Stuka

[A-E-Hartmann]

 Hi Dev's

 

Why JU-87B Stuka is not present in BOM ?

He was present during the battle .

[Dakpilot]

Am sure they could have put it in ..but then which other aircraft do you sacrifice? JU-88? Bf-110? 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Dutchvdm]

They can't make them all. For the BOM scenario they would have to make a B model (or R?). It would be a nice addition. But nicer than a B-110?

 

Grt Martijn

Edited January 27, 2016 by martijnvdm

[Danziger]

It should be available in one of the next BoM aircraft expansion sets.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

I hope we'll get the D5 first !

[A-E-Hartmann]

Am sure they could have put it in ..but then which other aircraft do you sacrifice? JU-88? Bf-110? 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Why sacrifice? it could just be added .

[Dakpilot]

Why sacrifice? it could just be added .

 

It could of course, but there are 10 aircraft, that is the format they have adopted for BoS and now BoM. Things of course could change in the future, but BoM has been planned that way for a long time

 

5 Axis aircraft already....you have to cut something to add a Stuka

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Dutchvdm]

It could of course, but there are 10 aircraft, that is the format they have adopted for BoS and now BoM. Things of course could change in the future, but BoM has been planned that way for a long time

 

5 Axis aircraft already....you have to cut something to add a Stuka

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

I think the 10 aircraft system works fine. But i have to say that i wouldn't mind trading the "special" aircraft's for one's that are more relevant for the theater. I somehow have the feeling that the 190 was added because the LW fans demanded it. The three other planes actually are historically correct and i hope this remains that way. 

 

Grt Martijn

[Finkeren]

Of course we'd all love to have it, but you have to draw the line  somewhere. For the Luftwaffe we got the Bf 110 and Ju 88 for BoM, hugely popular choices that we haven't seen in this sim before.

 

If anything, it was actually the VVS who got the short end of the stick, getting only very slightly different versions of the IL-2 and Pe-2 we already have in BoS. Personally I'd have prefered, that they leave out the early model IL-2 and model the SU-2 instead. It was as common as the IL-2 early in the war and a very  interesting aircraft to have.

 

Personally I'm hoping for a small bundle of AC to be released at some point to really flesh out the planesets of BoM/BoS.

[Dakpilot]

Personally I am happy with the 190, it is timescale historically correct and there is the map where it flew included with the game + it is popular 

 

win situation each way

 

Would love to see a planeset only add-on to flesh out the theaters BoS and BoM, whether it would be financially viable, at a price point people would be happy with is another matter   although further expansions may help out a bit anyway

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Monostripezebra]

and noone asking for the IAR 80, yet? Internet I´m dissapoint!11! ;=)

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I think the 10 aircraft system works fine. But i have to say that i wouldn't mind trading the "special" aircraft's for one's that are more relevant for the theater. I somehow have the feeling that the 190 was added because the LW fans demanded it. The three other planes actually are historically correct and i hope this remains that way. 

 

Grt Martijn

 

No one "demanded" it. When the plan for BoS, and it's content was decided, 99,9% who own it know didn't even know, that the game is coming.

It was probably included for marketing reasons, same as the whole scenario of Stalingrad.

The other 3 planes are not correct historically, there was no Macchi over Moscow, there was also no P40E over Moscow, at least not in 1941. The only premium aircraft that really fits to it's respective map/scenario is the La5.

[Finkeren]

Would love to see a planeset only add-on to flesh out the theaters BoS and BoM, whether it would be financially viable, at a price point people would be happy with is another matter although further expansions may help out a bit anyway

Given how fast this team works modelling new aircraft (an average of just over a month for the entire process) I don't see that an expansion set of aircraft would have to be progibitively expensive to make. Especially considering, that many of the aircraft would be slightly altered versions of planes we already have (early Yaks, LaGGs and Stukas)

 

I'd gladly pay 30-40$ for an 8-plane expansion pack, and I think a lot of other people would too.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I'd gladly pay 30-40$ for an 8-plane expansion pack, and I think a lot of other people would too.

+1, even if all 8 are "only" alterations of aircraft we already have in game

Edited January 27, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[Dutchvdm]

No one "demanded" it. When the plan for BoS, and it's content was decided, 99,9% who own it know didn't even know, that the game is coming.

It was probably included for marketing reasons, same as the whole scenario of Stalingrad.

The other 3 planes are not correct historically, there was no Macchi over Moscow, there was also no P40E over Moscow, at least not in 1941. The only premium aircraft that really fits to it's respective map/scenario is the La5.

 

Maybe the term demanding wasn't used right, but as soon as this message board went online it was a topic of debate. Historically it wouldn't be in the game, but a lot of members still wanted it. I can't believe that didn't make a difference. I'm not saying i don't like the 190, but i hope this method doesn't produce real weird combinations (Example: P51 for Battle of Kuban). I know the P40 and Macchi are not correct for Moscow, but they can be used for BOS.

 

Grt Martijn

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Maybe the term demanding wasn't used right, but as soon as this message board went online it was a topic of debate. Historically it wouldn't be in the game, but a lot of members still wanted it. I can't believe that didn't make a difference. I'm not saying i don't like the 190, but i hope this method doesn't produce real weird combinations (Example: P51 for Battle of Kuban). I know the P40 and Macchi are not correct for Moscow, but they can be used for BOS.

 

Grt Martijn

And the 190 can be used for Velikie Luki, and (hopefully) for future expansions.

But i get your point, and i fully agree with it. 190 is my favourite plane, but i would have preferred a 100% historical plane set up for both scenarios. 

I also hope, that it will be right in future scenarios, and no plane should be really off, like your Kuban P51 - that would be madness

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The B version would be nice indeed and even thought I'm a great fan of it (well, all Stukas) I'd rather look forward to more types of aircraft first. The Bf-110 was a nessecary addition to the german side since the Stuka was not a real contender for either the Sturmovik neither the Peshka, it's too specilasied. Now, with the Bf-110, this gap is finally filled with a well capeable aircraft.

 

As the B and R (B version with additional long range fuel tanks for African theatre) versions were used well until 1943 there's plenty of opportunities to inplement it someday.

[StG77_Kondor]

I hope we'll get the D5 first !

+1000000%. With a Stuvi!

[A-E-Hartmann]

 

 

I'd gladly pay 30-40$ for an 8-plane expansion pack, and I think a lot of other people would too.

 

1+

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Given how fast this team works modelling new aircraft (an average of just over a month for the entire process) I don't see that an expansion set of aircraft would have to be progibitively expensive to make. Especially considering, that many of the aircraft would be slightly altered versions of planes we already have (early Yaks, LaGGs and Stukas)

 

I'd gladly pay 30-40$ for an 8-plane expansion pack, and I think a lot of other people would too.

They made 3 modifications in a single month. 

To me this means:

 

BoM: 

-He-111H-4 (both internal bays are available instead of only one like in the H-6, so people can carry 32x50kg or 8x250kg or combinations of 1000; 1800 or 2500 ext.)

-LaGG-3 seria 1-3 (heavier, less power, retractable tailwheel, 5 guns. It's faster than the 109E and has 2xShKas, 2x12.7 UB and either Shvak or UBK in the Prop)

-Yak-1 1941 series (more glass, less power)

-Ju-87B (smaller bombload)

 

Could be 1 or 2 months

 

 

BoS:

-Bf110F (more aerodynamic, DB601E engine, same as Bf109F-4)

-Ju-88A-4 updated with heavier defensive armament and maybe ground attack options of the C-models

-P-40M with the stretched tail for better stability. 

 

This is maybe 1 month of work.

Edited January 27, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[LukeFF]

No one "demanded" it. When the plan for BoS, and it's content was decided, 99,9% who own it know didn't even know, that the game is coming.

It was probably included for marketing reasons, same as the whole scenario of Stalingrad.

The other 3 planes are not correct historically, there was no Macchi over Moscow, there was also no P40E over Moscow, at least not in 1941. The only premium aircraft that really fits to it's respective map/scenario is the La5.

 

It's been said by the team (repeatedly) that the reason for adding the 190, 202, and P-40 is because they are interesting from a strictly historical standpoint and thus their relevance to a particular map/battle is not important.

Edited January 27, 2016 by LukeFF

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

They made 3 modifications in a single month. 

To me this means:

 

BoM: 

-He-111H-4 (both internal bays are available instead of only one like in the H-6, so people can carry 32x50kg or 8x250kg or combinations of 1000; 1800 or 2500 ext.)

-LaGG-3 seria 1-3 (heavier, less power, retractable tailwheel, 5 guns. It's faster than the 109E and has 2xShKas, 2x12.7 UB and either Shvak or UBK in the Prop)

-Yak-1 1941 series (more glass, less power)

-Ju-87B (smaller bombload)

 

Could be 1 or 2 months

 

 

BoS:

-Bf110F (more aerodynamic, DB601E engine, same as Bf109F-4)

-Ju-88A-4 updated with heavier defensive armament and maybe ground attack options of the C-models

-P-40M with the stretched tail for better stability. 

 

This is maybe 1 month of work.

 

I really wish that packs like this would be a thing.

 

I think it is pretty clear that they moved away from a standalone-aircraft-centric business model (which they have stated) and moved towards a 10-aircraft-and-a-map model but that leaves out some important "fluff" in between like accounting for the different variants and how they are all individually interesting and unique in some right.

 

The F-2, IL-2 and Pe-2 for BOM were great choices for filling in the cracks but as long as the 10-aircraft-and-a-map model is followed I don't think we'll see a lot of fleshed out options for the various variants.

[Danziger]

They made 3 modifications in a single month. 

To me this means:

 

BoM: 

-He-111H-4 (both internal bays are available instead of only one like in the H-6, so people can carry 32x50kg or 8x250kg or combinations of 1000; 1800 or 2500 ext.)

-LaGG-3 seria 1-3 (heavier, less power, retractable tailwheel, 5 guns. It's faster than the 109E and has 2xShKas, 2x12.7 UB and either Shvak or UBK in the Prop)

-Yak-1 1941 series (more glass, less power)

-Ju-87B (smaller bombload)

 

Could be 1 or 2 months

 

 

BoS:

-Bf110F (more aerodynamic, DB601E engine, same as Bf109F-4)

-Ju-88A-4 updated with heavier defensive armament and maybe ground attack options of the C-models

-P-40M with the stretched tail for better stability. 

 

This is maybe 1 month of work.

 

 

Five gun LaGG would be awesome. I like the early ones.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I really wish that packs like this would be a thing.

 

I think it is pretty clear that they moved away from a standalone-aircraft-centric business model (which they have stated) and moved towards a 10-aircraft-and-a-map model but that leaves out some important "fluff" in between like accounting for the different variants and how they are all individually interesting and unique in some right.

 

The F-2, IL-2 and Pe-2 for BOM were great choices for filling in the cracks but as long as the 10-aircraft-and-a-map model is followed I don't think we'll see a lot of fleshed out options for the various variants.

As a starter, yes the 10 Craft model is fine, but not in the long term. A 16-20 Craft model per BoX, simply by modifying already existing models is perfectly valid. 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

No need to aim for bigger numbers (and thus prices). Why not just make individual light (fighter), medium (attacker/assault plane) and heavy (bomber) packs? There's no need to introduce 6+ fighter aircraft each scenario because you'll soon reach the redline where's no aircraft left that could be added reasonably to the according theatre.

 

Same way there're plenty of light attack and bomber aircraft that could fit well into the game but are unlikely to come with the 10 aircraft package rule set.

 

Another advantage would be that pilots only had to pay what they like to fly. If you don't like bombers, don't buy them. Same way vise versa.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

No need to aim for bigger numbers (and thus prices). Why not just make individual light (fighter), medium (attacker/assault plane) and heavy (bomber) packs? There's no need to introduce 6+ fighter aircraft each scenario because you'll soon reach the redline where's no aircraft left that could be added reasonably to the according theatre.

 

Same way there're plenty of light attack and bomber aircraft that could fit well into the game but are unlikely to come with the 10 aircraft package rule set.

 

Another advantage would be that pilots only had to pay what they like to fly. If you don't like bombers, don't buy them. Same way vise versa.

How about this:

Each new BoX comes with a starter set

Russians get a period correct Peshka, Il-2, Yak and LaLa and one surprise aircraft, germans get a 190, a 109, a surprise fighter, Stuka and 88 or 111, all other aircraft, like Auntie Ju's and Po-2s, Fw189s and whatever else should either come individually or as small packs (like P-36(Ger) and Hurricane(Rus) for BoM era).

[Porkins]

Why sacrifice? it could just be added .

I agree with this. Why couldn't they just have added this plane from BoS? If this series wants to grow, I think it has to iterate and build on what they've built previously. I get that with a niche title like this they could only offer 8-10 aircraft out of the gate due to lack of resources/revenue, but there shouldn't be much of an issue reusing assets already created for BoS. If they just offer 8 aircraft per game and $20 single plane expansions, the series will not grow I am afraid. Their decision to add BoM aircraft to BoS as non-flyable AI craft is a great example of leveraging their assets. Is it historically accurate? No. But it uses assets they had already created to make BoS much more interesting and attractive to buyers (although that ship probably largely sailed). 

 

What really drives this home in the OP's example is the Stuka. It is arguably the single most iconic aircraft for the Luftwaffe. It's hard to imagine a WW II flight sim that features the Germans w/out it. It's like doing a flight sim with the Japanese and not putting in the Zero. Bad business decision. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by Porkins

[Jade_Monkey]

No need to aim for bigger numbers (and thus prices). Why not just make individual light (fighter), medium (attacker/assault plane) and heavy (bomber) packs? There's no need to introduce 6+ fighter aircraft each scenario because you'll soon reach the redline where's no aircraft left that could be added reasonably to the according theatre.

Same way there're plenty of light attack and bomber aircraft that could fit well into the game but are unlikely to come with the 10 aircraft package rule set.

Another advantage would be that pilots only had to pay what they like to fly. If you don't like bombers, don't buy them. Same way vise versa.

 

I like the idea of having choices.

 

The main problem I see with your idea is that bombers take a lot more work to make and therefore costs them more to make them.

Bombers are also the least used planes in the game (form what I have seen) and therefore I would assume that less people would buy the bomber pack.

In the end, bomber packs would be incredibly expensive, or would't be made because they would be a money pit.

 

Instead, I would prefer that they release a new 10 plane pack. While artists are making the planes, the programmers are upgrading the game engine!

 

Win - win!

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'm not sure if the adding variations is as simple as everyone makes it out to be. I have just enough understanding to get that you can't just copy the model and throw things together and suddenly you have a different version. There's in-depth research (hopefully already semi-completed), programming, mesh changes may require texture changes, flight model programming is serious business, etc. Bottom line is that there are a lot of moving parts to getting one of these planes done properly and implemented into the game engine. Variations I'd love to see and I hope to see some effort on that but we should recognize its not a simple process either.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

All these things we want are a question of revenue and in tern draw. Even thou I love this game and will buy everything within reason. Unless they really think hard about how to draw more people with out sacrificing its quality and realism it will not fly far. Tbh I just see BOM as new planes and a map. We need to think up a real initiative draw that will really spark things off

Edited January 28, 2016 by [TBC]AeroACE

[Jade_Monkey]

Unless they really think hard about how to draw more people with out sacrificing its quality and realism it will not fly far.

 

I see what you did there...

[ShamrockOneFive]

All these things we want are a question of revenue and in tern draw. Even thou I love this game and will buy everything within reason. Unless they really think hard about how to draw more people with out sacrificing its quality and realism it will not fly far. Tbh I just see BOM as new planes and a map. We need to think up a real initiative draw that will really spark things off

 

That's fair but I also like to think that the expansion packages keep funding going which means more fixes, more seasonal map variations, more new features added, etc. The real draw for me is the map and the planes and everything else is secondary (although I'd love a little more for single player).

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Ok I'm gona sound like a criminal doing his "last job". But....

 

 

I feel there is a massive market...WT..... And what we need is that great idea that bring them here to convert.

 

But how to do so.

 

 

I'm thinking Sims need to go the direction of big online mmo but how to draw it in. ????

 

 

I have answers in my head but are not for this page.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I feel there is a massive market...WT..... And what we need is that great idea that bring them here to convert.

 

But how to do so..

You mean like mouse controll? Or maybe unlocks? Yea works great...

 

I'm not sure if the adding variations is as simple as everyone makes it out to be.

It depends I think. They already have a 3d model and cockpit for the Ju87 B-2 (from CloD) that could (depending on how much graphhical work they put into modifying it) take some time to get done properly and not look like a 1:1 port.

The FM would not be too torublesome. The B variant had a shorter wingspan, shorter nose and a different engine (Jumo 211D). They already got all the basic data from their previous ressearch, so the FM wouldn't require a massive ammount of new work to get done.

[ShamrockOneFive]

You mean like mouse controll? Or maybe unlocks? Yea works great...

 

It depends I think. They already have a 3d model and cockpit for the Ju87 B-2 (from CloD) that could (depending on how much graphhical work they put into modifying it) take some time to get done properly and not look like a 1:1 port.

The FM would not be too torublesome. The B variant had a shorter wingspan, shorter nose and a different engine (Jumo 211D). They already got all the basic data from their previous ressearch, so the FM wouldn't require a massive ammount of new work to get done.

 

He may mean some of the larger scale persistent battle events that WT's devs have been running. I'm still not sure if that would attract additional players or not. I'm very happy to let the 1CGS guys work on features that draw more players in - so far they have done a good job of balancing doing that with maintaining the simulator level of detail that WT does not have. After the initial hubbub was over.. I haven't see anyone worry about mouse control.

 

The 3D model and cockpit from CloD isn't really all that useful to them. Art styles are slightly different so it would look out of place and game engines require geometry and programming hooks to be very specifically done. They are further along by adapting the D-3 cockpit than trying to fight with the CloD engine B-2. I know much less about how the FM work goes so I don't know if it has to be redone entirely due to the differences in wing area and shape or not.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

How about we get a Murmansk Theater Map with all the stuff we already have and Stukas and whatever else to it as a 20-30$ Addition, like the channel map in RoF or Ilja Murometz?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The 3D model and cockpit from CloD isn't really all that useful to them. Art styles are slightly different so it would look out of place and game engines require geometry and programming hooks to be very specifically done. They are further along by adapting the D-3 cockpit than trying to fight with the CloD engine B-2. I know much less about how the FM work goes so I don't know if it has to be redone entirely due to the differences in wing area and shape or not.

The Bf-110 model is a recycled version of the Clod model. People proved it by simply applying Clod skins to it here in BoS and it works.

 

Same probably counts for the Emil and Ishak. 3d model isn't really related to art style as it's a direct replication from blueprints/other historical material.

 

Wing profile remained the same for all Stukas. Only changes wings went threw was increased wingspan for the D-5 as well as increased wing crank angle for the Dora series (nessecary because of the new prop's diameter).

Thats comparetively a low amount of work as opposed building a new FM for a completely new aircraft (not considering refference ressearch).

Edited January 28, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka