How to effectively discourage people from flying Ground Attackers in MP Servers

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Are they really? On which servers?

 

Because I've looked at mission made (not for DED) but others and that is simply not true,.....either way your not quoting my entire post so it's not really a discussion is it?

 

See second page, one of the first posts. It was on DED Random Expert.

 

Probably once the damage model is fine-tuned you guys should see some better results with the current AAA settings. Then it'll be up to the VVS to sort you buzzards out

 

An anecdote from a different time, I remember Flaming Cliffs had this 'Cold War gone hot' campaign for the Su-25, and boy what a slaughter it was! You could fly there with 8+ attack aircraft and one by one the few AA guns there would obliterate 60-80% of us, even using correct tactics. Even worse was when the SEAD flight was taken out by the SAM sites before it could finish them off. I remember I only made it all the way home in two of the missions there, during all the others I had to divert to nearby airfields because my hydraulics were all over the place, an engine (or two!) had failed or I didn't have enough fuel for the haul over the mountains.

[Sokol1]

Are they really? On which servers?

 

Because I've looked at mission made (not for DED) but others and that is simply not true,.....either way your not quoting my entire post so it's not really a discussion is it?

 

Simple, I record a track in DED Random  (this thread is complain about that server settings) and open the mission file (stored with the track) in ME. Do the same...  

Edited January 10, 2016 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

 

 

6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann,

Sokol1... In Mission Editor the AI skill for FLAK  is Low, Normal, High and can't discriminate planes types.

The Aircraft discriminate against the AAA, since it is effective against low slow and ineffective against fast and low aircraft.

 

 

Well a credible "discrimination" no? As low and slow aircraft are easy targets. 

 

But you asked for AAA discriminate between attackers/bombers and fighters:

 

"The AAA should have an efficiency of maybe 5-10% per attack against slow flying attackers and bombers and very little against fighters."

 

Put simple, the ME (Mission Editor) don't have this option, as don't have option to set "efficiency %".

 

Is only LOW, MEDIUM and HIGHT, see in the picture. The same for the command "Attack Area" that manage AAA:

 

 

People complain against the mission makers due game engine AAA behavior is solution? What they can do?

Ask for dev's implement this more sophisticated AAA controls - as well a "fireworks" mode, like that "ambience" FLAK of EA first days.   

 

So people can do attack run "like in movies".   

 

 

 

 

[No601_Swallow]

As Sokol clearly says, the AI adjustments for flak are quite flexible. The AI has a skill level and in addition the MCU (an element that contols unit behaviour) that dictates how the flak behaves has an "urgency" rating ("priority").  There is no problem making each individual gun emplacement have different skill levels or priorities. The mission builder can also easily build in delays in how long it takes the AI to open fire and indeed how long the AI will continue to fire. 

 

This whole thread in all honesty really ought to be in the "servers" forum, or with the ME forum, so people can discuss issues related to how the DED boys build their missions. I don't think there's anything wrong with the "game engine". It seems to me to be more flexible and realistic than most other sims I've used.

 

As far as "fireworks" are concerned, I regularly put in (mostly) harmless flak in my missions to1) give some atmosphere and 2) help players spot enemies (and indeed nearby ground targets). "Real flak", though, will be merciless, naturally!

 

Honestly, I think everyone would be better off if there was a surge in squadron recruitment and people started flying more as teams, with their own missions and their own servers. In my humble opinion.

Edited January 10, 2016 by No601_Swallow

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

As Sokol clearly says, the AI adjustments for flak are quite flexible. The AI has a skill level and in addition the MCU (an element that contols unit behaviour) that dictates how the flak behaves has an "urgency" rating ("priority").  There is no problem making each individual gun emplacement have different skill levels or priorities. The mission builder can also easily build in delays in how long it takes the AI to open fire and indeed how long the AI will continue to fire. 

 

This whole thread in all honesty really ought to be in the "servers" forum, or with the ME forum, so people can discuss issues related to how the DED boys build their missions. I don't think there's anything wrong with the "game engine". It seems to me to be more flexible and realistic than most other sims I've used.

 

As far as "fireworks" are concerned, I regularly put in (mostly) harmless flak in my missions to1) give some atmosphere and 2) help players spot enemies (and indeed nearby ground targets). "Real flak", though, will be merciless, naturally!

 

Honestly, I think everyone would be better off if there was a surge in squadron recruitment and people started flying more as teams, with their own missions and their own servers. In my humble opinion.We

Right now we are flying as a squad.

 

I think the problem is an association of the 110's glass wing and the high level of efficiency of AAA. Because usually 110s come back home single engine but not single wing

 

Other strange phenomenon that ground attackers face is that AAA tracers are quite invisible when they are shoting at you.  You can see tracers for miles when you are not the target.

If you got winter map they are impossible to see and avoid.

 

A muzzle flash could help too like on old IL2 if it is historical.

 

 

Anyway, we can try to improve things saying our impressions but the only way to control those factors is to setting up our own server and missions.

[Sokol1]

"The loss of IL-2 anti-aircraft (for) artillery fire every year of the war has steadily increased, and the loss of fighters, on the contrary, decreased while increasing the number of sorties.

Excess loss of IL-2 by anti-aircraft fire over the losses of the enemy fighters reached 2.5-4.5 - according to the specific conditions of operations. 

At the same time the total combat losses IL-2 remained almost at the same level."

 

IRL, more than "Hartman's" the FLAK shoot down the il-2's.

[Sokol1]

 

 There is no problem making each individual gun emplacement have different skill levels or priorities. The mission builder can also easily build in delays in how long it takes the AI to open fire and indeed how long the AI will continue to fire. 

 

This whole thread in all honesty really ought to be in the "servers" forum, or with the ME forum, so people can discuss issues related to how the DED boys build their missions. I don't think there's anything wrong with the "game engine". 

 

At least one mission in that server are using LOW and MEDIUM AAA around targets.

As people keeps telling through the thread: "ACE AAA", "sniper FLAK"... is need dev's "fix" the engine introducing new modes:

AAA fireworks harmless, AAA ultra-low (1% probability to hit a plane at 200 meters).  

 

But seems the root of the problem is more the wing material of the preferred plane than FLAK skill or mission maker "craziness", see in Q&A thread. 

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

At least one mission in that server are using LOW and MEDIUM AAA around targets.

As people keeps telling through the thread: "ACE AAA", "sniper FLAK"... is need dev's "fix" the engine introducing new modes:

AAA fireworks harmless, AAA ultra-low (1% probability to hit a plane at 200 meters).  

 

But seems the root of the problem is more the wing material of the preferred plane than FLAK skill or mission maker "craziness", see in Q&A thread. 

Glass wing is only evident because AAA very high accuracy. 

[Lusekofte]

In my point of view, mind you I almost always fly PE 2 . I like the AAA in this game. They might be snipers, but that is a excellent way to simulate many more AAA without making the game slower.

Attacking Airfields should be deadly, if I do I level bomb . Same with factories if they are not obscured by clouds

[Dakpilot]

From many recent topics/posts what seems to be needed is a server where no-one gets shot down...FSX anyone?

 

(humour)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Jade_Monkey]

Since People tend to read comments more often when quoted, I repeat your point. I liked Fighting Legends a lot as well. 

Large Targets are the way to go. I don't like castrating the JaBo guys. it feels wrong. 

 

 

WHat happened to Fighting Legends anyways?

 

It was my favorite server, with massive concentrations in the targets, but very well done.

[-DED-Rapidus]

Ded's boys redesigned field Aaa

This time we are using "cluster" triangle style

Edited January 15, 2016 by -DED-Rapidus

[Sokol1]

Meanwhile in DED Random, a lone Pe-2 dare the "Ace" and "Sniper" 88 batteries around target. 

 

Edited January 16, 2016 by Sokol1

[Willy__]

 

 

Meanwhile in DED Random, a lone Pe-2 dare the "Ace" and "Sniper" 88 batteries around target.

 

German AAA working as it always did. So useless.... 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

If you are gonna do it, do it right. I use Dart's methods to good effect. The main thing is to keep the guns moving through both the vertical and horizontal plane as much as possible until you are lined up. Hit it quick and then get all of his buddy's guns moving through both planes again as soon as possible. I usually hit two, extend and then set it up again. Never fly straight for more than a couple of seconds around AAA. Lots of parabolas in three dimensions.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDEnVCX20iU

Edited January 17, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Sokol1]

German AAA working as it always did. So useless.... 

 

 

[Asgar]

How to limit the vulching everybody complains about:

 

1. Set AAA to Ace Level

2. Limit Number of available aircraft per Pilot.

limit vulching by putting ultra vassili zaitsev AAA at every bomb target? ... that's a stupid argument

 

 

WHat happened to Fighting Legends anyways?

 

It was my favorite server, with massive concentrations in the targets, but very well done.

 

they took the server down, they said because it was too expensive...one week after getting a new and better server and 20 people offering financial support^^..so yeah, we don't know the real reason. 

Edited January 16, 2016 by I./JG3_Asgar

[Sokol1]

limit vulching by putting ultra vassili zaitsev AAA at every bomb target? ... that's a stupid argument

 

The definition of "Vulching" don't mean strafe planes in their home base? What "every target" have to this? 

[Willy__]

 

 

I never mentioned the level of the AAA. I only mentioned that german AAA is useless, as always. Try doing that against russian AAA.

 

[Sokol1]

OK, German and Russian AAA are set in the same way in ME (is only thing that mission makers can adjust - the OP point), but the German don't work... so are "bugged" in game code? 

Edited January 16, 2016 by Sokol1

[Requiem]

One thing I used for Rise of Flight in missions I made was to make "low" accuracy AA but have it fire at 10 times the normal rate, so that way you have one AA gun simulating ten of them. It makes for some impressive fireworks

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

limit vulching by putting ultra vassili zaitsev AAA at every bomb target? ... that's a stupid argument

 

 

 

they took the server down, they said because it was too expensive...one week after getting a new and better server and 20 people offering financial support^^..so yeah, we don't know the real reason. 

 

It was incredibly stupid of you to assume that I was arguing with or making an argument for anything.

 

What a stupid argument.

 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

There will never be a clear solution involving AAA as long as it's ai logic remains bugged as it is. As soon as multiple enemies show up at once aaa is getting confused and sometimes doesn't fire at all, into the ground or at empty airspace where an enemy aircraft had been, for several minutes.

 

Best "solution" in my opinionn would be an ai fighter trigger activated whenever enemy aircraft penetrate an airfield area. That also provides attackers more targets and leaves human aircrat with higher chances of survival.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Sokol1]

.... german AAA is useless, as always. Try doing that against russian AAA.

 

 

 

Why not?

 

The mission file are already there, just need replace the FLAK batteries (52K) and the plane (He111):

 

 

The result are the same, to be fair the Russian FLAK seems more lazy to react to the plane... but maybe impression... 

 

BTW - In the mission in MP the (2) 37mm FLAK around the target has bee destroyed, what make all difference for low level attacker. 

[ACG_daffy_]

Well, everyone is always talking about 'realism' and 'immersion'.  Well...How many single-plane formations do you think REALLY left base at the time?  The pilots didn't go and sit down at a table, push some buttons and pull their joystick in front of them before clicking the 'fly' button.  

 

The ground attack aircraft were much more valuable in the War to all sides.  Their missions were absolutely critical, and weighed heavier in importance to any fighter wings mission.  In fact, in a lot of the fighter missions, the role was to...protect the ground attackers...

 

This is an argument that we've been throwing around in the forums since 1998, when CFS players first began to complain about airfield camping.  (Vulching).  It sucks to be blown up on the runway, and it's frustrating as hell when someone is up there picking you and your buddies off like a bunch of cherries on a tree...but that's war.  Sooner or later, they'll run out of fuel, or get shot down.  Or, maybe you and your buddies will get a couple of birds off the ground and chase him off.  Then, go do it to his field...because if it were 'real', or 'immersive'...then you better believe we would all be taking every advantage we could to kill them before they even got off the ground.  Chivalry was left behind at about 200 horsepower, and wing cannons.  The best dog-fight is the one that you never have to get into, and frankly, realistically, I would rather drop an enemy before he even ever knew I was there.  If you have to dog fight...then you did something wrong.  (At least, that's what the Aces all say, I suck really, and usually get blown up before I can get a round off lol)

 

The best thing to do, to keep the genre alive and everyone having fun...is to find good teammates, fly together, support all the missions around you and just laugh and have fun.  Everyone complains about the ground attackers...but nobody ever watches their backs up there.  That IL2's mission is much more effective to the teams winning than any of the fighters are.  

S!

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It sucks to be blown up on the runway, and it's frustrating as hell when someone is up there picking you and your buddies off like a bunch of cherries on a tree...but that's war. 

This is a game (sim), not war. Games are supposed to be fun and entertaining, war is not.

 

If it was, nobody would ever like it.

[3instein]

This is a game (sim), not war. Games are supposed to be fun and entertaining, war is not.

 

If it was, nobody would ever like it.

Exactly. The folk that hang around vulching, shooting folk as they try to take off are guaranteed to be the ones who spawn camp on other games, they know they are doing it and that it pisses folk off but that is where they get their kicks from, not from playing the actual game.

 

They do realise it is frowned upon but they will not give a damn, but don't blame them for it is their nature and most of them will probably be ass hats in real life.

 

Mick. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Agreed, they are the airborne version of the internet troll. They take joy in being insufferable. Just spawn somewhere else because, for the most part, they are low skill, hand around much longer than is prudent and easy to bounce.

 

*you said asshat

[BSS_Sniper]

how to turn a server into a airquake real fast, DED expert server did.

 

Unless the bases are far apart AND part of the mission, vulching shouldn't be happening. People will blather on about how it's war or how it really happened. When it did happen IRL, they weren't hanging out over the base. They made a pass and were gone. It really does ruin the emersion and is too War Thunder'ish...

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Unless the bases are far apart AND part of the mission, vulching shouldn't be happening. People will blather on about how it's war or how it really happened. When it did happen IRL, they weren't hanging out over the base. They made a pass and were gone. It really does ruin the emersion and is too War Thunder'ish...

I always defended this point. Bases are too close to each other. 

 

It soo cool when you fly a coop mission event and you have to navigate and cruise for 30 minutes before reaching frontline.

 

If bases were away from front line we would see a decrease on lone vulchers stats whore because a single bullet on radiator would make them belly landing and being captured before reaching friend lines.

Zero points will help to avoid vulchers.  Coordinated airfield attacks with squadrons is a different story and shloud happens.

 

GPS off of course 

Edited January 20, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Gielow

[Guest deleted@103832]

Here's another way to discourage Axis people from flying ground attack aircraft: This morning the wife took the kid shopping so I got a chance to log on to WoL without getting any stinkeye around the house. I saw there were roughly 40 players on each side and the Axis had one objective left, a RR station just inside the enemy lines, and the Allies had three objectives remaining. I grabbed a Stuka and approached the objective at 3k. I didn't ask for fighter cover because it was the last objective and I assumed (BIG mistake) that there would be at least a few of our fighters over that objective. On approach I saw lots of fighter aircraft - all enemy. The Stuka flying 2k to the north of me was smoked before getting to the objective. I dove down with two fighters on my ass and hit buildings that were already destroyed because it was impossible to make any distinctions with all the jinking and turning required just to survive long enough to drop a bomb. As soon as I leveled out my plane was destroyed by the fighters before I could even cover the short 1km back to friendly lines. I don't like that shit. Getting shot down is part of the game but the sad fact is nine times out of ten Axis bombers and attackers are on their own. Upon review of the video I noted FIVE enemy fighters covering that final objective and ZERO Axis fighters. It was the final objective, there were forty of us. EVERYBODY should have been over that objective. At the end of the video following my crash and burn the five enemy fighters were climbing to meet a lone Ju 88 approaching the objective - not hard to guess what happened to him... For Axis fighters, with a few notable exceptions, WoL appears to be just a larger Berloga Dogfight server. When I ask for fighter cover well in advance, with current position, alt, and direction, I get a response about one time in ten. I don't even attempt to ask for ingress/egress escort because that would asking WAY too much, right? In approximately 250 WoL sorties I can count on one hand how many times I've seen anyone offering to cover bombers. It's more like art students playing paintball than anything resembling a military effort. I've watched a few dedicated bomber pilots log on to WoL and if there are more than 20 enemy players or only a few high-risk targets left on the board, they log out within a minute and come back later at the beginning of the next board - and who can fucking blame them? Here's what our final objective looked like with a 40-strong Luftwaffe:

 

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by deleted@103832

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

Here's another way to discourage Axis people from flying ground attack aircraft: This morning the wife took the kid shopping so I got a chance to log on to WoL without getting any stinkeye around the house. I saw there were roughly 40 players on each side and the Axis had one objective left, a RR station just inside the enemy lines, and the Allies had three objectives remaining. I grabbed a Stuka and approached the objective at 3k. I didn't ask for fighter cover because it was the last objective and I assumed (BIG mistake) that there would be at least a few of our fighters over that objective. On approach I saw lots of fighter aircraft - all enemy. The Stuka flying 2k to the north of me was smoked before getting to the objective. I dove down with two fighters on my ass and hit buildings that were already destroyed because it was impossible to make any distinctions with all the jinking and turning required just to survive long enough to drop a bomb. As soon as I leveled out my plane was destroyed by the fighters before I could even cover the short 1km back to friendly lines. I don't like that shit. Getting shot down is part of the game but the sad fact is nine times out of ten Axis bombers and attackers are on their own. Upon review of the video I noted FIVE enemy fighters covering that final objective and ZERO Axis fighters. It was the final objective, there were forty of us. EVERYBODY should have been over that objective. At the end of the video following my crash and burn the five enemy fighters were climbing to meet a lone Ju 88 approaching the objective - not hard to guess what happened to him... For Axis fighters, with a few notable exceptions, WoL appears to be just a larger Berloga Dogfight server. When I ask for fighter cover well in advance, with current position, alt, and direction, I get a response about one time in ten. I don't even attempt to ask for ingress/egress escort because that would asking WAY too much, right? In approximately 250 WoL sorties I can count on one hand how many times I've seen anyone offering to cover bombers. It's more like art students playing paintball than anything resembling a military effort. I've watched a few dedicated bomber pilots log on to WoL and if there are more than 20 enemy players or only a few high-risk targets left on the board, they log out within a minute and come back later at the beginning of the next board - and who can fucking blame them? Here's what our final objective looked like with a 40-strong Luftwaffe:

 

 

The Ju88 should have been able to out run the fighters with a shallow dive,I like playing with the Yaks in my JU88,I dive in on them like a fighter give my gunners a good shot at them then make a shallow climb away,repeat. If it gets in a tight fight I'll drop the flaps and throttle back one engine to turn tighter till allies can pick them off of me. As for coving Stukas I always try to fly with them even if they don't ask for my help many times I'll put my self in to hopeless fights to save the Stukas so they can make the target. My best is diving in on 7 Russian Fighters I held my own till I saw the bombs explode then I let the inevitable happen . Edited September 12, 2016 by II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33

[Feathered_IV]

I noticed Goering had similar complaints about his own fighter pilots.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'm just curious why you wouldn't call for cover at take off and just assumed cover would be over the target.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I'm just curious why you wouldn't call for cover at take off and just assumed cover would be over the target.

Because all the Germans are Unfocssed Wannabe Hartmann Skynight Bunglers. They are most likely unaware of the Existence of Ground Targets, that's what I genuinely believe. They most likely don't know that there are Maps and Objectives to win. They are like Aimless Houseflies. 

 

 

Wings of Liberty is a Dogfight Server like Berolga and the DED Normal ones. Just in a thin cloak of realism. Planes are worth Nothing, Lives are worth Nothing, Distances are Short and GPS is basically a Noob Crutch, a Noob-Guidance System. 

This means you don't have to care what you do, if you die, you jump in the Next Plane and go again. 

 

I don't get why you would expect people to play serious at all. Hell, all I do once the Server reaches 60 players is Spawnbomb the Bigger Side with 88s or Pe-2s from 5k. It's the safest way to get a ton of kills, with little effort or Risk. 

I have accepted the Lawlessness and Douchebaggery of WoL and now Embrace it. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Asgar]

yep. WoL is a chicken shoot. Hope we get the ZG26 coop up and running again in the future

[bzc3lk]

 They are like Aimless Houseflies. 

 

[Feathered_IV]

... For Axis fighters... It's more like art students playing paintball than anything resembling a military effort.

 

 

 

Oh my God.  That description is surgically precise. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Because all the Germans are Unfocssed Wannabe Hartmann Skynight Bunglers. They are most likely unaware of the Existence of Ground Targets, that's what I genuinely believe. They most likely don't know that there are Maps and Objectives to win. They are like Aimless Houseflies. 

 

 

Wings of Liberty is a Dogfight Server like Berolga and the DED Normal ones. Just in a thin cloak of realism. Planes are worth Nothing, Lives are worth Nothing, Distances are Short and GPS is basically a Noob Crutch, a Noob-Guidance System. 

This means you don't have to care what you do, if you die, you jump in the Next Plane and go again. 

 

I don't get why you would expect people to play serious at all. Hell, all I do once the Server reaches 60 players is Spawnbomb the Bigger Side with 88s or Pe-2s from 5k. It's the safest way to get a ton of kills, with little effort or Risk. 

I have accepted the Lawlessness and Douchebaggery of WoL and now Embrace it. 

So all people are evil and/or stupid? There must be at least one decent fellow out there. ONE? There must be at least a couple if there was only ONE objective remaining. See the irony? (Yes, I know the actual definition. I am using the common, if somewhat incorrect, vernacular.)

 

Make the radio call prior to take off and that one shining knight of a soul surely would have answered. Especially if you know they are all out there galavanting about. Otherwise, it's as much your fault as theirs for taking off with that knowledge.

Edited September 12, 2016 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[wtornado]

Usually when I am up high in my HE-111 going to target and a 109 sees me they usually follow me to target.