Ju-88 Discussion/Tips-and-tricks

[Gunsmith86]

Well there are many weapons that could be used buy the planes we now have in BoS and BoM it would be a good idea if they made some sort of weapons pack that could be bought if you have BoM or BoS. In the weapons pack should be bombs, guns, smokebombs, other equipment that didn´t make it into the normal game realeas version of planes.

 

( goal should be that there are weapons for many diffrent planes in the weapon pack so there would be something for every player in it. )

Fore example:

weapon pack for german planes:

 

dropable supply container ( could be used to supply troops that are encircled as a mission objective or to to supply human players with tanks with ammunition if the tanks drives next to a droped container he gets a view rounds of ammunition and the container disappears from the map. The container would also disappear after some time if nobody comes to use it. )

 

paper whistle on all standard bombs ( SC 50, SC 250,...) these replased the sirens on the Ju 87 Stuka and could be used with all planes. ( No special effect appart from terrifying some tank players when they are bombed )

 

Smoke bomb that creats a large smokescreen ( was build in 50 Kg version and 250 kg version used from the beginning of the war ) Could be used to hide troops from enamy fire or blinding flak from fireing accurate for some time.

 

alternative: These started to complement the somke bombs ( sometime in 1942 )

 

drop container with 16x NB2 ( small smoke containers) If droped the main container opens in flight, the 16 NB2 are set free and armed they get scattered in a area of about 50m x 50m and start to build a smokescreen of 50m width 250m long and up to 20m height. The smokescreen stays for about 5 min.

 

 

 

Hand droped smoke signals with fixed meaning. ( these were carried inside the cockpit and after pulling a sort of safety pin they are droped out of the windo or any other opening while flying low. After a short time the somke is realeased. Violet smoke is a warning for friendly forces that enamy tanks are near! Red smoke is a warning for " be careful there is a enamy defensive position!" ) There are more such signals but they had no fixed meaning and could be used for anything lokal troops agreed on.

 

 

incendiary bombs and containers

 

The B1E and B1,3E is a small incendiary bomb which was droped in large numbers from containers ( it could burn down buildings, trucks, tents and other small things like that)

 

The BSB 700 and BSB 1000 was a reusable container for the small incendiary bombs. It could be carried by the Ju 88 and He 111. Instead of droping the container when pressing the bomb realease button a door on the underside opens which enable the insendiary bombs to fall out. The Container is divided into several such compartments. If the first one is empty the next one opens as long as the pilot does press the button for bomb realease. If the pilot stops to press the button the open compartment is emptyed and no new compartment is opened until the pilot does press the button again. There are three diffrent sizes of these containers the smallest one BSB 360 with 360 bombs inside ( 435kg all together used with the BSB 700 from January 1941 ), BSB 700 with 700 bombs inside ( 905kg all together ), BSB 1000 with 600 bombs and 1000kg (replaced the BSB 700 in july 1942)

 

 

Bomb used against railroads. Its a standart SC 250 or SC 50 Bomb fitted with a time fuse and a second fuse that explodes the bomb when a train is near through the vibration of the train. On the nose of the bomb is a spike fixed which penetrades the ground ( at best right next to the railes) so that the bomb is stuck upside down with the hole body above ground. The impact on the ground activates the two fuses and makes it very hard to remove the bomb without exploding it because light vibrations can exploded the bomb. British enginiers mostly exploded the bombs when found on time and replaced the damged rails afterwards even when that meant that the line couldn´t be used for a full day! If no train comes and a time from max. 72 hours is gone the time fuse explodes and destroyes the bomb and everyting near to it.

 

 

SD2 bombs drop containers and devises: (late1940-1945)

 

The SD 2 is a small 2kg fragmentation bomb also known as butterfly bomb it was one of the most used small  bombs and highly effective in destroying ( troop concentrations, all sorts of unarmored vehicles, guns, planes ( On the first day of Operation Barbarosser more than 800 planes fell victim to SD2 bombs on ground. With these it is most likely the most sucessfull weapon of the first day of Operation Barbarossa ), tents and many more such things. 

After the war it was copied in the USA and used for a long time. While the SD2 was a german development after bad expirences with normal SD 10 bombs which flew all over the place and there by often missed the targets they should destroy. The SD 2 get stuck to the targets with its small wings which let them explode were they were most effective.  Russia developed also a small bomb (1,5kg if i am not wrong ) for the same purpose which was copied by the germans later in the war ( german one called SD1 1kg  late 1943-1945).

 

At the beginning the SD 2 was droped from the devices in the picture below: For JU 88 ( the Ju 88 had 360 SD2 bombs in the bomb bays. 90 bombs in each device.) and Do 17 (later some Do 217 could also carry these device)

 

For the Ju 87 Stuka and the ME 110 E there were also devices to use the SD 2.

 

All the devices above had one problem, To get the SD 2 to explode near the ground or on ground they had to fly at a maximum hight of 25m above ground and not lower than 15m otherewise the SD 2 would be armed and explode to high above ground to do any damage or if realeased to low they would not be armed and not explode at all. These extrem low level attacks made the planes vulnerable to all sorts of rifle fire which was the main reason for loses and some units useing them had after three days more than half of there planes in the workshop for repairs made by rifle fire but by then they had done more than enough deamge to the Russian troops to be worth the losses. Early in 1942 new drop containers replaced the older devices. These containers could first be droped from up to 1500m and latter in the war up to 6000m ( mid. 1943).

 

The containers looked nearly like a normal bomb could be carried like a SC 50, 250 or 500 kg bomb and they were latter filled up with a very large amount of diffrent kinds of small bombs, smoke bombs, marker bombs,...

They were first few were called AB 23 ( Abwurfbehälter für 23 SD2 bomben = drop container for 23 SD2 bombs wight 50kg could only be carried outside the bomb bay )

They were quickly improved with the AB 50 and AB 70 ( 50 was for the wight of the filled container 50kg / 70kg ) AB 250 (250kg) and AB 500 (500kg)

AB 250 on Ju 87

 

AB 500:

 

and for use with incendiary bombs the AB 1000 ( 1000kg )

 

One more useful device would be the so called "Rauchgeräte" ( which is the cover name for rockets used with JU 88 and HE 111 to start with large bomb loads or when the runway was short)

 

For most of these things are counterparts on the Russian side which could be used for a Russian weapons pack. Since many of these things are useable on a large number of planes in game or on planes that are added in the future interesed in these weapon packs would be high also in the future. None of them can destroye gameplay because they all have some weaknesses that other players could use to there advantage. Since targets on the map could also be destroyed with the weapons everyone gets with the planes, players without them would not be at a disadvantage. The mission maker should however be able to disable the weapons that does not fit into the timeframe of his mission.

 

hope my english is not to bad.

 

below some more like  mines (used on land and in the water ), light bombs for night missions,...

Edited February 16, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[xvii-Dietrich]

@Gunsmith86 ... wow! Brilliant post. Very informative with lots of interesting ideas. I had no idea half of that stuff even existed. Thanks!!

[Gunsmith86]

Thanks

 

Well i belief we could make another one as long as this and we wouldn´t even tuch the more exotic things.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has been asked and answered. 

 

Will the Ju-88 have an auto-pullout when dive bombing?

Edited February 16, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Stick-95

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has been asked and answered. 

 

Will the Ju-88 have an auto-pullout when dive bombing?

 

 

Given that the Stuka does not, I doubt it.

 

 

On the topic of additional weapons unlocks, phosphorous canisters on the IL-2 for melting tanks would be pretty sweet.

[LukeFF]

For what it's worth, I just had a look at the Ju 88 A-4 machine gun armament manual dated September 1941, to see what sort of weapon configurations are discussed. The only alternate configuration discussed is the side-mounted MG 15s. So, it may very well be the case that the team is going for what was most relevant during the Battle of Moscow. Not to mention that adding such alternate weapon configurations means more time for coding, 3D modeling, and animation work. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by LukeFF

[LukeFF]

It won't be much of a Schnellbomber either if it's not getting the Jumo 211J with Ladeluftkühler (sry, don't know how to translate that). That would make it reach a nice topspeed of 475km/h at ~3000m, otherwise it's going to be well slower than the Pe-2 and Bf-110. As I assume it getting the Jumo 211F instead I don't expect it to be impressive. Yes, faster than a Heinkel, but overall still slow, sluggish and difficult to fly with full payload.

 

Well, the July 1941 manual for the A-4 covers the 211 J in detail (it doesn't even mention the 211 F), so I think it's likely the one in the game will have the same engine.  

Edited February 17, 2016 by LukeFF

[Asgar]

Looks like Asgar is correct, the Ju88 A-4 could be fitted with ECT 50 wing mounts containing 4 bombs on each external bomb attachment (makes 16 in total)

 

The downside of this is though that all 4 ETCs were triggered simultaneously, means you will always have to drop 4 bombs at once.

 

For more detail see the Ju-88 Bedienungs- und Beladevorschrift für die Abwurfwaffe ETC50 posted above.

too come back to this, the upside is you can get rid off the ETC 50 bomb racks and reduce drag on your way home

Edited February 21, 2016 by I./JG3_Asgar

[6./ZG26_Custard]

For anyone interested in the 88 I would recommend volume 1 and 2 of this:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Junkers-Ju88-Schnellbomber-Multi-Mission-Warplane/dp/1906537429/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1455730281&sr=1-2&keywords=ju88

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Junkers-Ju88-Volume-William-Metcalf/dp/1906537437/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Y1RH6X9PK57A8PCENJZ

[Yogiflight]

Asgar, I`m not sure, that this will work in game. Can you get rid of the 50kg bomb racks when flying the 190 or the110, because I think they use the same racks?

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

Asgar, I`m not sure, that this will work in game. Can you get rid of the 50kg bomb racks when flying the 190 or the110, because I think they use the same racks?

No you cant

[Asgar]

Well, the July 1941 manual for the A-4 covers the 211 J in detail (it doesn't even mention the 211 F), so I think it's likely the one in the game will have the same engine.  

plus, the 211J is used in the 87 D series. so it should already be modeled in game

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Ok so now I guess that with the DD123 we also know exactly what we are getting.

I'm also a bit disapointed about the lack of the forward MG/FF but Han made it clear quite some time ago than as it required removing the gunsight and other stuffs, this was out of the list.

Despite this, I can't wait to fly the bird. 

 

 

 

Notable is the lack of SD bombs (i.e. armour-piercing). I also hope that MG upgrades, photo-recon cameras and extra fuel-tanks will also be options.

 

 

Small question to the experts : I've also read that SD are armor piercing bombs, but there are also documents about german weaponry that states that SD bombs are high blast effect bombs and not armor piercing. Could anybody clarify this for me (I don't read german so maybe the most relevant documents are out of my reach)

 

 

nah, don't think so. Han denied it when i asked him a couple weeks ago. he said the Ju-88 will get only Revi

 

On this subject, I have a lot of trouble to get even the most basic infos on the Stuvi and absolutely no mention about when it was introduced on dive bombers.

The old IL2 features this on the Ju87 D5 and not the D3 so I was thinking that, providing this was a sourced decision, the Stuvi might have been introduced in 1943 or maybe late 42.

 

Again just guessing.

 

 

For anyone interested in the 88 I would recommend volume 1 and 2 of this:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Junkers-Ju88-Schnellbomber-Multi-Mission-Warplane/dp/1906537429/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1455730281&sr=1-2&keywords=ju88

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Junkers-Ju88-Volume-William-Metcalf/dp/1906537437/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Y1RH6X9PK57A8PCENJZ

 

Excellent read indeed, I have the first book and will definitely order the second one soon. A must have.

I also have the Ju87, He111 and Fw190 in this serie and I can't recommend them enough.

 

Be warned that once these get out of stock in most major selling places, the price on second hands rises incredibly quickly. I've struggled 2 month to get the first book of the 190 series at less than 80€, most of them being in the 250-350€ range 

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

Hopefully we will get the 88 this week

[Dutchvdm]

That would be nice, but i'm putting my money on next week. That's still begin of March.

 

Grt M

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Looking forward to see how it will impact the online dynamics

 

...and I mustn't lie, I am looking forward to everyone giving it a go and the wave of big fat bombers coming in down low without escorts for a couple of weeks. Does that make me a bad person?

Edited February 29, 2016 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Yogiflight]

Hi Gruber, I think you might have read it in the "message for german pilots only" thread in a post of Gunsmith. The SD-bombs are fragmentation bombs for weak targets as trucks or artillery, the armor-piercing bombs were the PC-bombs.

In the old IL2 the SD-bombs were used as armor-piercing weapons.

In the old IL2 BTW, the STUVI was used in the JU88 A4, I had a lot of fun divebombing with at dive angles of 50-60°.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Looking forward to see how it will impact the online dynamics

 

...and I mustn't lie, I am looking forward to everyone giving it a go and the wave of big fat bombers coming in down low without escorts for a couple of weeks. Does that make me a bad person?

 

That would make me a bad person as well 

 

 

Hi Gruber, I think you might have read it in the "message for german pilots only" thread in a post of Gunsmith. The SD-bombs are fragmentation bombs for weak targets as trucks or artillery, the armor-piercing bombs were the PC-bombs.

In the old IL2 the SD-bombs were used as armor-piercing weapons.

In the old IL2 BTW, the STUVI was used in the JU88 A4, I had a lot of fun divebombing with at dive angles of 50-60°.

 

OK thanks for clarifying the SD bomb stuff 

 

For the Stuvi, the A4 variant was still in production until mid 1944. This is why I mentioned the Ju87 as an example because it is well possible that we had a late production Ju88-A4 in the game.

But yeah, great sight and very accurate too, though I usually go with an 80° dive in the game, because... why not ?    

[SYN_Ricky]

This is the plane I'm waiting for the most, always loved it since Luca's "Their Finest Hour" on the Amiga. I was lucky to meet a couple of times a former Finnish bomber pilot who flew Blenheims and then JU-88s. He liked the Blenheim, but he said that he loved the Junkers, he felt that it was a true combat plane and much more capable than the Blenheim.

[Jason_Williams]

Hopefully we will get the 88 this week

 

No it's not in beta yet so not this week.

 

Jason

[F/JG300_Gruber]

It must have been nice to be able to discuss with people like that. 

 

Eric Brown also had a very high opinion about the 88 : "There was a number of very good German aircraft but, with the exception of the Fw190, none arouse my profound admiration as did the Junkers 'eighty-eight' "

 

 

@Lucas pretty sure you have the same kind of picture than me in your head

 

 

and 6 lines of 44 50kg bombs obliterating the enemy airfield in it's whole length 

Edited February 29, 2016 by F/JG300_Gruber

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I do Gruber, but in my end of the screen I see it like this

 

 

Jokes aside, constant waves of bombers make everything more interesting, and I'm pretty sure the VVS is going to have a headache dealing with it.

[Gunsmith86]

 

 

Small question to the experts : I've also read that SD are armor piercing bombs, but there are also documents about german weaponry that states that SD bombs are high blast effect bombs and not armor piercing. Could anybody clarify this for me (I don't read german so maybe the most relevant documents are out of my reach)

 

The German SD 50 is no anti-tank bomb and also not very good at armour-piercing. The SD bombs are fragmentation bombs which creat a lot of fragments to be able to do that they have a thicker bomb case than the normal SC bombs which have more explosive inside. Since the effect that takes out the tank when no direct hit is accomplished is the pressure of the explosion which takes out the crew or kills them the SC bombs are better suited against tanks. The armour-piercing bombs called PC are designed to pentraded the armour of ships and bunkers and have to be droped from hights of 4000m - 7000m to develop enough speed when falling to be able to pirce thick armour or concrete. The smallest of the is a 500kg bomb which makes them useless against tanks.

the SD bombs are best used against cars, trucks, gun-positions and other equipment which has no armour or just very weak armour.

 

There is one SD bomb that is used for armour-piercing it the so called SD 4 HL it is a small 4kg bomb which consists of two parts the part for the armour-piercing is the "HL" = Hohlladung in german / in english hollow charge this part is in the nose of the bomb and is able to pierce 60mm at 60° ( in short it does the armour-piering). The SD part of the bomb is against troops on or around the tank. SD is german for "Sprengbombe Dickwandig"  which means "fragmentation bomb" its a bomb with thicker bomb case to creat as mutch fragments as possible.

[Asgar]

On this subject, I have a lot of trouble to get even the most basic infos on the Stuvi and absolutely no mention about when it was introduced on dive bombers.

The old IL2 features this on the Ju87 D5 and not the D3 so I was thinking that, providing this was a sourced decision, the Stuvi might have been introduced in 1943 or maybe late 42.

 

the D-3 in game has 37mm cannons, which were introduced in 1943 as well. so yeah

[6./ZG26_Emil]

No it's not in beta yet so not this week.

 

Jason

 

[Gunsmith86]

 

 

On this subject, I have a lot of trouble to get even the most basic infos on the Stuvi and absolutely no mention about when it was introduced on dive bombers. The old IL2 features this on the Ju87 D5 and not the D3 so I was thinking that, providing this was a sourced decision, the Stuvi might have been introduced in 1943 or maybe late 42.

 

As far as i know the Stuvi was first used in 1941 before Operation Barbarossa started PW. Stahl wrote in his book about there first attacks on Ships with the new Stuvi. The manual of the Ju 88 A4 from September 1941 describe the installation of the Stuvi in detail.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Many thanks Gunsmith 

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

No it's not in beta yet so not this week.

 

Jason

Y u do dis 

 

Oh well... We will get it eventually. Keep up the good work devs! 

Edited February 29, 2016 by 6./ZG26_McKvack

[Asgar]

As far as i know the Stuvi was first used in 1941 before Operation Barbarossa started PW. Stahl wrote in his book about there first attacks on Ships with the new Stuvi. The manual of the Ju 88 A4 from September 1941 describe the installation of the Stuvi in detail.

well...i'd say that makes it even worse...seems like the devs don't want to invest too much work in the new planes anymore. no MG 131, no 20mm no Stuvi...nothing. and the Ju-88 needs the stuvi for effective dive bombing since it can't bomb at 90° dive. i think the maximum allowed angle is 55-60°?

 

20. False claims on future or past decisions and plans of the developers, which are not backed by hyperlinks or other facts are prohibited.

Strict warning

 

edit: all these statements were made by Han in the Q&A thread

 

 

 

I./JG3_Asgar, on 16 Nov 2015 - 17:48, said:

I couldn't find the question before. The Ju88 A-4 was capable of dive bombing. Will it have a working Stuvi when introduced?

 

It is capable for dive bombing. Sight will be REVI (was installed on A-4 not rarely than STUVI)

 

KG62_Gielow, on 17 Nov 2015 - 04:51, said:

Are we going to have a fixed foward firing 20mm cannon on Ju88??

 

No, this plane have no such weapon mode.

 

 

6./ZG26_Gielow, on 21 Nov 2015 - 15:52, said:

Now you have seen that was a conversion  kit for a fixed foward firing 20mm cannon with 90 rounds on Ju88 A4. 

 

Are you guys considering it for the game ??? It would be great for train hunting missions, low level bombing where the bombsight is not necessary and ship strike missions when we have maps with sea and freighters.

 

No, we don't plan to do it because it requires to remove bombsight in this case.

 

I got 2 questions about the Bf-110 and Ju-88.

 

What kind of rear gunner armament will they have? Will we see the rear double station mg-15 and Mg-131 for the Ju-88?

110: single MG15 for rear gunner

 

88:

single MG81 ahead

pair of MG81 for upper-rear

twin MG81Z for lower-rear

 

is this better? 

Edited March 1, 2016 by I./JG3_Asgar

[LukeFF]

 

 

seems like the devs don't want to invest too much work in the new planes anymore

 

Please, just stop it already with nonsense statements like this.

[Asgar]

yeah..nonsense...whatever, as if i would give anything about what you say

Edited February 29, 2016 by I./JG3_Asgar

[Gunsmith86]

well...i'd say that makes it even worse...seems like the devs don't want to invest too much work in the new planes anymore. no MG 131, no 20mm no Stuvi...nothing. and the Ju-88 needs the stuvi for effective dive bombing since it can't bomb at 90° dive. i think the maximum allowed angle is 55-60°?

 

No its not unrealistik to assume that a lot of Ju 88 A4 didn´t have the Stuvi because if it would have been standart there would have been no need for a manual that describes the installation of the Stuvi in the Ju 88 A4.

 

And maybe the idea of weapons packs that i put into the suggestions threat will bring us such equipment one day in the future.

[LukeFF]

yeah..nonsense...whatever, as if i would give anything about what you say

 

Do I need to remind you what happened to MK_Turbo when he made similar statements? So yes, knock it off already. The plane isn't even out yet, and you're already panning it. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Lacking a non-standard gun sight will hardly ruin the experience, you'll learn by eye soon enough. I'm positive it'll come along in Battle of Kuban, together with some neat torpedoes.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Just something to keep us occupied while we wait.

 

https://youtu.be/56RhTpawi7E

[Lusekofte]

My concern is, taken the lack of historical manpower and machines. The Luftwaffe sitting on all the ace planes both in fighters and bombers. With the load out of the Heinkel , Junker 87 and 110 and now the JU 88 there is little to none to counter it with. Historically a IL 4 / DB 3 /SB 2 the latter not very much help, but great fun.

I can even the servers permitting take out two targets with 1 bomb load of a Heinkel. It is not unusual to get over 100 targets in one drop from a Heinkel, and almost the same with a JU 87.

While you might get if lucky 1/5 of that in a PE 2.

The JU 88 , honestly make a Russian level bomber very important. If not well you wont see many bombers on Russian side

Edited February 29, 2016 by EG14_LuseKofte

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The Il-4 and the SB didn't pack that much of a bomb load though. The SB couldn't even take 1000kg of bombs if I remember it right (though it is great fun in the old Il-2), while the Il-4 normally only carried 1000kg of bombs, with an absolute maximum of 2500kg (2 x FAB-1000, 1 x FAB-500, all on the fuselage) that made the aircraft decidedly terrible to fly, slow and rough on the commands, plus its defensive armament is relatively weak for a big bomber.

 

I am for servers curbing the uber bombs unless needed. That being said most of these problems can be solved by having at least one person flying point defense on a target though, yesterday I spent nearly 1h mostly covering the ships on high-low patterns and nobody came near them except for one 109, which I properly jumped and the pilot disengaged when I took the upper hand. As damaging as these bombs are all it takes is one fighter to make the carriers from Luftwaffe to Feuerzeug, mostly because the He-111, Ju-88 and Ju-87 burn neatly when attacked from above.

 

Hopefully we will see an Il-4 or A-20 on the next expansion though, both are amazing aircraft that deserve their place here.

[ShamrockOneFive]

My concern is, taken the lack of historical manpower and machines. The Luftwaffe sitting on all the ace planes both in fighters and bombers. With the load out of the Heinkel , Junker 87 and 110 and now the JU 88 there is little to none to counter it with. Historically a IL 4 / DB 3 /SB 2 the latter not very much help, but great fun.

I can even the servers permitting take out two targets with 1 bomb load of a Heinkel. It is not unusual to get over 100 targets in one drop from a Heinkel, and almost the same with a JU 87.

While you might get if lucky 1/5 of that in a PE 2.

The JU 88 , honestly make a Russian level bomber very important. If not well you wont see many bombers on Russian side

 

Why are you getting 1/5th in the Pe-2? From my point of view the Pe-2 is a pretty ideal weapon to have. It's faster than any of the German bomber aircraft, it still has decent rear hemisphere defensive armament, and it can haul a pair of FAB-500s or four FAB-250s. And just like the Ju88 it can dive bomb.

 

I wouldn't rule out not getting an IL-4/DB-3 at some point (Kuban battle!) but I can see why they chose to go with the Pe-2 a second time... It's both the most relevant bomber to the VVS at Moscow as well as the most successful and it means they don't have to build a new type. The devs have stated just how time consuming bomber development is. I'm still glad they do it and I hope that we slowly fill out the relevant types on both sides.

[Lusekofte]

I did not say the PE 2 is bad, I said the HE 111, JU 88, Ju 87 and 110 totally outmatch the IL 2 and PE 2. Say it is not so.

I say to balance things a level bomber on Russian side is in order. Nothing else

[Asgar]

Do I need to remind you what happened to MK_Turbo when he made similar statements? So yes, knock it off already. The plane isn't even out yet, and you're already panning it. 

are you threatening me? I don't know MK_Turbo and i don't see the problem with saying the truth. I don't value your opinion, what's wrong with that?

Edited March 1, 2016 by I./JG3_Asgar