tips for combat in bf 109f

[migman]

This is the aircraft I have chosen to master if I can.

But I have found it difficult to handle due to losing speed in combat.

What I have found is below 300 kmph it becomes very difficult to handle I can't get the speed back up again and thus am an easy target. Diving is the only option which removes the height advantage.

You have to be trimming pitch in order to avoid over-speed and diving into the  ground.

The auto prop pitch seems to vary rather wildly.

Barrel rolling to avoid bullets also bleeds a lot of speed.

When the game starts the nose climbs quickly that requires a lot of pitch trim stabilise..is this normal ?

 

Does anyone have any actual flight notes from Luftwafe pilots ?

Why does the prop  pitch change so wildly ?

What is the best way get my speed back ?

 

I'm not flying in expert mode yet

 

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

 

Maybe somebody else'll touch this one... I'm not gonna.

[ACG_pezman]

 

Maybe somebody else'll touch this one... I'm not gonna.

Rofl! I'm an allied guy, but I'll give it a shot:

 

The pitch is nothing to concern yourself over, that's auto. It's wild because its attempting to maintain the rpm you have set. My guess is that the rpm gauge is staying constant. The trim deal, well that's the 109. It's set for takeoff so you will have to adjust after liftoff. I believe that 0% stabilizer (trim in effect) is for level flight at 300kph-ish. So just keep that as your baseline.

 

Rolling isn't the 109's strong suit, so it doesn't behoove you to use it in a pinch. It will burn energy, as it should, and does for every aircraft. Diving away is the best way to get out of a position that is not favorable to you, but in order for it to be effective you have to have enough altitude beneath you. So, in brief: get high and dive on your targets using your energy to zoom back up to safety. Rinse and repeat until your target is dead.

 

How about it LW guys, did I pretty much cover it all with the 109?

 

P.S. OP, you might want to consider the 190 as the aircraft for you to master. I just think it would make more sense to you.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Rofl! I'm an allied guy, but I'll give it a shot:

 

The pitch is nothing to concern yourself over, that's auto. It's wild because its attempting to maintain the rpm you have set. My guess is that the rpm gauge is staying constant. The trim deal, well that's the 109. It's set for takeoff so you will have to adjust after liftoff. I believe that 0% stabilizer (trim in effect) is for level flight at 300kph-ish. So just keep that as your baseline.

 

Rolling isn't the 109's strong suit, so it doesn't behoove you to use it in a pinch. It will burn energy, as it should, and does for every aircraft. Diving away is the best way to get out of a position that is not favorable to you, but in order for it to be effective you have to have enough altitude beneath you. So, in brief: get high and dive on your targets using your energy to zoom back up to safety. Rinse and repeat until your target is dead.

 

How about it LW guys, did I pretty much cover it all with the 109?

 

P.S. OP, you might want to consider the 190 as the aircraft for you to master. I just think it would make more sense to you.

 

Ugh.   

 

Haha.   

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

This is the aircraft I have chosen to master if I can.

(A.) But I have found it difficult to handle due to losing speed in combat.

(B.) What I have found is below 300 kmph it becomes very difficult to handle I can't get the speed back up again and thus am an easy target. Diving is the only option which removes the height advantage.

(C.) You have to be trimming pitch in order to avoid over-speed and diving into the  ground.

(D.) The auto prop pitch seems to vary rather wildly.

(E.) Barrel rolling to avoid bullets also bleeds a lot of speed.

(F.) When the game starts the nose climbs quickly that requires a lot of pitch trim stabilise..is this normal ?

 

Does anyone have any actual flight notes from Luftwafe pilots ?

Why does the prop  pitch change so wildly ?

What is the best way get my speed back ?

 

I'm not flying in expert mode yet

 

(A.) Teach me your trick... I can't bleed enough speed in a 109 F when I need to. 

(B.) I usually cruise between 375-425KPH and I don't seem to experience what you're describing... Everything seems to have issues catching up to the 109 F from a co-E situation with some rare exceptions.

(C.) Don't dive at a "terminal" angle you won't be able to pull out of. Don't dive 3000m at a time. 

(D.) I don't experience this issue at any altitude, engine setting or speed. At 1.1-1.2ata the engine does a fine job at keeping itself around 2200RPM in level flight. 

(E.) Rolling is not the 109's greatest strength. Dive to gain some separation, spiral climb away at a later time!

(F.) I keep the 109 F trimmed nose heavy to setting 1 on the vertical stabilizer's indicator. I think this is around 30-40% deflection in Technochat.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

This is the aircraft I have chosen to master if I can.

But I have found it difficult to handle due to losing speed in combat.

What I have found is below 300 kmph it becomes very difficult to handle I can't get the speed back up again and thus am an easy target. Diving is the only option which removes the height advantage.

You have to be trimming pitch in order to avoid over-speed and diving into the  ground.

The auto prop pitch seems to vary rather wildly.

Barrel rolling to avoid bullets also bleeds a lot of speed.

When the game starts the nose climbs quickly that requires a lot of pitch trim stabilise..is this normal ?

 

Does anyone have any actual flight notes from Luftwafe pilots ?

Why does the prop  pitch change so wildly ?

What is the best way get my speed back ?

 

I'm not flying in expert mode yet

Hoo boy,

 

 

Lessee, firstly, don't go below 300 for any reason, ever, until you are well versed in the AC. If you are maneuvering or climbing below 300 you need to lighten up on the stick. Which leads us to 'NOSE CLIMBS' issues............lighten up on the stick. When climbing, pitch for the ANGLE which produces a steady 300 kph. Regardless of whether you are starting at 300 or 550 kph the pitch ANGLE relative to the horizon will be (more or less) the same until you get to a steady state climb.

 

You need to maneuver a 109 less and just let her run. The G2 is a little less capable as a turn fighter than the F but the instrument panel gives you more feedback as to what your attitude and E state within her are. The artificial horizon is key.

 

Turn fights are very doable in the 109 but until you master E management, don't follow an enemy through more than about 180 degrees. Extend, and/or climb, set up and re-evaluate. Also, a good time to check six if you haven't been doing so all along.

 

Don't dive beyond 700 kph until you are well familiar with the AC.............and have sufficient height to pull out of said dive. The prop pitch is functioning properly and responds to a variety of factors, not limited to just your throttle position. I rarely reset elevator trim in German birds unless I am carrying external ordinance. You will have to apply rudder forces to keep her straight throughout the flight envelope - also, correctly/historically modeled.

 

The best way to get your speed back is to not lose it in the first place...............and lighten up on the stick. You can dive to 550-600 kph, extend and then start a climb when you are either separated or have gained an E advantage over your adversary. You can use the trim to assist in the pull out if you recognize the problem early. Try not to get into this bad situation by not diving above 700 as this will cause tactical problems in many cases. Even if you survive the pull out.

 

I'm transitioning away from the Fw to the Bf this month. If you need help PM me or I can hook up with you on TS if you are doing MP.

 

The above sounds tongue in cheek (OK, a little) but most of your issues are E management.

 

Also, stay AWAY from the 190 until your E management in the 109 is rock solid. The 190 will kill you fast if you just try to yank it around. The only advantage in this AC over the 109 is the pull out from high speed dives.

Edited January 25, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The F-4 is one of if not the most forgiving combat aircraft ingame. In general it's the most powerfull of the axis fighters and the easiest to master.

 

To begin with you should focus on keeping her straight and perfecting your energy management before messing with different manouvres. The 109 has good manouvrebility but it usually doesn't need to use all of it.

 

After that you can start practising manouvre fighting. Even when manouvreing, keeping your energy up is the key thing to keep in mind when flying the 109, hence why it's important to practise it first.

 

It is also a good stallfighter, but that's a topic for another time.

[Sokol1]

Barrel rolling to avoid bullets also bleeds a lot of speed.

 

Instead try Hartmman escape: push the stick forward at 45 degrees corner and slam the rudder for same side:

 

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Sokol1

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Yah, don't ever do this. It is an inside joke among EA guys at this point.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Yah, don't ever do this. It is an inside joke among EA guys at this point.

 

[GP*]

This is the aircraft I have chosen to master if I can.

But I have found it difficult to handle due to losing speed in combat.

What I have found is below 300 kmph it becomes very difficult to handle I can't get the speed back up again and thus am an easy target. Diving is the only option which removes the height advantage.

You have to be trimming pitch in order to avoid over-speed and diving into the ground.

The auto prop pitch seems to vary rather wildly.

Barrel rolling to avoid bullets also bleeds a lot of speed.

When the game starts the nose climbs quickly that requires a lot of pitch trim stabilise..is this normal ?

 

Does anyone have any actual flight notes from Luftwafe pilots ?

Why does the prop pitch change so wildly ?

What is the best way get my speed back ?

 

I'm not flying in expert mode yet

Your problems have nothing to do with the 109. It's a lack of understanding when it comes to BFM.

 

I'd suggest posting a track of a fight you fly so we can provide some constructive criticism. Otherwise this post will just end up as a series of banalities about air combat like many other threads.

[migman]

Certainly not blaming the flight model or anything to do with game itself.

I certainly don't consider myself a great combat pilot which is why I was asking for advice.

Thanks to those that gave it.

[Dakpilot]

If you are interested in learning the very basics are explained quite well here BFM

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

 

For a decent introduction into the study the book (400 or so pages)

 

FIGHTER COMBAT Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert L Shaw Naval Institute Press

 

explains the basics, although some is related to Jet flying the principles and tactics explained are relevant, it can be found with a little google help as a free PDF (pretty sure a legit download and not illegal)

 

Then learn the limits of your chosen aircraft, as said above the correct attitude/speed for climb without wasting energy is very important, the most important aspect of air combat is energy management, (along side situational awareness) it is what separates the very good guys (I am not one of them LoL) and it is not at all always second nature to do this properly 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

Definitely a E management issue. A common mistake pilots make is going into pure pursuit (pulling as hard as possible until they have the enemy in their target reticle), which is a quick way to bleed energy and die fast. It's all about knowing when to "cash in" your energy at the right times in a constant evolving situation. 

 

I strongly recommend you watch this video. The guy in it has a mustache and although he is talking about modern BFM tactics (basic fighter maneuvers) the very same was used in WWII. This video is Golden and if you haven't seen it, you should. You'll come out a better pilot.

 

Watch it from beginning to end, it will be brain overload, especially at the beginning but it's worth watching at least three times to get it to sink in....honestly.

 

Corner air speed for most of BoS aircraft is 300-310kph without flaps. Keep that in mind when hes talks about Corner air speed.

 

Edited January 26, 2016 by =69.GIAP=RADKO

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

1 vs 1 is usefull but (like with most things in flight sims) it's easier to folliw the "learning by doing" principle and hoining a server.

 

1 vs 1 teaches you how to control the airplane and outmanouvre your enemy at same conditions.

 

Flying with a wingman as Chief suggests teaches teamtactics. They're important, too, especially when joining an online squadron or flying with buddies.

 

What both lack though is air combat tactics and SA. Both of those need to be trained extensively no matter if you fly alone or in a group.

 

A group dogfight against ai might be a good start but keep in mind human players are a different animal to deal with. Thats why, in my opinion, joining a dogfightserver is the best way to train yourself in an adequat envirounment.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

This is NOT the way to do it. If you always have your wingman come and save your ass every time you get in trouble you'll never learn how to actually fight. You have to learn how to fight by yourself first. And the only way to do that is to fight 1vs1 duels online. Same plane, same altitude&energy, you'll improve quickly. I suggest you to watch some of the videos of duel tournaments on yt first, learn the basics, and just join one of the duel servers straight away, no need to waste time with the AI.

 

Actually, its quite the opposite. Its pretty much impossible to judge your skill if your hiding behind your wingman. Not that theres anything wrong with that. Its fun to team up and fly with ur friends on open dogfight servers. Its just that too many times i see people who are limited to primitive bnz tactics because they never took the step to start practising dueling and improving their piloting skills.

 

I, and the various air forces of the period, would tend to disagree with you. Your wingman is your air, your eyes, your blood and your best chance for survival. A wingman is not a crutch but one of your greatest tools in combat.

 

Oops terribly sorry; I shall remove the misleading advice forthwith!

 

Don't be so quick to apologize - your advice was perfectly sound and entirely relevant.

 

Speaking from ACG experience, flying with a wingman will make you a better pilot - you'll definitely still fight "on your own" every once in a while but overall, flying with a mate provides more flexibility in a pilot becoming a better individual pilot... The first time I flew with 49 other Luftwaffe pilots at once I couldn't down a Spitfire no matter how hard I was locked on him - the nerves overcame me and I could never get the shot... But after a while you get more comfortable with the fact that Kraut of all people is watching your tail, the nerves subside and you will make that shot that you couldn't make before... 

Edited January 26, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[unreasonable]

Just add my banality:

 

Beginner - "Teach me to fight"

 

Forum - "Read Shaw, learn flying jargon, watch instruments, get wingman, do not get wingman ......."

 

Mr Miyagi - "First wash car - wax on, wax off, wax on, wax off ...."

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

Just add my banality:

 

Beginner - "Teach me to fight"

 

Forum - "Read Shaw, learn flying jargon, watch instruments, get wingman, do not get wingman ......."

 

Mr Miyagi - "First wash car - wax on, wax off, wax on, wax off ...."

 

I don't know why I bothered contributing to be honest. I was thinking about posting something similar. 

 

Hes asked how to improve his flying 1 vs 1, that is all. The video I posted teaches you Jargon so to then teach you the real stuff. One step at a time, keeping it simple.

Edited January 26, 2016 by =69.GIAP=RADKO

[Dakpilot]

Ok, join a squad with experienced pilots, enjoy flying while learning to improve ones skills 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[unreasonable]

I don't know why I bothered contributing to be honest. I was thinking about posting something similar. 

 

Hes asked how to improve his flying 1 vs 1, that is all. The video I posted teaches you Jargon so to then teach you the real stuff. One step at a time, keeping it simple.

 

Yes I know, was not directed at your post (I think it is a good film too, even with the mustache).

 

Keep It Simple Stupid must be right for a beginner - and others too, I expect. Just the barrage of conflicting advice the poor chap gets....

Edited January 26, 2016 by unreasonable

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Definitely a E management issue. A common mistake pilots make is going into pure pursuit (pulling as hard as possible until they have the enemy in their target reticle), which is a quick way to bleed energy and die fast. It's all about knowing when to "cash in" your energy at the right times in a constant evolving situation. 

 

I strongly recommend you watch this video. The guy in it has a mustache and although he is talking about modern BFM tactics (basic fighter maneuvers) the very same was used in WWII. This video is Golden and if you haven't seen it, you should. You'll come out a better pilot.

 

Watch it from beginning to end, it will be brain overload, especially at the beginning but it's worth watching at least three times to get it to sink in....honestly.

 

Corner air speed for most of BoS aircraft is 300-310kph without flaps. Keep that in mind when hes talks about Corner air speed.

 

I agree this video is a good place to start. Also watch the old Il2 video's by DART on YouTube. They are an excellent start.

 

Shaw's book is good but a little heavy for a beginner. I think it is a good resource when you have mastered the basics already. I'd, in it's place, recommend Air Combat Manoueuvres, 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Air-Combat-Manoeuvres-Technique-Simulation/dp/1903223989/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453822311&sr=8-1&keywords=air+combat+manoeuvres

 

as a starting point. It is well written and illustrated too.

[ACG_KaiLae]

Definitely a E management issue. A common mistake pilots make is going into pure pursuit (pulling as hard as possible until they have the enemy in their target reticle), which is a quick way to bleed energy and die fast. It's all about knowing when to "cash in" your energy at the right times in a constant evolving situation. 

 

I strongly recommend you watch this video. The guy in it has a mustache and although he is talking about modern BFM tactics (basic fighter maneuvers) the very same was used in WWII. This video is Golden and if you haven't seen it, you should. You'll come out a better pilot.

 

Watch it from beginning to end, it will be brain overload, especially at the beginning but it's worth watching at least three times to get it to sink in....honestly.

 

Corner air speed for most of BoS aircraft is 300-310kph without flaps. Keep that in mind when hes talks about Corner air speed.

 

 

Pete Bonnani in art of the kill. Had 20 year old flashbacks.

[Luger1969]

Also these tutorials by Requiem:

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/RequiemBoS

https://www.youtube.com/user/Requiem10NS

 

+ in the video section for example

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/3882-video-mkmrx/?do=findComment&comment=81097  this guy is good..no heavy maneuvering just placing yourself at the right time and the right place plus good shooting. Comes with SA, energy management, practice etc.

 

Ape of the year also has some very good 109 tutorials. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUyEbp1iw_PrgHx7nji2ohQyhHqBPluh1

 

Kind regards.

 

A.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

A little guide that helped me a lot: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/lento_ohjeet/inpursuit/inpursuit.pdf

 

It's a summary of all the heavier stuff like Shaw and etc., put in a simpler way and applied directly to the virtual pilot's world. Unlike other books, it is short, very accessible and beginner-friendly so you won't get lost or bored. If you read it and like it, paperback is available on Amazon too

 

My tip is, read it once, practice what you've learned, and once you feel you've hit a wall again read it once more. Refer to any passage of interest whenever you need to, and keep the PDF or book easy to find. I usually go over it while commuting whenever I feel the need to.

 

Everyone else answered all your specific questions before, now this has become yet another tactics thread

[Luger1969]

A last from me:

 

Gunnery training

[JGr2/J5_W0LF-]

Here my 2 cents. First the Bf-109F4 is a very fast plane. Its best between 3000-5000k. I never recommend turn fighting if you don't have to. Dive on your NME and get good placed shots then climb back up, reset and do it again. Most importantly never fly alone. Always fly with a friend. If you do encounter an NME and you get stuck lower then 2500 set the NME up for a drag, letting your wingman know what your altitude is and heading. If he has vis on you then simply keep making small zig-zag type moves to give him a hard time keeping you in his sights until hes bounced by your wing. Then the fun begins.......Good Luck

 

P.S. Some of the earlier posts have some good info in them as well. I highly recommend you read Angels and Airspeed. I have all of my pilots get it and read it. Well worth it.

Edited January 26, 2016 by 4./JG53_Badger

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

A little guide that helped me a lot: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/lento_ohjeet/inpursuit/inpursuit.pdf

 

It's a summary of all the heavier stuff like Shaw and etc., put in a simpler way and applied directly to the virtual pilot's world. Unlike other books, it is short, very accessible and beginner-friendly so you won't get lost or bored. If you read it and like it, paperback is available on Amazon too

 

My tip is, read it once, practice what you've learned, and once you feel you've hit a wall again read it once more. Refer to any passage of interest whenever you need to, and keep the PDF or book easy to find. I usually go over it while commuting whenever I feel the need to.

 

Everyone else answered all your specific questions before, now this has become yet another tactics thread

In Pursuit was my first written material. It is also very good. The basics don't change, just the presentation.

[=jg52=yobbo89]

one that works great with someone on your 6 at a distance and you can't out run him is to climb and turn in direction of the 109 prop spin,start shallow so he bleeds a bit then hook it hard.

 

https://youtu.be/uDT_UDg38k8?t=179

Edited January 29, 2016 by =jg52=yobbo89

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Thats a rope a dope and yes it works great against most VVS fighters. You shouldn't really try that against the Yak though unless you're flying he F-4 (which has a 50/50 sucess ratio) because of...well, it's a Yak

[=jg52=yobbo89]

just do this