How to effectively discourage people from flying Ground Attackers in MP Servers

[Sokol1]

Inspired by this thread I join in DED Random do to attack mission with iL-2 last night.

 

First target, a German artillery battery, no AAA, easily finished be two iL-2. RTB.

 

After no target visible on map, did a armed RECON deep in enemy territory, find two targets

maybe a fuel storage and near a bridge and some buildings near, attack as the mission are running time out.

No AAA noticed in this area... It would be more fun if he had any, I don't like a "gamey" war. 

 

OK.I recorded a track of the last flight and now looking in the mission file in ME, and at moment I only see FLAK around target areas set on LOW or NORMAL in German and Russian side. If I find one in  ACE "sniper" I post a screenshot. 

 

Around a German airfield the AAA is MG-34 and Flak 38, all with AI set on HIGH. 

 

 

If in a give side the FLAK is "biased" this is in the game engine, not mission related.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Sokol1

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

I think us 80's gamers need to start slinging the old internet slangs around again, just so the youngins don't understand us? lol

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The only server I really think got ground targets right is (was) the Fighting Legends. Instead of small, cramped areas there were big factory complexes that literally require 5-6 Heinkels to wipe out in one pass or suuply depots mostly the size of an entire airfield. Even though you had plenty of light targets around a single fighter or even small fighter force had no chance detsroying the whole target given the huge area it was streched.

 

Also their ground targets were semi-persident, means you didn't have to detsroy every single building or ground unit to take out a target but just deal a certain ammount of damage by destroying whatever stuff within the target area.

 

Their AAA was pretty dangerous at times as well but no fun killer. Also I think they respawned over time once taken out so there was no need for numerous Flak emplacements to guard a objective threwout the match.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The only server I really think got ground targets right is (was) the Fighting Legends. Instead of small, cramped areas there're big factory complexes that literally require 5-6 Heinkels to wipe out in one pass or suuply depots mostly the size of an entire airfield. Even though you had plenty of light targets around a single fighter or even small fighter force had no chance detsroying the whole target given the huge are it was streched.

 

Also they're ground targets were semi-persident, means you didn't have to detsroy every single building or ground unit to take out a target but just deal a certain ammount of damage by destroying whatever stuff within the target area.

 

Their AAA was pretty dangerous at times as well but no fun killer. Also I think they respawned over time once taken out so there was no need for numerous Flak emplacements to guard a objective threwout the match.

Since People tend to read comments more often when quoted, I repeat your point. I liked Fighting Legends a lot as well. 

Large Targets are the way to go. I don't like castrating the JaBo guys. it feels wrong. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Hoots]

I never noticed the flak being horrendously accurate but I think the reason is I only ever do one pass at a defended target. In with the throttles wide open, drop the bombs, run like mad, head home and repeat. So I'm quite happy with it, cracking server.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Lucas, would you share the link to the IL2 losses you posted in #19?

 

Thanks

 

It's not to be taken that scientifically as it is to give an estimate - I pulled those numbers from a post an enthusiast posted on another forum. By all means it could be wrong in the details, but I'd say it matches the sortie/loss rates at least in a general sense. I do want to know where that is from myself

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Lots of stuff to be factored in, it's an interesting discussion.

 

Perhaps the best way might indeed be Hoots' idea to just floor it, drop it all at once en masse and head back home for a second pass? Or at least do the first bomb/diversion attack but instead of following through right away the flight can go away from the target area and out of sight from the guns, climb out again, do a wide circle and hit the target from an unexpected direction?

[Livai]

---> The AAA shot at the first plane that reach their fire range. After this plane is shot down the AA search for a another target. This give the other planes much time to destroy the target or the AAA

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

So effectively you can have two aircraft just within range drawing the shots while flying a circle while other two come in at speed and either hit the target or the AA in a fast pass largely unbothered?

Edited January 9, 2016 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Stig]

It's not to be taken that scientifically as it is to give an estimate - I pulled those numbers from a post an enthusiast posted on another forum. By all means it could be wrong in the details, but I'd say it matches the sortie/loss rates at least in a general sense. I do want to know where that is from myself

 

Ahh, right. The loss numbers do seem to match with what I have read elsewhere, I just hadn't seen them specified in such detail before. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Ahh, right. The loss numbers do seem to match with what I have read elsewhere, I just hadn't seen them specified in such detail before.

Neither, but it kind of proves what I suspected already that a vast majority of Eastern Front VVS losses were due to attacking heavily defended targets in large numbers.

[von_Tom]

Was it Clostermann that reported 10 Tempests attacking a heavily defended airfield (by accident I recall) and only 2 made out it after a single pass?

 

That was the gist of it anyway. Can't speak for the OP though but sometimes more AAA at a lower skill level gives the same thrill but slightly more survivability.

 

Personally speaking I think we're used to small groups of aircraft being able to attack with relative impunity when that shouldn't really be the case if there is heavy defence. You need a staffel to be effective. Maybe next time soften up the defence by attacking the flak then mop up.

 

von Tom

Edited January 9, 2016 by von_Tom

[Sokol1]

---> The AAA shot at the first plane that reach their fire range. After this plane is shot down the AA search for a another target. This give the other planes much time to destroy the target or the AAA

 

 

Yes, are a big delay after the first AAA shoot - like with gunners in planes, their MG "jam" after a burst. And you dont see people complain about this.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

1.AAA Ace for airfields / AAA low for other targets.

Don't forget having heavy AAA to paint high level vulchers.

 

2. Number of fighters available per pilot: 2.

Considering ground accidents does not reduce planes. Unless you want to punish ramp take off.

 

3. Number of bombers: 3

 

4. Payload: fighters should not get the biggest bomb available.

 

5. Captured or dead fighter pilots on enemy territory should get a xx minutes penalty to rejoin.

 

6. 100% bonus point for bombers and 200% for transport.

 

What else? ?

Edited January 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Gielow

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

1.AAA Ace for airfields / AAA low for other targets.

Don't forget having heavy AAA to paint high level vulchers.

As far as I'm aware this is not possible. You can only set global AAA logic for all emplacements (rooky, mediocre, ace).

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

As far as I'm aware this is not possible. You can only set global AAA logic for all emplacements (rooky, mediocre, ace).

So lets ask Devs for it  

[Hoots]

Someone already has in the other thread for this server. The answer was no.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Someone already has in the other thread for this server. The answer was no.

Who said no ?? The Devs or people from DED ??

[7.GShAP/Silas]

The DED people said that a decision had been reached after discussion on the Russian language forum that AAA skill would NOT be downgraded.  I don't know anything about the devs saying anything about setting different skill levels for different AAA units.  Even if it was possible, I would imagine they'd need to be chosen specifically which is not possible in a dynamic mission server.  Maybe I'm wrong, though.

[Hoots]

Who said no ?? The Devs or people from DED ??

Sorry, misunderstood the question, the DED guys

Edited January 9, 2016 by Hoots

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I just sent a question to Devs thread.

[johncage]

there needs to be ground attack only servers. air quake is boring

[6./ZG26_Emil]

As far as I'm aware this is not possible. You can only set global AAA logic for all emplacements (rooky, mediocre, ace).

 

I'm quite positive you can have different skill settings for different guns or do you mean something else?

[URUAker]

Tried DED random yesterday, took a Ju87, i was alone, on my way to target spotted another artillery placement, they spotted me too so they hit me a couple of times with machine gun fire before i could turn back to attack, missed my first bomb, and got some more holes in my plane, second pass killed 2 M4 machineguns, but got my engine damaged from aaa and could not make it very far.

 

I think it was a very plausible outcome for my sortie, 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Tried DED random yesterday, took a Ju87, i was alone, on my way to target spotted another artillery placement, they spotted me too so they hit me a couple of times with machine gun fire before i could turn back to attack, missed my first bomb, and got some more holes in my plane, second pass killed 2 M4 machineguns, but got my engine damaged from aaa and could not make it very far.

 

I think it was a very plausible outcome for my sortie, 

 

I think this shows why the glass wing of the 110 is such a huge issue (more so that the subject of this post) getting hit is fine but having wings snap off several times in an evening is pretty strange, iirc we had this issue with another aircraft earlier last year. 

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello all,

 

Would more mg's vs cannon help things? With ol' IL2 1946 I would substitute some 20mm/37mm cannon for aaa mg's so there would be lots of flak over a target which could kill you but it gave the flyers better odds for surviving a pass or two. The 4X7.62 mg setups were quite effective when they connected, and added lots of nice eye candy to the mission without a huge frame rate hit. 

 

I'd also put some guns in random places on the map, particularly bridges, crossroads and towns, so players would not get complacent when transiting to/from the target areas when flying IFR (I Follow Roads/Rivers  ). I'm not sure how this would affect frame rates in BoS, but I like the idea that being in hostile territory can be, well, hostile   .

 

Good hunting,

=CFC=Conky

[Lusekofte]

But why does the AAA at normal Depots and Artillery have to be Snipers?

It basically means that you can't fly Bombers and Attackers anymore, so you are forced to fly Focke Wulfs with 500kg Bombs to get somewhere even close to the target and do damage. 

The Slower Aircraft just explode once they get close. You won't imagine how often I get shot down winding down in a 600kph spiral dive in Pe-2s and Bf110s or Stukas. 

The Il-2 has no purpose anymore except for being almost stationary target practice. 

 

The Ace AAA was seen as a solution to the Problem of Fw190s raping ground targets, so now they are the only ones that are even able to reliably get through. It was a shot in the goalies back. 

 

They aint snipers, look none survived attacking a heavily defended target alone, no one. They call it sniper gunner when I get a lucky shot in the turret against a attacking fighter

Edited January 9, 2016 by EG14_LuseKofte

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Hello all,

 

Would more mg's vs cannon help things? With ol' IL2 1946 I would substitute some 20mm/37mm cannon for aaa mg's so there would be lots of flak over a target which could kill you but it gave the flyers better odds for surviving a pass or two. The 4X7.62 mg setups were quite effective when they connected, and added lots of nice eye candy to the mission without a huge frame rate hit. 

 

I'd also put some guns in random places on the map, particularly bridges, crossroads and towns, so players would not get complacent when transiting to/from the target areas when flying IFR (I Follow Roads/Rivers  ). I'm not sure how this would affect frame rates in BoS, but I like the idea that being in hostile territory can be, well, hostile   .

 

Good hunting,

=CFC=Conky

 

Actually that's close to an idea I am toying with using. You create flak zones on a map, areas that you are almost guaranteed to be killed if you fly over them unless you coordinate an attack to 'punch a hole' through them, for a co-op type mission this could be a lot of fun working with jabos to suppress and degrade the flak so the heavier aircraft and their escorts can exploit the gap and get in to the rear of the enemy lines only to be faced with the enemy fighter patrols....I think that would be a lot of fun.

 

Either way I really like your ideas but I think that DF servers are never going to benefit due to the way people fly, I'm not being derogatory it's just people treat their aircraft as dispensable on the DF server and if you only have a single life people fly completely differently

[URUAker]

I see, sadly I don´t have the 110, so I cant give my opinion on that

 

I think this shows why the glass wing of the 110 is such a huge issue (more so that the subject of this post) getting hit is fine but having wings snap off several times in an evening is pretty strange, iirc we had this issue with another aircraft earlier last year. 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I see, sadly I don´t have the 110, so I cant give my opinion on that

 

I'm sure it will get fixed eventually

[Sokol1]

As far as I'm aware this is not possible. You can only set global AAA logic for all emplacements (rooky, mediocre, ace).

 

 

Why not? This depends on MCU used by mission maker for a give FLAK emplacement.

In the mission running in RANDON yesterday (picture above post) that open in ME are 3 different AI skill for FLAK...

 

As target have different "durability", varies from 500 (a pile of box) to 9000 (a factory).

Edited January 9, 2016 by Sokol1

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Why not? This depends on MCU used by mission maker for a give FLAK emplacement.

In the mission running in RANDON yesterday (picture above post) that open in ME are 3 different AI skill for FLAK...

 

As target have different "durability", varies from 500 (a pile of box) to 9000 (a factory).

 

There is no global setting for AAA

[Fidelity]

Perhaps the best way might indeed be Hoots' idea to just floor it, drop it all at once en masse and head back home for a second pass? Or at least do the first bomb/diversion attack but instead of following through right away the flight can go away from the target area and out of sight from the guns, climb out again, do a wide circle and hit the target from an unexpected direction?

I typically will do a single pass in the PE-2 (with four 250kg). I will dive from 4km pependicular to the target and make a 90 degree turn into the target at around 1km out. Drop all bombs and head home. Mind, you, these passes are done at 500+ kph. I will typically return to base with MAYBE 1 engine in working order. Add any fighter attention to the mix and it will probably result in ditching it in a field. I've never made a run on an objective on the DED server and NOT taken a few hits from AA.

 

I made the mistake of once trying to make a second pass on a target. Yeah, that ended with my engines giving out a couple kilometers from friendly lines and a bunch of flight surfaces missing.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I typically will do a single pass in the PE-2 (with four 250kg). I will dive from 4km pependicular to the target and make a 90 degree turn into the target at around 1km out. Drop all bombs and head home. Mind, you, these passes are done at 500+ kph. I will typically return to base with MAYBE 1 engine in working order. Add any fighter attention to the mix and it will probably result in ditching it in a field. I've never made a run on an objective on the DED server and NOT taken a few hits from AA.

 

I made the mistake of once trying to make a second pass on a target. Yeah, that ended with my engines giving out a couple kilometers from friendly lines and a bunch of flight surfaces missing.

 

Yeh we flew the Pe-2 loads before the 110 came out and didn't struggle the same way....The glass wing is a big issue

[Wulf]

It is the way it is because the Fw190s with 500kg bombs are the inaircraftination of literal rape. They were able to rape an entire map in very short time and at high speed and were almost invincible. 

So the AAA was strengthened to better deal with fast aircraft, and because more complicated stuff like tanks came along  it was reduced in numbers and buffed into a ridicolous Arcade Level killing machine so as not to hurt server performance. 

 

The Result is that now really only Fw190s and Il-2s have a reliable chance to even get to their target and drop their ordonance before being blown to smitherines. Attacking the ground is Suicide and no Airforce commander would have sent as much as a white dove out if the air defenses of their enemies had been as strong.

It's a waste of time really, time you could spend idling around at 8000m casually fighting others for no reason at all. Just boring Contrailjocks tumbling around senselessly because they are ultimately of no importance to anything. 

 

Edit: The P-40 wasn't bad either

 

 

I've had a look at most of the posts in this thread but I'm still struggling to understand what it is that people are really trying to achieve.  Do they want something like realism or do they just want a free ride? The game is supposed to simulate the air war in the East, is it not?  How dangerous do you imagine it would have been to engage in low level attacks against defended targets, in aircraft that often struggle to do more than about 300 mph?  I think people often have a totally unrealistic notion about their survival prospects in such circumstances.  Notions like having a 'Pilot Career' in SP, hardly helps.  There are always exceptions of course but typically I'd imagine that crews posted to sectors where the combat came thick and fast would have had virtually no chance at all - none.  Strike aircraft during this period were in reality little more than manned missiles.  The crews, like the infantry on the ground, were entirely expendable.    

 

I don't know too much about what went on in Russia but I do have some idea about what life was like for Coastal Command strike crews in the RAF during this same early war period.  And the reality was, they suffered close to 90% casualty rates.  If you flew from the UK or somewhere in the Middle East/Med, you'd be doing very well to survive more than a few operational sorties.  As often as not, crews failed to return from their very first combat operation.  Almost nobody completed a tour of ops. It was simply unheard of.  You were walking dead.  You had no prospects at all.  Getting wounded and invalided-out of operational flying was your only realistic prospect for survival..  Now admittedly CC engaged the enemy at very low altitude over water so you couldn't bail out and even if you did you died in the sea; but would things have been much  different over Russia?  If they were, I suspect it wouldn't have been much different.   

 

If anything I suspect your current chances in the game, when flying strike aircraft, significantly exceed your chances in real life.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Wulf

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I've had a look at most of the posts in this thread but I'm still struggling to understand what it is that people are really trying to achieve.  Do they want something like realism or do they just want a free ride? The game is supposed to simulate the air war in the East, is it not?  How dangerous do you imagine it would have been to engage in low level attacks against defended targets, in aircraft that often struggle to do more than about 300 mph?  I think people often have a totally unrealistic notion about their survival prospects in such circumstances.  Notions like having a 'Pilot Career' in SP, hardly helps.  There are always exceptions of course but typically I'd imagine that crews posted to sectors where the combat came thick and fast would have had virtually no chance at all - none.  Strike aircraft during this period were in reality little more than manned missiles.  The crews, like the infantry on the ground, were entirely expendable.    

 

I don't know too much about what went on in Russia but I do have some idea about what life was like for Coastal Command strike crews in the RAF during this same early war period.  And the reality was, they suffered close to 90% casualty rates.  If you flew from the UK or somewhere in the Middle East/Med, you'd be doing very well to survive more than a few operational sorties.  As often as not, crews failed to return from their very first combat operation.  Almost nobody completed a tour of ops. It was simply unheard of.  You were walking dead.  You had no prospects at all.  Getting wounded and invalided-out of operational flying was your only realistic prospect for survival..  Now admittedly CC engaged the enemy at very low altitude over water so you couldn't bail out and even if you did you died in the sea; but would things have been much  different over Russia?  If they were, I suspect it wouldn't have been much different.   

 

If anything I suspect your current chances in the game, when flying strike aircraft, significantly exceed your chances in the real life.

 

Read his original post and you will get it.

 

The point is that every pilot gets 3 planes on DED....ground attack is far more likely to get you killed so bomber pilots are going to be knocked out far quicker than fighter pilots....add in ACE AAA at the target and there is less incentive for people to fly slower ground attack aircraft like IL2s or 110s etc.

 

With a cap on aircraft for all pilots why would you take a 110 or Il2 if you can take a fighter with bombs and rockets...you get a better chance of survival if you are smaller and quicker.

 

Is it that hard to understand?

P.S my new years resolution was to stop posting on this forum....I've already broken it 

[Feathered_IV]

 

 

I'd also put some guns in random places on the map, particularly bridges, crossroads and towns, so players would not get complacent when transiting to/from the target areas when flying IFR (I Follow Roads/Rivers  ). I'm not sure how this would affect frame rates in BoS, but I like the idea that being in hostile territory can be, well, hostile   .

 

 

I agree.  I've often wondered why mission makers do not do this.  Key nav points were often the location of anti aircraft defences.

[Sokol1]

....add in ACE AAA at the target and there is less incentive for people to fly slower ground attack aircraft like IL2s or 110s etc.

 

AAA in targets are LOW or MEDIUM... and HIGH around airfields.

 

What people want is that FLAK use fireworks instead live ammo. 

Edited January 10, 2016 by Sokol1

[6./ZG26_Emil]

AAA in targets are LOW or MEDIUM... and HIGH around airfields.

 

What people want is that FLAK use fireworks instead live ammo. 

 

Are they really? On which servers?

 

Because I've looked at mission made (not for DED) but others and that is simply not true,.....either way your not quoting my entire post so it's not really a discussion is it?

[Wulf]

Read his original post and you will get it.

 

The point is that every pilot gets 3 planes on DED....ground attack is far more likely to get you killed so bomber pilots are going to be knocked out far quicker than fighter pilots....add in ACE AAA at the target and there is less incentive for people to fly slower ground attack aircraft like IL2s or 110s etc.

 

With a cap on aircraft for all pilots why would you take a 110 or Il2 if you can take a fighter with bombs and rockets...you get a better chance of survival if you are smaller and quicker.

 

Is it that hard to understand?

P.S my new years resolution was to stop posting on this forum....I've already broken it 

 

 

So ... because of the 'plane cap' and the Flak, plane selection is skewed in favour of fighters (that and the fact that in CFS, fighters are and always have been, the sexier of the two propositions)?   Well maybe I guess but I certainly don't select aircraft based on their prospects for survival.  I fly the aircraft  that I'm passionate about and want to fly.  That's what I do and that's what I'll continue to do.  If I was passionate about the Ju 87, well I'd take that, and most importantly, the diminished chances for survival that come with the territory, but as it happens I'm a 190 guy.  In circumstances where the 190 isn't available I tend to exit the game and do something else.