How important is it to have a FFB controller ?

[Guest deleted@50488]

Guys,

 

I have tried to find one allover the World, but those I found are either too far apart from where I usually live, or too expensive, or are partially broken, so...

 

But I have started a similar thread at the forum of my other flight simulator, because both can apparently give their users a better experience when used with such hardware.

 

To give an idea of what I would like to know if differs from using or not a FFB device, I wonder if, for instance, the pre-stall buffet that I can feel in the other simulator when my Bf 109 slats deploy and I approach critical AoA, and users of il-2 describe as creating intense shaking on their joysticks translates to that buffet too in this sim ?

 

Let's say I am in a G2, enter the pre-stall region in accelerated or slow flight, the slats deploy... Presently in il-2 I do not have much hint of stall buffeting, while in the other sim it shakes considerably giving good sign of the critical AoA being approached. Now, some users have posted that in IL2 their sticks ( FFB ) also start to shake under such circumstances and I wonder if that shaking translates to the visual shaking in the sim, and the pre-stall buffet can then be visually recognized as well ?

 

And, should any of you be able to point me to any good source for used MS FFB joysticks, or any other suggestion, please do :-)

[Dakpilot]

This guy in Germany is well known for rebuilding MS joysticks

 

http://www.ebay.com/usr/mdalkowski?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

 

maybe contacting him will be some use

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[J2_Trupobaw]

It is important in Digital Nature sims. When my FFB2 broke year ago, I was unable to fly RoF and BoS - the feel of connection with plane was gone, it took all pleasure out of flight. To me, switching to springstick in BOS it was like eating with clogged nose - making the mechanical moves with stick without feeling what I'm doing. Riding the edge of stall by screen shaking rather than feeling what's wrong was limiting, too. I have switched to sims that don't have good FFB support, or none at all, for these three months.

 

 

This guy in Germany is well known for rebuilding MS joysticks

 

http://www.ebay.com/usr/mdalkowski?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

 

maybe contacting him will be some use

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

The stick that broke up on me was bought from him. Not saying you shouldn't buy from him, but don't stop looking for opportunities and get a spare stick if you see one. I've found since that best source in Europe are retiring community members getting rid of their backup sticks .

Edited January 10, 2016 by Trupobaw

[Guest deleted@50488]

Thx Trupobaw,

 

your comments really important!!!

[Dakpilot]

It is a real shame that FFB is not more common, a lot was to do with patents, I understood that MSFFB was dropped at around the time of these issues

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/microsoft-settles-force-feedback-lawsuit/1100-6072673/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_v._Sony

 

Even today Driving sims peripherals still suffer from hangover from licencing, with FFB wheels having to have very complicated (and expensive) licencing deals worked out

 

With driving sims selling million times more units than Combat flight sims, modern FFB wheels are incredibly sophisticated, notwithstanding the huge cost in licencing fees to manufacture a product

 

One could only imagine what we could have today if flight sticks had kept up with wheel tech, however without the market...., game devs are also reluctant to put large amount of work into supporting FFB considering all available products are now very old and nothing new is produced

 

consider that in a modern driving game there are more than 15 sliders to adjust  force feedback on a fairly budget FFB wheel

 

My MSFFB2 is beginning to feel its age, did I feel a very slight 'clunk' the other day...or is it my imagination.. ...touch wood!

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Matt]

I basically bought a FFB2 especially for RoF. Then i got a Warthog a few years back and used it since then, because all those buttons and hats become really handy, even more so in BoS. But i've recently moved back to the FFB2. I'm still thinking about modifying my Warthog for FFB (some guy on  the ED forums did that, by using two FFB2 sticks), but i don't think i'll ever find time to do that.

 

As of right now, i would not fly BoS or RoF without a FFB stick.

[Sokol1]

I am one that give up of FFB stick - have owned MS FFB PRO and FFB2 USB - because this kind of stick dont improve, rather hurt,

the main purpose of WWII Combat Flight Sim/Game: put the gunsight crosshair over enemy.

 

But for one that consider more important "the feels" is a mandatory gadjet.

Highly probable the "Swan Song" of FFB stick was the failed Logitech G-940, that have improvements over MS ones,

like HALL sensor in X, Y and ball bearings in gimbal, but the "save" on wiring and potentiometers "kill" then for the market.

[SharpeXB]

Highly probable the "Swan Song" of FFB stick was the failed Logitech G-940, that have improvements over MS ones,

like HALL sensor in X, Y and ball bearings in gimbal, but the "save" on wiring and potentiometers "kill" then for the market.

 

I tried the G940 a few years ago. I didn't like it and ended up returning it. Maybe it was defective? But the FFB just felt like stirring a bucket of rocks with a stick and there was a dead zone of force around the middle. Bottom line it felt like a joystick with cheap little electric motors pushing on it constantly. Realistic or not, I felt it would be impossible to aim at anything with it.

The other problem with the G940 was that it was all linked together as a single unit so I would have to ditch my CH pedals or if you just wanted part of it like the stick I don't think there was a way to unhook it. Maybe there was some calibration or setup that I missed but it didn't feel good at all to use.

[DD_Arthur]

@jcomm;

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Microsoft-SideWinder-Force-Feedback-2-656-00105-Joysticks/262230531048?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3Da35098d5fd244c85a4616442332617d0%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D331747645026#shpCntId

 

Still a lot of these sticks on ebay in the UK.  Looks like this one will post to Portugal.

 

The only ffb stick worth having

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I threw my perfectly working FFB 2 in the bin

 

 

Being a minimalist is not good 

[DD_Arthur]

WUT!

[JG5_Schuck]

Well,

Its not that important, but I couldn't do without mine.

So much so I brought a spare!

[Dutch2]

I do not play that much non FFB flysims, but if running WoFF that does not have FFB support for the MS-FF2, missing that FFB feels exact what Trupobaw already describes. 

[VR-DriftaholiC]

Can't fly without it. I have a warthog and a g940. I use the warthog throttle and the g940 stick  Warthog only gets used for space sims at the moment

Edited January 10, 2016 by driftaholic

[=LD=Penshoon]

For me I couldn't fly without it! Stiffness and position of the stick gives me constant speed and attitude feedback that helps me judge how much rudder are needed to point the nose straight into the wind. Without it I would constantly have to watch the slip indicator and speed dial to fly smoothly instead of doing it by feel alone. 

 

You get a pre stall buffet in most planes that starts as a small rumble that intensifies the more you pull. If you are stalling during a climb the ailerons get looser and looser as speed drops making it easier and easier to deflect the stick to the right or left to fight the torque and at the same time telling you you need to apply similar amount of rudder to keep it from stalling. The 109 slats have no effect when they deploy or retract but in the 110 you'll feel a good thump every time they go in & out. 

 

 

[HippyDruid]

I have both the G940 and the MSFFB2 which the latter I purchased on ebay 2nd(3rd??) hand pretty cheap here in Oz.

The G940 is certainly the stronger and more accurate of the two. However the strength in the MSFFB2 has probably waned over the years.

 

Regarding the difference in accuracy, I think this is fairly arbitrary really when you consider the length of both sticks is pretty much the standard for a desktop joystick. The G940 is slightly longer.

So when I say more accurate. I guess the G940 is, when you're looking at axes moving in the calibration screen.

 

Sokol1 mentioned, regarding it hurting, when coming to put the sight on the target. I totally agree here!

 

I am pretty certain if I owned a non-FFB-Hallsensor-joystick I would likely be a better shot, as the FFB can -not so much jolt- nudge your aim from time to time.

I have found that with both RoF and BoS I tend to 'lean' on the forces and use them to steady the shot instead. This is especially good for planes with pitch trim as you can adjust that point where you are leaning on the force from the stick.

It's fun and it feels immersive for me. (I've never flown a real aircraft!)

If I wanted to join the e-sport-IL2-Olympics I would use snap views and a non-FFB joystick with a hallsensor. Although I'm most likely not a Gold Medalist. 

 

The FFB stall buffeting is extremely well done in both RoF and BoS. Trupobaw mentioned 'riding the edge of the stall'. I think that pretty much sums it up. As that's exactly what you can do!

 

If you can get hold of one, it sounds to me like you will really appreciate it.

 

Edited January 11, 2016 by HippyDruid

[Sokol1]

JCOMM,

 

Take a look, the price is good - if the international shipping is acceptable. 

 

http://www.gavca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23800&sid=ae6072f1cd38ce9db37b3e71c94894a9

 

The guy discover that the "Force" is beyond the "Feedback". 

Edited January 12, 2016 by Sokol1

[J2_Trupobaw]

Speaking of force feedback, what's the deal with Thrustmaster FFB stick? It is listed as their product on TM page, but it isn't sold anywhere I can find and I've never heard of anyone using it. Do you know how good is/was it, and what happened to it?

 

http://www.thrustmaster.com/products/force-feedback-joystick
 

[DD_Arthur]

Thats a Guillemot ffb stick rebranded by Thrustmaster.  Weird.  That must be about ten years old!!  The Guillemot was a pretty good effort.  Just not as good as Microsofts offering.

[VR-DriftaholiC]

I would give my left testicle for a modern FFB stick.

[J2_Trupobaw]

I am one that give up of FFB stick - have owned MS FFB PRO and FFB2 USB - because this kind of stick dont improve, rather hurt,

the main purpose of WWII Combat Flight Sim/Game: put the gunsight crosshair over enemy.

 

But for one that consider more important "the feels" is a mandatory gadjet.

 

A late comment from me on that; yes, FFB stick makes getting (and holding) your target in crosshairs harder, but makes winning energy fights (and getting yourself in position where you can start thinking of getting your crosshairs on him, while preventing him from doing the same) much easier for me. Perhaps I'm just a bad pilot who needs FFB to not fly against his own plane where instrument would suffice, and FFB just develops bad habits. Or people grow out of it as they get more competent, like Sokol did. (Then again, I fly mostly RoF, so what instruments?).

Edited January 14, 2016 by Trupobaw

[SCG_Neun]

I like the stiffness of the FFB which actually helps me put the cross hairs on the target a lot better than my CH Fighter Stick which was just too sensitive...even when I dialed in the correct settings.  I would think flying a WWII fighter would be more realistically modeled with the FFB than what appears to be overly sensitive characteristics  of  my old stick...which was comparable to flying the lunar space module.  Only thing.....I've tweaked this FFB and it's somewhat unpredictable within BOS....sometimes it's very responsive...and sometimes it just doesn't "wake up"....

[SYN_Vorlander]

I would give my left testicle for a modern FFB stick.

That should hurt. All that pain for FFB?

Edited January 22, 2016 by SYN_Vorlander

[VR-DriftaholiC]

That should hurt. All that pain for FFB?

I imagine a procedure with drugs involved, or at least much alcohol 

[Bando]

I would not want to be around when that hangover kicks in.

 

I do agree a modern day FFB stick would be worth some balls, but not mine, I hope......

[Dakpilot]

Some FFB improvements planned in latest DD 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[=LD=Penshoon]

Yeah, good to know they haven't forgotten our old sticks yet