Solution to the Flap Issue

[Monostripezebra]

i think the main point is not a "use time penalty" but the simpe fact, that flaps at full-out landing position are huge "brake"..and while the Yak is most prominent, other planes as well have too little energy loss (as in braking) and sinkrate.. as well as reduced aileron efficency. Landing configuration is for landing, not for dogfights and you properly get into that on final, when your ability to reach the runway is secured and not much anywhere else.

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

Most common thing for every air plane is when you deploy FLAPs increase airlift and drag correct, and decrease Angel of Attack.

Should be impossible to pull even harder with Flaps deployed because the Plane should stall away because the airflow cut.  

 

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by 9./JG27MAD-MM

[Dakpilot]

The Yak cannot have landing flaps deployed at any speed faster than 250 kmh which incidentally is the minimum flap retract speed, you can look at the barber pole to see how much flaps is out at what speed

 

There is another aircraft with similar type flaps which are also pneumatically operated and allowed to be used at high speed without restriction, whilst the system is not identical the principle is the same.

 

 

I only post this to show that the flaps 'G' issue is not as clear cut as people are saying

 

There do seem to be issues but not really this, do other aircraft's flaps jam/break when at 15/25% when pulling hard maneuvers? at high speed/high G the Yaks flaps are all but retracted and the Yak is not able to sustain very high G due to less effective elevator authority compared to some other aircraft, the much lower wing loading of the Yak is something not often considered when comparing the more benign flight characteristics to 109/190 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited January 24, 2016 by Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The Bf-109 had a neutral lock mechanism for flaps, means there's no internal pressure on the system itself. Apart from that it also feautured a different flap system (not saying that to make a point but adding another variable we need to consider).

 

While it's not clear to what extent an aircraft operated with pneamatic split flaps should suffer damage under such abuse it's clear no sober pilot would try to do so, and there for sure is a very good reason for it.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Dakpilot]

Pilots used this to their advantage in dogfights and could select the flap handle down before engaging another aircraft. If, during the dogfight, the airplane happened to slow down below a certain speed, the flaps would creep out.

This gave the Wildcat a tighter turning radius, which was a major advantage in a dogfight, as they could potentially turn inside the opponent and get on his tail.

 

Kermit Weeks F4F Wildcat Pilot and owner

 

While the F4F is very different  am sure the pilot's were sober most of the time  

 

Again I am not trying to say there are no issues with the flaps, just that the issues are not what a lot of people are saying, the controls and flap mechanism of the Yak are not correctly portrayed, the Hellcat did have combat flaps they worked IRL like Yak flaps work now in game, they were effective and used, where the problem is, is the Yak should not be able to take advantage the way it does (full auto flaps) due to simplified Flap control modeling

 

so long as people are chasing the wrong reasons it will never get solved

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited January 24, 2016 by Dakpilot

[Ace_Pilto]

I think the F4F had electric flaps?

 

Anyway, Kermit probably explains it in his video on the F4F. If you haven't seen his channel then search Fantasy of Flight on YouTube, there's some great content there.

[Dakpilot]

I think the F4F had electric flaps?

 

Anyway, Kermit probably explains it in his video on the F4F. If you haven't seen his channel then search Fantasy of Flight on YouTube, there's some great content there.

 

sigh....

 

check the page from the manual 3 posts up (pneumatic but vacuum rather than pressure)  his channel is great, if anyone gets the chance, his place is definitely worth a visit, no where else to see a flyable Sunderland (at least when i was there)

 

F6F Hellcat has hydraulic flaps actuated by electric switch with backup hydraulic selector in case of electrical failure, they can be set to automatically deploy (spring loaded) when speed drops below  315 kmh and will be fully deployed at 172 kmh, but they (flaps) are very different to F4F and Yak

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[GP*]

DOUBLE Cheers.

[Ace_Pilto]

He's cracking

[Livai]

A good plane to compare is the Fw-190. Why? Same under the wing flaps how the Yak has. I wonder what happend if the Fw-190 get automatic flaps?  Same improvement like the Yak, maybe. Yak and Fw-190 flaps should work similar because both plane use under wing flaps. The only difference from both planes is that the Yak use flaps controlled by airspeed but this should not change the behaviour if I compare how the Fw-190 flaps work with Combat or Landing Mode. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

A good plane to compare is the Fw-190. Why? Same under the wing flaps how the Yak has. I wonder what happend if the Fw-190 get automatic flaps?  Same improvement like the Yak, maybe. Yak and Fw-190 flaps should work similar because both plane use under wing flaps. The only difference from both planes is that the Yak use flaps controlled by airspeed but this should not change the behaviour if I compare how the Fw-190 flaps work with Combat or Landing Mode. 

Sorry, man. Other than their position under the wing they have little in common from an operating standpoint.

[LLv24_Zami]

About the flaps, did you guys notice this: 

 

P.S.

This experimental executable also contains some new changes that will be in next 1.108 official update, for example corrected fineness ratios with retracted flaps for LaGG-3, La-5, Yak-1 and IL-2 (P-40 isn't ready yet) and fix for track playback crash (older tracks won't be playable unfortunately). Please don't discuss these changes in this thread to make it easier to manage.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/20876-joint-voluntary-invisible-planes-testing-initiative/?p=329708

[303_Kwiatek]

Any tried?

[Y-29.Silky]

Anyone else think it's fixed? I'm seeing Yaks stall and kind of sink to the ground.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Don't know if the translation of fineness ratio I've found was correct but it actually has nothing to do with flaps.

 

I also quicktested the Yak and noticed nothing new. managed to prophang with flaps retracted up to 0km/h perfectly with enough elevator, rudder and aileroun controll left to move the nose around freely.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Willy__]

Any tried?

 

 

Anyone else think it's fixed? I'm seeing Yaks stall and kind of sink to the ground.

 

 

Patch 1.108 isnt out yet. But I doubt it will be fixed... 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Herr_Istruba

[PeterZvan]

There is a lot of new stuff with Yaks flaps (version 1.08 is out in parts - read Hans announcement)

Now its not nearly as stable as before with flaps out at low speeds.

Before the biggest advantage was in stable slow speed rolling scissors - now its much less effective as before.

Secondly - sustained times have stabilised.

Before the sustained time advantage with flaps out were significant - they droped around 2,5 to 3 sec per turn.

Now they bring no advantage in a sustained turn - turn time is more or less the same with or without flaps - howevere with flaps the speed is around 240km/h and without flaps its around 290km/h.

But its very easy to mess up with flaps now as it dosent recover the speed as easily as before.

So lots of positives coming.

[Sokol1]

 

 

Now its not nearly as stable as before with flaps out at low speeds.

 

Similar impression.

 

Dont know if this happen before - Yak-1 flaps lock in ~10º after a ~700 KM/H dive, in this experimental version.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

There is a lot of new stuff with Yaks flaps (version 1.08 is out in parts - read Hans announcement)

Now its not nearly as stable as before with flaps out at low speeds.

Before the biggest advantage was in stable slow speed rolling scissors - now its much less effective as before.

Secondly - sustained times have stabilised.

Before the sustained time advantage with flaps out were significant - they droped around 2,5 to 3 sec per turn.

Now they bring no advantage in a sustained turn - turn time is more or less the same with or without flaps - howevere with flaps the speed is around 240km/h and without flaps its around 290km/h.

But its very easy to mess up with flaps now as it dosent recover the speed as easily as before.

So lots of positives coming.

 

Hey, did you test all of that yourself? 

[Y-29.Silky]

Flew a bit of the dogfight server tonight in a Yak... I eventually quit because no one was flying Russian and was tired of 109 wehraboos shooting me down.

The 109's were out turning me every single damn time, if you don't believe me, go try it out for yourself. 

 

Edit: *In a Yak.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Y-29.Silky

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Flew a bit of the dogfight server tonight in a Yak... I eventually quit because no one was flying Russian and was tired of 109 wehraboos shooting me down.

The 109's were out turning me every single damn time, if you don't believe me, go try it out for yourself. 

 

Edit: *In a Yak.

Definitely not in the current build..had a dogfight in a Yak against a pretty good 109 pilot in his F4 a few days ago, and with a few "flap-pops" i had no problem what so ever to turn with (inside) him. Flaps still provide instant Chaika turn performance

[Sokol1]

Is in 1.08 "WW plane hunting" version?

 

At least visually Yak-1 flaps lever now have neutral position, after command flaps up. 

[coconut]

I had a couple quick fights against the AI (yak vs f4), can't say I'm seeing a difference in turn fights.

 

[Feathered_IV]

I think the last dev diary said it was planned that they would look at the flap issue this year.  Not that it would be in the change notes for last week's patch.

[coconut]

See the announcement about the test build for the invisible plane issue. It includes some FM adjustments to the yak and other Russian planes.

[Dakpilot]

This is the quote

 

P.S.

This experimental executable also contains some new changes that will be in next 1.108 official update, for example corrected fineness ratios with retracted flaps for LaGG-3, La-5, Yak-1 and IL-2 (P-40 isn't ready yet) and fix for track playback crash (older tracks won't be playable unfortunately). Please don't discuss these changes in this thread to make it easier to manage.

 

see thread here  

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/20876-joint-voluntary-invisible-planes-testing-initiative/

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[JtD]

There is another aircraft with similar type flaps which are also pneumatically operated and allowed to be used at high speed without restriction, whilst the system is not identical the principle is the same.

Well, lets see, F4F flaps don't deploy above 130knots, and if deployed, at that speed, they are retracted to 10°. How's that similar to Yak-1 flaps that auto-deploy at any speed?

 

And WRT the topic title, I also have a solution - Han posts the relevant part(s) of the flight test he claims to have. Case closed.

Edited February 4, 2016 by JtD

[Dakpilot]

Well, lets see, F4F flaps don't deploy above 130knots, and if deployed, at that speed, they are retracted to 10°. How's that similar to Yak-1 flaps that auto-deploy at any speed?

 

And WRT the topic title, I also have a solution - Han posts the relevant part(s) of the flight test he claims to have. Case closed

 

 

The point is that if you deploy flaps at high speed in F4F they don't get damaged because they don't come out, same as Yak (but different speeds F4F, is much slower  and 130kts is slower than the recomended minimum flap retract speed for Yak-1), half of the arguments have been that they should get 'ripped off' etc. this is the principle in operation  that is the same

 

points of view that they are like a plywood office door and should be ripped off have clouded the discussion...

 

Anyway, sounds like there are some serious changes for Yak flaps coming with 1.08, with possibility of 'neutral' position being modeled, or at least being taken into account, and if the unrealistic stability with flaps deployed is reduced this 'exploit' hopefully will end

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[PeterZvan]

Hey, did you test all of that yourself? 

 

Yes I did - with the new test build 1.008 which IS ACTIVE online if you download the experimental file which should fix the invisable planes -> in the bottom of that annoucement Han clearly states that the flaps changes to some planes were allready implemented there - therefore I did the tests.

Funilly you can fly with it online allready - however if flying german you never know if the Yak you are fighting is using the new version or the old.

I did the tests in quick mission and measured the times - back to back with the old version.

Edited February 4, 2016 by PeterZvan

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I only saw him saying "corrected finenesse ratio for planes with retracted flaps". How does thaz equal "fixed flaps for all planes"?

 

Just saying because as far as my testing goes everythings still the same with flaps extendet and retracted (by that I mean the obvious issies that plague the current FM, not the exact turn time/speed/whatever).

[Brano]

It is a wrong translation,IMHO.

Original by Han: перенастроено аэродинамическое качество крыла при выпущенных щитках translated as "corrected finenesse ratio for planes with retracted flaps"

should be : reconfiguration of wing properties/behavior when flaps are deployed.

Han can correct me,if Im wrong

[PeterZvan]

I only saw him saying "corrected finenesse ratio for planes with retracted flaps". How does thaz equal "fixed flaps for all planes"?

 

Just saying because as far as my testing goes everythings still the same with flaps extendet and retracted (by that I mean the obvious issies that plague the current FM, not the exact turn time/speed/whatever).

 

Well - to be able to judge the effect it has to be measured and the change is significant when measured.

As the turn times changed with flaps out this also has effect on the climb, stability...

 

However the real indicator will be MP after 1.008 comes out.

My prediction is that the Yak will still use flaps in certain situations, however much less effectivly than in 1.007.

To go in a turnfight with it in a G2 or F4 will still be very risky and I think the Yak will still have the edge although not as in 1.007 where it was over immidiatly if the Yak pilot was good.

[JtD]

The point is that if you deploy flaps at high speed in F4F they don't get damaged because they don't come out, same as Yak ...

In the Yak, at any speed, as modelled in game, they do come out.

[Dakpilot]

At high speed they are only deployed about 5-10% as speed drops they deploy further...anyway this is all rather redundant until test are done with full implementation of patch 1.08

 

As someone who has experienced full asymmetric flap deployment in a large aircraft i am not one to advocate unrealistic flap behavior or strength

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited February 4, 2016 by Dakpilot

[MK_RED13]

Finaly.. at this moment... when I fly ONLINE as AXIS pilot..two different FM's of Yak during one flight waiting for me? 

Patch 1.08... mean 1.108.. right? 

Edited February 4, 2016 by MK_RED13

[Dakpilot]

Finaly.. at this moment... when I fly ONLINE as AXIS pilot..two different FM's of Yak during one flight waiting for me? 

Patch 1.08... mean 1.108.. right? 

 

You jest at serious work being done to rectify some genuine bugs in MP? and possibly a fix for a long time complaint..., perhaps you would rather nothing was done?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Well - to be able to judge the effect it has to be measured and the change is significant when measured.

As the turn times changed with flaps out this also has effect on the climb, stability...

 

However the real indicator will be MP after 1.008 comes out.

My prediction is that the Yak will still use flaps in certain situations, however much less effectivly than in 1.007.

To go in a turnfight with it in a G2 or F4 will still be very risky and I think the Yak will still have the edge although not as in 1.007 where it was over immidiatly if the Yak pilot was good.

Retested it again and while I do seem to be able to confirm increased turntime with the mod client (IAS = 240km/h for comparison) I can't notice any changes to flight stability, especially at high pitch angles/ certical climbs.

 

Agree it's better to wait for MP to show what effect it has after all and if it's the long awaited fix everybody seems to expect it to be.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[MK_RED13]

You jest at serious work being done to rectify some genuine bugs in MP? and possibly a fix for a long time complaint..., perhaps you would rather nothing was done?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

No, I am not jesting at the work... I am just surprised!

[NachtJaeger110]

Retested it again and while I do seem to be able to confirm increased turntime with the mod client (IAS = 240km/h for comparison) I can't notice any changes to flight stability, especially at high pitch angles/ certical climbs.

 

Agree it's better to wait for MP to show what effect it has after all and if it's the long awaited fix everybody seems to expect it to be.

Sorry, I don't get it. We have the unique situtaion now to be able to jump between two game versions and measure the difference. What is better than this? Everybody having 1.8 installed means purely subjective opinions.

And in general- don't underestimate the placebo effect here. They told us something changed, so according to science some of us might notice changes even if there are none. We can only try to measure as exactly as possible and compare the numbers.

[Y-29.Silky]

I don't know, I took out the F-4 today was still able to out turn Yaks for multiple gun solutions. Let's not turn into Luftwhiners here.