Solution to the Flap Issue

[Willy__]

The turning thing doesn't worry me so much, because I don't think any self-respecting German should engage in  'turning contests' with the Russians.  What does irritate me is the apparent ability of the Yak to quickly transition from full 'flap hover mode' to light speed.   I tend to be a bit old-fashioned cos I don't believe it should be possible for any aircraft (in this case a Yak 1) to zoom-climb up to a higher enemy in level flight, engage full flaps to prevent a stall while transitioning to level flight pursuit, then close flaps and quickly accelerate and stay with the fleeing enemy fighter.  I just don't see how that's possible, but it happens.  

 

 

+1

 

Here, I'll quote Wulf, as people tend to forget that the turn radius/time is not that big of a deal, as already said, the Yak does bleed speed while turning with the flaps down, and any good german pilot wont turn fight the Yaks. But thats not the problem, the problem is exacly like Wulf said, essentially its the ability of the Yak to prop hang and have a very very good and stable platform while doing so, all of that with the flaps deployed. Also it does accell rather quickly, but that is another matter.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Herr_Istruba

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Well, maybe not in the next update, but they are working on it!

With this point, the Devs are making clear they know that it is not right how it is currently, acknowledge it, and are willing to fix it. That is the most important!

 

Mr X flies mostly German.  He's not exploiting the "feature", he's killing guys who are exploiting the "feature".

And that doesn't yield anything useful for this discussion what so ever. Same like the other useless troll statements telling about how to counter that exploit, or "to become a better pilot to shoot a Yak down"

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Mr X flies mostly German.  He's not exploiting the "feature", he's killing guys who are exploiting the "feature".

 

Do you watch any of his videos..? He flies VVS plenty and certainly takes advantage of the exploit... Thanks to the fact that the developer won't let server operators opt out of Technochat that's really not all too hard to verify with one's eyes. 

With this point, the Devs are making clear they know that it is not right how it is currently, acknowledge it, and are willing to fix it. That is the most important!

 

And that doesn't yield anything useful for this discussion what so ever. Same like the other useless troll statements telling about how to counter that exploit, or "to become a better pilot to shoot a Yak down"

 

+1

[BraveSirRobin]

Do you watch any of his videos..? He flies VVS plenty and certainly takes advantage of the exploit... 

 

I've been killed by him repeatedly.  He's almost always flying German.  He's killing plenty of Yaks, despite their uberness.  He does not help your cause at all.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I've been killed by him repeatedly.  He's almost always flying German.  He's killing plenty of Yaks, despite their uberness.  He does not help your cause at all.

I'm sorry, what "cause" of mine are you talking about?

 

I don't care what Mr. X flies most often because that is entirely irrelevant to my point or this thread as a whole.

 

Could you [Edited] if I said "Why would John Doe complain about something he is exploiting?" I doubt it but you're going to go on whatever little tangent you want to have regardless.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Bearcat

[BraveSirRobin]

Could you get the stick out of your ass if I said "Why would John Doe complain about something he is exploiting?" I doubt it but you're going to go on whatever little tangent you want to have regardless.

 

I'm not the one one going off on a tangent.  You were blathering on about Mr X not complaining about an exploit that he's using.  The reason he's not complaining is because he's usually killing the guys who are using the exploit.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I'm not the one one going off on a tangent.  You were blathering on about Mr X not complaining about an exploit that he's using.  The reason he's not complaining is because he's usually killing the guys who are using the exploit.

 

You keep adhering to this term "usually" and seem to remain completely dissonant to the fact that he does, in fact, use the exploit when he is flying a Yak which, I do recall since I made the statement, was the point that I was making - however, I do not apologize to you in any way, shape or form for citing Mr. X as a pilot who uses the exploit... Why would I..? He does. 

 

Would it alleviate the dissonance that you are experiencing if I generalize a little more? Why would Bobby-Sue, Jimmy-Joe, this pilot, that pilot or that other pilot, that one guy, that one other guy and that other guy's friend complain about an exploit that they use when flying the Yak?  

 

What I am gathering from your statement is that flying a 109 80% of a pilot's flight time somehow precludes that specific pilot from using a FM exploit of which that specific pilot's use of can be quantified through the videos they produce..? 

 

I am truly failing to understand where the difficulty you are having in understanding that concept is...  

Edited January 22, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[BraveSirRobin]

Would it alleviate the dissonance that you are experiencing if I generalize a little more? Why would Bobby-Sue, Jimmy-Joe, this pilot, that pilot or that other pilot, that one guy, that one other guy and that other guy's friend complain about an exploit that they use when flying the Yak?  

 

I am truly failing to understand where the difficulty you are having in understanding that concept is... 

 

The problem is that the "exploit" does not seem to prevent Mr X, or any other capable German pilot, from kicking the living crap out of any Yak that he meets when he's flying a 109.  Maybe that's why he isn't complaining?  Because it's a minor problem that will hopefully be fixed at some time.  It's not the game killing horror that some seem to believe, based on the constant commentary on the forum.  And if they don't fix it, then we'll just have to deal with it.  When they do fix it, I'm sure that someone will find some new "exploit" that is enabling Mr X to repeatedly kick his ass and it must be fixed right now or we're all doomed...

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

When they do fix it, I'm sure that someone will find some new "exploit" that is enabling Mr X to repeatedly kick his ass and it must be fixed right now or we're all doomed...

 

At least it seems we do agree about something here even with the name Mr. X aside.

 

The only point that I was making is that anybody who is using the exploit, regardless of their name, proficiency or affluence within the community are unlikely to complain as loudly, if at all, about something they can use as an advantage.

[LLv24_Zami]

The problem is that the "exploit" does not seem to prevent Mr X, or any other capable German pilot, from kicking the living crap out of any Yak that he meets when he's flying a 109.  Maybe that's why he isn't complaining?  Because it's a minor problem that will hopefully be fixed at some time.  It's not the game killing horror that some seem to believe, based on the constant commentary on the forum.  And if they don't fix it, then we'll just have to deal with it.  When they do fix it, I'm sure that someone will find some new "exploit" that is enabling Mr X to repeatedly kick his ass and it must be fixed right now or we're all doomed...

Clearly Mr X is an awesome pilot. After watching his videos there is no doubt that he can use any plane with forward facing guns to shoot a lots of people down. 

But that is irrelevant. There is something wrong about flaps and people mention it on these forums naturally. I think we all just wan`t the planes to behave as historical as possible. So leave him out of this.

[BraveSirRobin]

The only point that I was making is that anybody who is using the exploit, regardless of their name, proficiency or affluence within the community are unlikely to complain as loudly, if at all, about something they can use as an advantage.

 

Maybe for people who fly VVS all the time.  But that makes no sense for people who fly on both sides.  I think that lots of people just try to fly the planes that we have and leave the task of looking for things to complain about to others.

[Wulf]

Hmmmm .....

 

If Mr X had actually fought during the Battle of Britain, and been put in command of one of the Big Wings advocated by Leigh-Mallory; would it have been known as 'the X-Wing'?

 

Sadly, we may never know..............

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Hmmmm .....

 

If Mr X had actually fought during the Battle of Britain, and been put in command of one of the Big Wings advocated by Leigh-Mallory; would it have been known as 'the X-Wing'?

 

Sadly, we may never know..............

 

[Y-29.Silky]

So when someone claims relevant RL experience, even when taking the claim to be in good faith as I am sure 99% of them are, the general reader still has to weigh up the total evidence of who and what to believe.

I'd say 99% of the RL pilots here are like me, only fly from one airport to another, 80% of that time using autopilot and automatic rpms with a cute 150-200hp engine.

 

Who to believe - The pilots who flew in 1942 (and the 1% of the military pilots here).

 

What to believe - their word. But even they get discredited on today's forums.

 

That's the sad state of today's flight sim community.

[von_Tom]

I'd love to know what the issue is.  It's disheartening to watch a Yak behind you in clean configuration suddenly pop flaps and then have a perfect gun platform.  There's no nose wobble or anything, and you're dead and you then watch the Yak put the flaps up with no apparent energy loss.

 

Part of me was thinking that the flaps aren't actually out but it's a graphics glitch, but I don't think so.

 

All of this is anecdotal but my experience of flaps generally says that when you drop them to the same degree as in the Yak, no way is it as stable as it is in game.  It'll be very interesting to see how the devs approach this and if there is some error or it is modelled perfectly.

 

von Tom

Edited January 22, 2016 by von_Tom

[BlitzPig_EL]

The turning thing doesn't worry me so much, because I don't think any self-respecting German should engage in  'turning contests' with the Russians.  What does irritate me is the apparent ability of the Yak to quickly transition from full 'flap hover mode' to light speed.   I tend to be a bit old-fashioned cos I don't believe it should be possible for any aircraft (in this case a Yak 1) to zoom-climb up to a higher enemy in level flight, engage full flaps to prevent a stall while transitioning to level flight pursuit, then close flaps and quickly accelerate and stay with the fleeing enemy fighter.  I just don't see how that's possible, but it happens.

 

Now, I understand the concerns about Yak flaps have been fully considered and determined to be baseless, so I really don't know what's going-on.  Crazy but there it is.........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'Truth is the new hate speech'

 

In short it behaves just like the Bf 109 G2 in original IL2.

 

Odd that no "Luftwaffe" pilot ever said that was wrong with the G2.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Ok, fellas, let's stop with the personal stuff. It is childish and demeans yourselves.

 

And, again, comparing sim to sim or exploit to exploit is taking us pretty far afield of the OP.

 

Sticking to the OP, what do you think of the proposal and if you HATE it what is your solution within the parameters set? Read the OP, this is not the place to rail against the flaps per se. Get back on topic..........ready, discuss!

 

I see the DEV's, in today's DD120, may be taking another look at the flaps of some aircraft but the phrasing is a bit odd and I can't tell exactly what will be looked at.

Edited January 22, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Willy__]

HerrMurf' timestamp='1453504715' post='326687'] Sticking to the OP, what do you think of the proposal and if you HATE it what is your solution within the parameters set? Read the OP, this is not the place to rail against the flaps per se. Get back on topic..........ready, discuss!

 

I think a G-force limit would solve the issue. Meaning that, if the Yak pilot decides to pop the flaps and then fight with it and then do high G maneuveurs, the flaps would jam on that position, making impossible to retract them. No ideas how to fix the "too stable when flaps deployed" problem though... 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Herr_Istruba

[Cloyd]

Frankly, I don't really care about you several hundred or thousand MP guys and the games you play. But as an exclusively SP guy, I am REALLY pissed off that the AI Yaks are using this flaps cheat!  

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

Two questions I'd like to ask others is why do you think the devs feel the need to have the Yak's flaps perform in such a way from a game perspective? The second question that I'd also like to throw to the community is...., really, how well does a Yak-1 with undeployed flaps perform against a 109 F4 with deployed combat flaps in a consistent rate fight?

 

I only ask because of a lack of research on my own behalf and being constantly out turned by 109 F4's in my own rate fights, that was until I figured out landing flaps on the Yak. 

 

Historically the Yak-1 was a better turner but it isn't that apparent until flaps are used IMHO. It almost feels like the Yak's performance is back to front and a little bit in the middle, it's not quite right either way.

 

I think we can all agree that the Yak flight model is askew one way or another. However what I won't agree on is this whole deploy flaps for easy kill stuff, it's complete garbage and the very best BoS pilots will tell you that too. 

Edited January 23, 2016 by =69.GIAP=RADKO

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Historically the Yak-1 was a better turner but it isn't that apparent until flaps are used IMHO. . 

That is wrong. Read the russian test report about the damaged Bf-109 F-2 and you'll see they considered both about equal.

[Lusekofte]

Personally I think the 109 jockey should fly a yak, I think they will be surprised how good the 109 is when countering it. What I personally see when flying is 109 pilots bitching about sniper gunners, when it is infact me that shoot them down. It hardly go 5 minutes without a complaint from the opponent. I am now referring to my very seldom visits in WOL server.

And as other people tend to say, I have no proof about it, it is only the generally atmosphere

Edited January 24, 2016 by EG14_LuseKofte

[Fern]

I'd say 99% of the RL pilots here are like me, only fly from one airport to another, 80% of that time using autopilot and automatic rpms with a cute 150-200hp engine.

 

Who to believe - The pilots who flew in 1942 (and the 1% of the military pilots here).

 

What to believe - their word. But even they get discredited on today's forums.

 

That's the sad state of today's flight sim community.

 

Posted this back in October in your "Yakcopter or Automatic flaps? + Video" thread. Real Yak pilot says to fix it...

 

 

Subject: Yak 1 Flaps - YAK UK Ltd Contact form

 

Hi.

 

Suggest the software writer gets it right then! Split flaps reduce stall speed and increase drag. http://www.yakuk.com.../YAK11-LGA4.jpg

 

Flap limit speed approx. 135 kts from memory.

 

 

 

Best regards Mark Jefferies

http://www.yakuk.com and http://www.extraaircraft.co.uk/

Conditions of business

You should follow me on Twitter here      

 

From:

Subject: Yak 1 Flaps

Telephone:

Message Body:

 

We are having a discussion on the forums of a video game, IL2 Battle of Stalingrad, about the Flight Mechanics of the Yak-1. Apparently, people believe the Yak-1 flaps can be used for combat fighting other than landing or takeoff.

 

The problem with the game is that the Yak-1 with flaps down make it turn tighter, climb faster, and dont rip off on dives.

 

 

Thank you

 

PS: A link to the forum

http://forum.il2stur...ic-flaps-video/

Edited January 24, 2016 by Fern

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Personally I think the 109 jockey should fly a yak, I think they will be surprised how good the 109 is when countering it. What I personally see when flying is 109 pilots bitching about sniper gunners, when it is infact me that shoot them down. It hardly go 5 minutes without a complaint from the opponent. I am now referring to my very seldom visits in WOL server.

And as other people tend to say, I have no proof about it, it is only the generally atmosphere

 

Please more about those overly useful posts. They really help the cause of this discussion 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Op is a real community player! But I think his plan is not exactly there.

 

I have tested flaps on all fighters and found that there is always massive drag....

 

 

In terms of yak I don't find anything stupid.... Ima master's in aerodynamics

[LLv34_Vellu]

Personally I fly ussualy By F4 but sometimes I wanti to fly opponet planes especially with Pe2.

For me it is most important that planes are modeling historically correct by aerodynamically and technically.

If we think Yak's actions of landing flaps they work with a pneumatic system. If we suppose that system

has been developement to open about a speed under 250 km/h.

Then we mark system opening force by "F" and think what force would be in velocity 500 km/h and 750 km/h.

A air resitance can be caculated F=½pv²AC where v means the velocity.

If we suppose that in the speed 250 km/ the pneumatic system's opening force would be "F".

In the seed 500 km/h the opening force would be "4F" and in the speed the speed 750 kmh the force would be "9F".

Of cource I know that calculated a air resistance and forces is not so easy what I show but a fysically laws means

that if landing flaps are planed to open the speed 250 km/h it is impossible that they open in the 500 km/h or even more than 700 km/h.

I think easiest way to fix this bug is put a speed limit and after this limit flaps can't open.

[Dakpilot]

Personally I fly ussualy By F4 but sometimes I wanti to fly opponet planes especially with Pe2.

For me it is most important that planes are modeling historically correct by aerodynamically and technically.

If we think Yak's actions of landing flaps they work with a pneumatic system. If we suppose that system

has been developement to open about a speed under 250 km/h.

Then we mark system opening force by "F" and think what force would be in velocity 500 km/h and 750 km/h.

A air resitance can be caculated F=½pv²AC where v means the velocity.

If we suppose that in the speed 250 km/ the pneumatic system's opening force would be "F".

In the seed 500 km/h the opening force would be "4F" and in the speed the speed 750 kmh the force would be "9F".

Of cource I know that calculated a air resistance and forces is not so easy what I show but a fysically laws means

that if landing flaps are planed to open the speed 250 km/h it is impossible that they open in the 500 km/h or even more than 700 km/h.

I think easiest way to fix this bug is put a speed limit and after this limit flaps can't open.

 

That is what happens now ingame

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[303_Kwiatek]

More problem i see is with Yak-1 energy retention, stablity with flaps down.  From tested 109, Fw 190 and Yak-1 only Yak-1 could keep energy and turn better during circles then the same plane with clean config ( without flaps).  Alll other tested planes loose a lot energy and after few circles plane with clean config would outturn plane with full flaps down.

 

It was discussed some time ago

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15470-yak-1-flaps-down-arcadish-behaviour/page-2

Edited January 24, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[Sgt_Joch]

Posted this back in October in your "Yakcopter or Automatic flaps? + Video" thread. Real Yak pilot says to fix it...

actually what he says, that it increases stall speed and drag which is exactly what happens in game.

 

Garbage in=garbage out

[Sgt_Joch]

so I ran some quick tests to see what effect the flaps have on the Yak-1 climb.

 

test setup Yak-1, 50% fuel, radiator open, 100% RPM/throttle. QMB start at 1 km and start climb when planes reaches 400 km. The Yak does not have a variometer so I just eyeballed it trying to keep the same climb angle all the time.

 

test 1 stalingrad summer map, climb from 1 to 3 k

 

without flaps, 2 min 13 seconds, terminal speed 255 kmh

with flaps, 3:12 seconds, terminal speed 154 kmh

 

test 2 stalingrad autumn map, climb from 1 to 2 k

 

without flaps, 45 seconds, terminal speed 245 kmh

with flaps, 57 seconds, terminal speed 148 kmh

 

seems perfectly fine to me. The flaps generate extra drag, extra lift and increase stall speed as they are supposed to. If as some claim, there is a "bug", why don't you test it and post the results.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Sgt_Joch

[II./JG77_Manu*]

so I ran some quick tests to see what effect the flaps have on the Yak-1 climb.

 

test setup Yak-1, 50% fuel, radiator open, 100% RPM/throttle. QMB start at 1 km and start climb when planes reaches 400 km. The Yak does not have a variometer so I just eyeballed trying to keep the same climb angle all the time.

 

test 1 stalingrad summer map, climb from 1 to 3 k

 

without flaps, 2 min 13 seconds, terminal speed 255 kmh

with flaps, 3:12 seconds, terminal speed 154 kmh

 

test 2 stalingrad autumn map, climb from 1 to 2 k

 

without flaps, 45 seconds, terminal speed 245 kmh

with flaps, 57 seconds, terminal speed 148 kmh

 

seems perfectly fine to me. The flaps generate extra drag, extra lift and increase stall speed as they are supposed to. If as some claim, there is a "bug", why don't you test it and post the results.

 

i guess you didn't get at all what the problem of the flaps from the Yak is, so i say it as easy understandable for you as possible:

- turning capability

- sustained turning capability

- rolling capability

- prevent stalling even with heavy stick forces

- superior stability -->controlability of pitch and yaw even at speeds around zero /while prophanging

[Livai]

Every plane use flaps to turn better or to reduce speed! The difference is that other plane need to adjust from 0-100% compared to the Yak that adjust the flaps by airspeed. Nothing wrong here. The automatic flaps has a disadvantage is the airspeed. Slower Airspeed the flaps open to maximum where the plane should stall if he still turns and this happend below 200 km/h. But if you turn right with flaps with the Yak the speed increase somehow with maximum flaps down. Ok, I can reproduce this with a Bf-109 but not with that much flaps down compared to a yak. At the End the Yak will turn better and sharper.

[Sgt_Joch]

i guess you didn't get at all what the problem of the flaps from the Yak is, so i say it as easy understandable for you as possible:

- turning capability

- sustained turning capability

- rolling capability

- prevent stalling even with heavy stick forces

- superior stability -->controlability of pitch and yaw even at speeds around zero /while prophanging

I get that is what the "german" pilots always keep whining about, but the numbers don't show it.

 

Again, if you guys think there is a problem set up a reproducible test that we can all look at. The tools are there.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

i guess you didn't get at all what the problem of the flaps from the Yak is, so i say it as easy understandable for you as possible:

- turning capability

- sustained turning capability

- rolling capability  (shouldn't be influrenced by flap deployment)

- prevent stalling even with heavy stick forces

- superior stability -->controlability of pitch and yaw even at speeds around zero /while prophanging

Note the bolded points Manu listed. The real issue about the flaps is not simply about drag, speed or whatnot but about how it changes stall characteristics of the airplane. AoA, crit AoA, shift of center of lift, ect.....those are all important points that can change a lot in terms of flight behaviour.

 

Another point that was argued about in the FM thread was possible overmodeled prop wash efficiency (hence the "prop hanging" issue) but it's impossible to prove with only simple means.

 

Theres also the issue of stress modeling. If you put flaps out at cruise speed and initiate a 3G turn you got not only pneumatic and the outside dynamic pressure affecting flaps but also accelation forces (possitive Gs "pull" flaps out). As result flaps are under heavy stress and could either jam, bend (and eventually break) or (in case of very sturdy flap designs) damage the wing structure's integrity.

 

Edit: This gives a slight picture: https://youtu.be/q_eMQvDoDWk?t=348

Edited January 24, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I get that is what the "german" pilots always keep whining about, but the numbers don't show it.

 

Again, if you guys think there is a problem set up a reproducible test that we can all look at. The tools are there.

Don't make yourself look ridiculous. Anybody who has any idea about history, and tested the Yak against other aircraft in dogfighting knows that it's off, regardless if they are "German" or any other nationality. The Yak with flaps turns like a Zero or Chaika, that's so obviously wrong, that even the blindest fanboy should get it. 15,5s instead of 19s max it shoud be capable to turn. 

The only ones not admitting this error are the people, who fly solely red side, and are feared to loose their fishy exploit

[Dakpilot]

so I ran some quick tests to see what effect the flaps have on the Yak-1 climb.

 

test setup Yak-1, 50% fuel, radiator open, 100% RPM/throttle. QMB start at 1 km and start climb when planes reaches 400 km. The Yak does not have a variometer so I just eyeballed it trying to keep the same climb angle all the time.

 

test 1 stalingrad summer map, climb from 1 to 3 k

 

without flaps, 2 min 13 seconds, terminal speed 255 kmh

with flaps, 3:12 seconds, terminal speed 154 kmh

 

test 2 stalingrad autumn map, climb from 1 to 2 k

 

without flaps, 45 seconds, terminal speed 245 kmh

with flaps, 57 seconds, terminal speed 148 kmh

 

seems perfectly fine to me. The flaps generate extra drag, extra lift and increase stall speed as they are supposed to. If as some claim, there is a "bug", why don't you test it and post the results.

 

It is important to post these figures. It has been tested and proved many times, and yet people continue to say that Yak can climb faster with flaps down and no drag penalty

 

It is important that some people read this and accept this fact, and allow other avenues to be explored. 

 

As far as Yak superior energy retention it must be considered that Yak cannot (along with other Russian fighters ) generate as much 'G' with control surfaces as German fighter can, if both fighters are pulling max high G CFM the German fighters will always expend energy quicker when pulling  higher 'G" than Yak is able, and create more drag, increased  even more by 109 slats, when deployed.

 

Although this talks about negative G it would also pertain to positive G moves, again this is not to dismiss flap issues but is must be taken into consideration overall when talking of 'energy retention'

 

4. Fw-190 and Bf-109 is very easy to be dived to negative stall, this not allows to perform "Hartman's negative G evasive".

- Yes, German planes have more negative controlability reserve, but this just means that they are achieving the same negative G loads with less negative pitch input. I've tested negative G for several planes in very fast and rought tests (can't be used for strict compare and so on) with push dive from level flight on 400 km/h IAS, 100% fuel with standart load, G achieved before stall:

Bf 109 F-4: -4g , after that it's stalls

Bf 109 G-2: -4g , after that it's stalls

Fw 190 A-3: -3g , after that it's stalls

LaGG-3 ser.29: -1g , can't achieve more AoA and G on max pushed stick pitch and trim

La-5 ser.8: -2g , can't achieve more AoA and G on max pushed stick pitch and trim

Yak-1 ser.69: -3g , can't achieve more AoA and G on max pushed stick pitch and trim

So, no any advantage of soviet fighters in negative G load is presented in the game.

False claim

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited January 24, 2016 by Dakpilot

[Dakpilot]

Note the bolded points Manu listed. The real issue about the flaps is not simply about drag, speed or whatnot but about how it changes stall characteristics of the airplane. AoA, crit AoA, shift of center of lift, ect.....those are all important points that can change a lot in terms of flight behaviour.

 

Another point that was argued about in the FM thread was possible overmodeled prop wash efficiency (hence the "prop hanging" issue) but it's impossible to prove with only simple means.

 

Theres also the issue of stress modeling. If you put flaps out at cruise speed and initiate a 3G turn you got not only pneumatic and the outside dynamic pressure affecting flaps but also accelation forces (possitive Gs "pull" flaps out). As result flaps are under heavy stress and could either jam, bend (and eventually break) or (in case of very sturdy flap designs) damage the wing structure's integrity.

 

Edit: This gives a slight picture: https://youtu.be/q_eMQvDoDWk?t=348

 

I get the point about flaps under G having more forces on them but ailerons and rudders don't fall off in heavy G maneuvers unless there is a speed element. flaps are usually much more strongly constructed, the fact that the Yak flaps are not 'fixed' and only held by pneumatic pressure, must have an influence

 

I am not saying this is correct just more thought needs to be given

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

[303_Kwiatek]

Thought was given in topic i linked. Yak has the lowest impact in drag penalty and energy loosing during turning. All other planes loose much more and clean config or just small flaps are more efficent in turn but full flaps are not efficent. Only yak got high benefis at full flaps. Thats why yak with full flaps outurn easly yak with clean config where all other planes are opposite

Edited January 24, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[Ace_Pilto]

I get the point about flaps under G having more forces on them but ailerons and rudders don't fall off in heavy G maneuvers unless there is a speed element. flaps are usually much more strongly constructed, the fact that the Yak flaps are not 'fixed' and only held by pneumatic pressure, must have an influence

 

I am not saying this is correct just more thought needs to be given

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

 

Well, personally I'm talking about jamming the flap system through misuse via sudden compression of gasses in the system causing blow outs or some kind of similar failure which is typical, not having them torn away. 

 

It's possible for an entire wing to detach under high G and that is typically stronger than the flaps don't you agree?

 

Control surfaces also have more "give" than flaps under G (unless superman is at the controls). 

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

Thought was given in topic i linked. Yak has the lowest impact in drag penalty and energy loosing during turning. All other planes loose much more and clean config or just small flaps are more efficent in turn but full flaps are not efficent. Only yak got high benefis at full flaps. Thats why yak with full flaps outurn easly yak with clean config where all other planes are opposite

 

I think you'll find most of us will agree with you on that one! You've hit the nail on the head. I like how some of our comrades are going out and doing tests, nice job!

Edited January 24, 2016 by =69.GIAP=RADKO