subject, but the only unit that i know for sure that the Anton saw action with in '41 was II/JG26, entering service with them in August. I & III/ JG26 may have converted to the Anton late '41 but probably too late to make any real difference even if they did. JG2 didn't convert to FW190A's until April-May 1942.  So throughout '41 the RAF were fighting mostly 109's, therefore I assert that the Luftwaffe were successfully countering the RAF with the F series.

 

However, the RAF were accustomed to 109, but when the 190 appeared it was a nasty surprise, which adds to the awe that it inspired, on top of it's remarkable performance.

I certainly am no expert either, but i am confused as to why the Luftwaffe ever wanted the 190, like ever... If it performed IRL as in game, it was practically inferior to the 109 in every aspect... ?

I mean it could have been introduced as a fighter bomber i guess, but it wasn't.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Firepower, durability, dive speed, level speed, particularly in medium to low altitudes, good roll and turn characteristics, beginner-friendly and also less accident-prone than the 109.

 

It was fast and deadly, in short

[Dakpilot]

 No, you're quite wrong. The Mk IX was developed specifically to counter the 190.  

 

Okay perhaps I should have been more specific (generalising is never a good idea), the Merlin 60 engine engine in the Mk IX was not designed to counter the FW- 190 and that was really the only difference to the MkVc

 

What I meant was they cobbled together available tech and used it as a measure against the FW-190

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Firepower, durability, dive speed, level speed, particularly in medium to low altitudes, good roll and turn characteristics, beginner-friendly and also less accident-prone than the 109.

 

It was fast and deadly, in short

Climb rate was also pretty good. With 1.42ata, which was normal combat rating for A4/5, that thing outclimbed most contemporary planes (apart from 109 and Mk9).With 1.65ata (10 min rating) it surpassed the 109G6. Supreme vertical manouvers possible, comparable to the Hellcat (Hammerhead and co). You could roll and dive away from any enemy opposition..this aircraft was superb in pretty much any department - only lacking sustained turning capabilities. Apart from that pretty much no weekness, disregarding the fact that it was pretty bad above 7km 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Good overview, Manu

 

Faced with this opposition, I see no other choice for the VVS - the trick is to fly at 6000m and up with the MiG-3, and take up some P-39s down low. 37mm cannons are known for evening out aircraft performance

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Good overview, Manu

 

Faced with this opposition, I see no other choice for the VVS - the trick is to fly at 6000m and up with the MiG-3, and take up some P-39s down low. 37mm cannons are known for evening out aircraft performance

I dunno, ya still gotta bring that gun to bear!

[PatrickAWlson]

Good overview, Manu

 

Faced with this opposition, I see no other choice for the VVS - the trick is to fly at 6000m and up with the MiG-3, and take up some P-39s down low. 37mm cannons are known for evening out aircraft performance

 

I always thought that the 37mm was a failure.  Low ammo  count, low muzzle velocity, tendency to jam.  Sure, if you could actually hit something with it you could ruin the other guy's day, but my reading always indicated that American pilots, at least, hated the thing.  Maybe the Russians got better results.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Americans did hate it (like they hated the P-39 as a whole whenever they had to take it to the front) but one forgets that so long as you put the gun on the nose the Soviet pilot will hit you with it. The LaGG-3 and Yak-9 with 37mm cannons were successful and show how much the Soviet Air Force and Navy enjoyed the concept ever since 1941. Plus, on the field they found the 37mm gun much more reliable and less jam-prone than the Hispanos some of the first models came with.

 

In 16 GIAP Pokryshkin got his Eskadrilya to remove the 7.62mm wing guns and have the nose .50s and the 37mm wired to fire from the same trigger since he noticed the 37mm trigger required too much force to press and thus screwed up aiming. Not sure how other 216 IAD regiments followed the recommendation, but 16 GIAP adopted it. That way within standard guns range before the drop interfered with the gunnery too much, a proper shot would deliver at least one 37mm round plus a hail of .50s.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Lucas_From_Hell

[GP*]

It was a direct reaction to the operational realities implemented by the Fw-190, and a result of crude 'old airframe plus new engine' experimentation by Rolls-Royce - comparable to the field trials that transformed the LaGG-3 from a decent fighter that was just too underpowered into the very capable La-5. Perhaps it wasn't a 'let's match the Fw-190' moment, but by all means the challenges the RAF was facing then were mainly traced down to the Fw-190's appearance against an air force that had accommodated at countering the Bf-109.

 

 

Stop trying to split hairs with history just to act as some sort of mediator between Dakpilot (wrong) and Wulf (correct). 

 

The Mk IX was introduced to counter the 190. It's as simple as that.

[SYN_Ricky]

Fw 190A saw service as fighter role in East front only during 1 year, late-42 to late-43, where they had to go back to West front (guess why), and they have reached a peak of ~195 planes, that was during Kursk battle.

After Kursk JG 51, minus the Stabstaffel, progressively reverted to the 190, but JG 54 kept their FW-190 as fighters (apart for III Gruppe who went back west) until the end. But it's true that after Kursk, most 190s in the East were jabos.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

And until the end this was a major nuisance - a diary entry from 32 GIAP pilots mentioned how much trouble they were getting into because the Fw-190s would sneak in with small groups of aircraft at treetop height, drop their load and go back with the throttle slammed open. By the time the Soviet fighters arrived at the sector under attack the 190s were long gone and nearly impossible to catch up with. This was in 1945, flying La-7s.

[ShamrockOneFive]

That's because the majority of Focke Wulfs on the East, especially from 1943 onwards, were the Jabo (F and G) variants.

 

That's what I mean. Soviet pilots fighting those types wouldn't see the FW190 in the same light as their Western counterparts.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It's not that simple though, even reports from summer 1943 mentioned the Fw-190 in a less favourable light than the Bf-109. That old tactical manual Luthier uploaded back in the day is cautious to note that since it started operating over the Soviet Union recently, the Fw-190 pilots have not properly developed tactics to use it properly in the Eastern Front environment, citing as an example the classic roll inverted and dive away evasive the 190 used regularly in the West to zip away from Spitfires while in the East altitudes were less spacious, and Soviet pilots were instructed to wait for that moment to come then rip out a burst against the belly.

 

Also, I think the climb rates make a big difference. Just fighting an enemy that doesn't have such a substantial ability to zoom way up out of your reach (or at least has it less than the 109) surely must have given them a boost of confidence.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Wulf]

It's not that simple though, even reports from summer 1943 mentioned the Fw-190 in a less favourable light than the Bf-109. That old tactical manual Luthier uploaded back in the day is cautious to note that since it started operating over the Soviet Union recently, the Fw-190 pilots have not properly developed tactics to use it properly in the Eastern Front environment, citing as an example the classic roll inverted and dive away evasive the 190 used regularly in the West to zip away from Spitfires while in the East altitudes were less spacious, and Soviet pilots were instructed to wait for that moment to come then rip out a burst against the belly.

 

Also, I think the climb rates make a big difference. Just fighting an enemy that doesn't have such a substantial ability to zoom way up out of your reach (or at least has it less than the 109) surely must have given them a boost of confidence.

 

 

I don't get it.  Presumably you (the attacking pilot) must be at least co-alt with the 190 and either within or close to gun range and closing, otherwise, why would the 190 pilot elect to go inverted (and sacrifice all his altitude).  So from this advantageous position you then wait for him to roll inverted and commence a power dive.  At this point you "rip out a burst against the belly"  which presumably will be fast disappearing under the nose of your aircraft - if it's still visible at all.  

 

So why wait for him to commence a split S?  Why wouldn't you just try and get him before he goes evasive?

 

Without knowing the context in which this advice was offered, it kind of sounds like the sort of nonsensical 'bs' that might be dolled-out to dispirited pilots when actually, you have no answers for them at all.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Wulf

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I can find the manual later and post the bit here for reference. I presume the context is that when and if faced with the split-S evasive, one should dip their nose and open fire it as soon as they notice the Fw-190 starting to roll as to prevent it from getting away.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Here is the whole of it, scroll a bit for the Fw-190: http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsIII.htm

 

All in all the report is clearly optimist and Suvorovian in the sense that it aims to inspire the younger pilots still in training to give them a shot in the arm and make them fearless, so many of the performance notes are outlandish. That being said, the authors are much more respectful of the Bf-109, and it shows how the Fw-190 was clearly underestimated by all means.

[Wulf]

Here is the whole of it, scroll a bit for the Fw-190: http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsIII.htm

 

All in all the report is clearly optimist and Suvorovian in the sense that it aims to inspire the younger pilots still in training to give them a shot in the arm and make them fearless, so many of the performance notes are outlandish. That being said, the authors are much more respectful of the Bf-109, and it shows how the Fw-190 was clearly underestimated by all means.

 

 

Okay, from what I've read they seem to be saying that 'if' you can catch a fleeing 190 at the point where the pilot rolls inverted, the pilot and the under-seat fuel tanks are are at there most vulnerable - which is probably true.  They do, however, acknowledge that this is easier said than done. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Misquote on my part indeed, my bad

 

In general for people trucking around in Soviet aircraft that manual gives some really good directions, and emphasises every 2 lines that only idiots get into constant turning contests - a vice that online 'Red' pilots still haven't gotten rid of 75 years later.