Does P40 really s**k, or is it just me?

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I have a single P40 down and it was on a coop mission.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

In terms of performance however, the difference between early A6Ms and late I-16s is rather insignificant. The A6M2 is slightly faster (less than 10km/h) and climbs slightly better (less than 1 m/s). The A6M2 has a significantly lower wing loading but the I-16 has a solid lead in power/weight ratio.

 

 

Depends  what you  think of as "slightly faster". A6M2 had maximum continuous speed of 275 knots, 30 minute rated power could give 288-292 knots and at emergency power aircraft could go up to 300 knots. And power to weight ratio is relative, A6M2 is hampered by huge amount of fuel it carries. For the purposes of flying in game like this you could fly at less than 40 % and still could do fine. I-16 cant do the same ... 

 

 

Unfortunately, the most popular multiplayer server doesn't allow ordnance on the P-40s.

RiP 

[Finkeren]

Depends what you think of as "slightly faster". A6M2 had maximum continuous speed of 275 knots, 30 minute rated power could give 288-292 knots and at emergency power aircraft could go up to 300 knots. And power to weight ratio is relative, A6M2 is hampered by huge amount of fuel it carries. For the purposes of flying in game like this you could fly at less than 40 % and still could do fine. I-16 cant do the same ...

 

In any case, we're haggling over peanuts here. It just goes to show, that my original statement: That the Japanese fighters the P-40 faced in 42/43 were closer to the I-16 than the Bf 109 in terms of performance, was accurate.

[MasterBaiter]

p40 is like owning an old, rabid dog that has dementia. You love the dog and it loves you even though it cant do anything and sometimes it forgets who you are and bites you subjecting you to a horrible death

Yep! Pretty much it at the moment!

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

was accurate.

 

Was as accurate as those muskets in XVIth century ...

[Finkeren]

                                     sniper rifles   XXI

Was as accurate as those muskets in XVIth century ...

 

 

 

Fixed that for you

Edited April 6, 2016 by Finkeren

[Frequent_Flyer]

In any case, we're haggling over peanuts here. It just goes to show, that my original statement: That the Japanese fighters the P-40 faced in 42/43 were closer to the I-16 than the Bf 109 in terms of performance, was accurate.

Actually the AM2? and the Bf-109? by 42-43 were both an obsolete airframes. Neither had good high speed handling characteristics. Not an issue when taking on the slow VVS fighters. However as history revealed they  struggled against faster allied fighters. In fact the Luftwaffe lost more aircraft in the ETO than on  the Eastern front even thought asset allocation was greater on the eastern front.

[SYN_Luftwaffles]

This dumb plane doesn't move, I've just been kickassed by a mere bf100.

Normally, I can beat any plane with any other plane (yes, even a toy like the i-16), but when it comes to fly the p40 I end up cursing at my PC...

So far, I find it just a useless, heavy crap tractor, expecially in dogfight

Where am I failing at?

You makin fun of my i-16???

[mort]

<snip>

However as history revealed they  struggled against faster allied fighters. In fact the Luftwaffe lost more aircraft in the ETO than on  the Eastern front even thought asset allocation was greater on the eastern front.

 

I'd imagine the differences in mission profile in the ETO such as countering the round-the-clock bombing campaign could also play a part in Luftwaffe lost aircraft disparities. Additionally aircraft loss rates over time would also be relevant, to fully contextualize those rates with the state of the ground war and the types and quantity of opposing allied aircraft.

[seafireliv]

I`m looking forward to trying the P 40 too. It wasn`t that easy to fly in IL2 either, but it was also a favourite plane of mine.

 

edit: On a side note, i`m glad that these planes aren`t ubered cheats, a kind of `pay-to-win` I see so often these days. You pay for the real thing, warts and all. I would have no interest in purchasing them if they were.

Edited April 6, 2016 by seafireliv

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I'd imagine the differences in mission profile in the ETO such as countering the round-the-clock bombing campaign could also play a part in Luftwaffe lost aircraft disparities. Additionally aircraft loss rates over time would also be relevant, to fully contextualize those rates with the state of the ground war and the types and quantity of opposing allied aircraft.

 

Worth noting that the VVS had a bad habit of sending small groups of aircraft on missions up until 1943. In other words, even when they had superior numbers in total, division commanders would insist on sending for example four fighters to intercept forty Ju-87s with twelve Bf-109s as escort. The pilots of course knew this was stupid, but orders were orders. Thankfully once Novikov took the helm of the Army Air Forces, he started changing things around and pilot input was implemented as fast as possible which led to the improved results. (sorry for OT)

[BlitzPig_EL]

During it's time in P 40s in North Africa, the 325th Fighter Group had 133 confirmed Axis aircraft shot down, another 144 "probable" victories, for the loss of 43 aircraft.

 

By type, confirmed victories were:

 

3 Storch

2 Ju 52

7 Me 323

26 Mc 202

95 Bf 109

 

This was from 17 April to 22 September 1943.

Edited April 6, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[Frequent_Flyer]

I'd imagine the differences in mission profile in the ETO such as countering the round-the-clock bombing campaign could also play a part in Luftwaffe lost aircraft disparities. Additionally aircraft loss rates over time would also be relevant, to fully contextualize those rates with the state of the ground war and the types and quantity of opposing allied aircraft.

For the Luftwaffe the ETO was an even greater target rich environment than the Eastern Front. They had more targets in a  concentrated area ,there were bombing missions that had in excess of 1,000 bombers in the stream.  However, the Luftwaffe  no longer had superior aircraft nor were they the better pilot. Faster allied aircraft dictated the engagements. Additionally, the average altitude of the engagements in the ETO were much higher than in the East. Higher altitudes present greater stress on  aircraft and pilots It also, highlighted the vast benefit of the much greater range of the allied aircraft, in particular the fighters.

[busdriver]

Haha, yeah I know what you mean.  This aircraft looks like it should tear up the skies when in reality it is an awful design.  Looks good but preforms very bad.  So bad that the United States decided to ditch all of them to lend lease and make new fighters.  It wasn't even that old.  I mean, the U.S. knew that aircraft was such shit that they just gave up on them, using them only where they had too, and accepting the losses.

 

I'm not sure what source material you're using to make this assertion. The Army Air Corps couldn't just flip a switch and instantly re-equip every squadron with shiny new P-38s, P-47s or P-51s. The US had agreed to focus its efforts in the ETO. Makes sense to focus somewhere. Sure the P-40 wasn't the best, call it mediocre if you must (probably an accurate objective assessment) but it wasn't a steamy pile of excrement either (at least not according to the guys that flew it in 1943/44). The most numerous version of the P-40 was the N, over 5,000 airframes produced with approximately 600 going to our Allies. The first N model was delivered to front line squadrons in March of 1944. Just over 16,000 P-40s were built.

 

Perhaps you are unaware that P-40s served with the following USAAF fighter groups in combat theaters: 

 

8th, 35th, and 49th FGs in the Southwest Pacific (5th AF) from 1942 up to September 1944.

15th FG (defense of Hawaii) until 1944 and 18th FG in the Solomons (7th AF) until approximately September 1943.

23rd FG in China from 1942 to 1944.

27th FG in the Mediterranean (12th AF) Jan-Jun 1944.

33rd FG in the Mediterranean (12th AF) from 1942 to Feb 1944.

51st FG in the India (10th AF) from 1942 moved to China (14th AF) in 1943 into 1944. 

57th and 79th FGs in the Mediterranean (9th AF later 12th AF) from 1942 to early 1944.

343rd FG in Alaska (11th AF) from 1942 up to its last combat mission in October 1943.

 

[Venturi]

During it's time in P 40s in North Africa, the 325th Fighter Group had 133 confirmed Axis aircraft shot down, another 144 "probable" victories, for the loss of 43 aircraft.

 

By type, confirmed victories were:

 

3 Storch

2 Ju 52

7 Me 323

26 Mc 202

95 Bf 109

 

This was from 17 April to 22 September 1943.

[Dakpilot]

During his time in the Desert War a certain German Ace shot down 101 P-40's on his own, although 20 of his claimed total of 158 are not confirmed, it does give one pause for thought though

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Venturi]

Part of this was that the veteran Luftwaffe pilots were never allowed home to train the next generation. They were just kept in the field, until they were eventually killed. Foolish waste.

 

See the following for an excellent account of the more pertinent pressures and bad decisions foisted upon the (some very excellent) Luftwaffe pilots.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAF-Luftwaffe/

 

During his time in the Desert War a certain German Ace shot down 101 P-40's on his own, although 20 of his claimed total of 158 are not confirmed, it does give one pause for thought though

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[7.GShAP/Silas]

The ability to remove your best men from operational billets and use them as instructors is a very nice luxury to have. Maybe if the Japanese had been carpet bombing American cities from coast to coast and landing troops in Hawaii, Canada or California the U.S. Army would have thought twice before sending their most successful men(and most successful combat leaders) home.

 

It's also important to understand that not all armies, including today, believe that operational-level training should happen before men are sent to their units(AIT, SOI, etc) but rather should take place at their permanent party(unit) .

Edited April 7, 2016 by Silas

[seafireliv]

The ability to remove your best men from operational billets and use them as instructors is a very nice luxury to have.

You touch it with a needle.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Dak,

 

There is no doubt about the abilities of Hans-Joachim Marseille.  A master of deflection shooting, and a daring pilot over all.  However,. it must be said that those machines he got were flown by Commonwealth pilots using fairly outdated tactics (Lufberry circles, really? ) and would have been shot down no matter what type they were in.  He also shot down a fair number of Hurricanes as well.  So are we going to bash that type too?  Oh the howling that will ensue from our cousins in the old empire when the Hurri is modeled as the Russians saw it, a slow ,lumbering, stick in the mud.  Which I don't agree with either.

 

Cheers.

[Original_Uwe]

Ya I'm really not optimistic about them creating a hurri, spit, thunderbolt or lightning.

[Trinkof]

During it's time in P 40s in North Africa, the 325th Fighter Group had 133 confirmed Axis aircraft shot down, another 144 "probable" victories, for the loss of 43 aircraft.

 

By type, confirmed victories were:

 

3 Storch

2 Ju 52

7 Me 323

26 Mc 202

95 Bf 109

 

This was from 17 April to 22 September 1943.

I would take any USAF number very cautiously for ww2, the accreditation of victory system was very optimistic and .... Propagandist?

 

If you take the official numbers the entire LW fighters had been shot done in early 1944 by b17 gunners.... Which made the RAF command laugh very hard

 

If I remember correctly Clostermann book, who was in HQ before D-day, RAF asked politely to USAF to stop with the newspaper crap numbers, because there was still LW aircraft flying, in complete contradiction with any US number.

Edited April 7, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[Dakpilot]

Dak,

 

There is no doubt about the abilities of Hans-Joachim Marseille.  A master of deflection shooting, and a daring pilot over all.  However,. it must be said that those machines he got were flown by Commonwealth pilots using fairly outdated tactics (Lufberry circles, really? ) and would have been shot down no matter what type they were in.  He also shot down a fair number of Hurricanes as well.  So are we going to bash that type too?  Oh the howling that will ensue from our cousins in the old empire when the Hurri is modeled as the Russians saw it, a slow ,lumbering, stick in the mud.  Which I don't agree with either.

 

Cheers.

 

Steady on!! 

 

Some of the Commonwealth Pilots and Squadrons were very highly rated, am not bashing the P-40 I love them  but 101 to 30 Hurries does stand out a bit for whatever reasons

 

There is lots of talk of engine limits but little on its actual performance 'in game' I imagine there must be tons of real life data due to its long and widespread career to compare, but there is so much more to air combat than full throttle speed

 

I also believe that the engine limits need some adjustment, but also don't want to see 'everyone' just blasting around at 70"s until eventually their engines blow and respawning, it would not be very good either. And from all I have read of P-40's in Russian use not very historical either

 

In his 18 months in Africa Marseille at least got five separate 'vacations' at home, I wonder if the less famous regular  Pilots had the same opportunities..I doubt it

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[PatrickAWlson]

I would take any USAF number very cautiously for ww2, the accreditation of victory system was very optimistic and .... Propagandist?

 

If you take the official numbers the entire LW fighters had been shot done in early 1944 by b17 gunners.... Which made the RAF command laugh very hard

 

If I remember correctly Clostermann book, who was in HQ before D-day, RAF asked politely to USAF to stop with the newspaper crap numbers, because there was still LW aircraft flying, in complete contradiction with any US number.

 

 

The heavy bomber numbers were a combination of morale, propaganda, and circumstances.  

Morale.  Early on the unescorted daylight raids were taking huge losses.  They were not gong to compound that by denying claims.  If it made the crews feel good then so be it.  Unofficially they divided by 10 and even that was optimistic.

Propaganda: back to the losses.  it was important for the powers that be to look good to those that hey answered to, thus inflated claims and inflated damage assessments.

Circumstances.  A FW190 comes in for a head on pass.  Closure rate is 500 MPH or more.  A dozen gunners are shooting at him.  The FW explodes.  A dozen claims are awarded.  Alternative: the FW rolls and dives at full throttle, trailing black exhaust.  A dozen claims are awarded and the FW might not even have been scratched.

 

The British did not think too much of American fighter claims either.  In the end all sides over claimed pretty wildly - 300% or more.  I don't think this takes anything away from the individual pilots.  Just is what it is - imperfect mating of perception and reality.

[J4SCrisZeri]

You makin fun of my i-16???

well, it's a silly tiny chubby thing...

[wtornado]

During it's time in P 40s in North Africa, the 325th Fighter Group had 133 confirmed Axis aircraft shot down, another 144 "probable" victories, for the loss of 43 aircraft.

 

By type, confirmed victories were:

 

3 Storch

2 Ju 52

7 Me 323

26 Mc 202

95 Bf 109

 

This was from 17 April to 22 September 1943.

Well with the surrender of the Afrika Korps in May 1943 the invasion of Sicily and the transfer of fighter

and bomber groups to the eastern front for the Battle of Kursk not to mention the relentless bombing

of German airfields and positions must of made it very hard for German fighter pilots then on all fronts

thinning them out to only handfuls of fighters in the MTO.

 

The DAF by 1943 was a  huge really huge multi-national AF.

 

I remember reading about huge DAF formations of fighter and fighter bomber groups long range interdiction flights

that would often come up on just a handful of German fighters trying to protect their positions and it

would end up as a turkey shoot for the DAF outnumbering the German small formations of fighters of just a

few planes at a time.They would even take the time to hunt them all down.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

Some of the Commonwealth Pilots and Squadrons were very highly rated, am not bashing the P-40 I love them  but 101 to 30 Hurries does stand out a bit for whatever reasons

Without proper context its not really fair to draw a conclusion. One should take a look how many Squadrons operated Hurricanes and how many P-40s in give operations, what was the task given to P-40s and what was the task given to Hurricanes.  

So whatever reasons is exactly the thing that should be focused. I believe P-40s were given a lot of ground pounding tasks, destroying supply columns and trucks and all that kind of stuff. If such they were loaded with ordnance and were much lower, they were thus more prone to attack. If they were more present at given time and place that would also mean more targets of opportunity for Luftwaffe. 

Just because someone shot down somewhere more P-40s than Hurricanes doesnt mean anything.

 

 

 

There is lots of talk of engine limits but little on its actual performance 'in game' I imagine there must be tons of real life data due to its long and widespread career to compare, but there is so much more to air combat than full throttle speed

No, this is actually the beginning of all this discussion. Aircraft performance is disappointing for many and main reason for this is lack of engine power and rigorous limits. Besides, I dont see much complains on full throttle speed but rather fast loss of energy in combat, limited climb rate and that kind of stuff.

 

 

 

I also believe that the engine limits need some adjustment, but also don't want to see 'everyone' just blasting around at 70"s until eventually their engines blow and respawning, it would not be very good either. And from all I have read of P-40's in Russian use not very historical either

Right, because thats what guys in P-40 Engine limits thread are talking about. Except not. 

[Trinkof]

The heavy bomber numbers were a combination of morale, propaganda, and circumstances.  

Morale.  Early on the unescorted daylight raids were taking huge losses.  They were not gong to compound that by denying claims.  If it made the crews feel good then so be it.  Unofficially they divided by 10 and even that was optimistic.

Propaganda: back to the losses.  it was important for the powers that be to look good to those that hey answered to, thus inflated claims and inflated damage assessments.

Circumstances.  A FW190 comes in for a head on pass.  Closure rate is 500 MPH or more.  A dozen gunners are shooting at him.  The FW explodes.  A dozen claims are awarded.  Alternative: the FW rolls and dives at full throttle, trailing black exhaust.  A dozen claims are awarded and the FW might not even have been scratched.

 

The British did not think too much of American fighter claims either.  In the end all sides over claimed pretty wildly - 300% or more.  I don't think this takes anything away from the individual pilots.  Just is what it is - imperfect mating of perception and reality.

 

Hey Pat, 

 

fully agree with you, and I was not trying to take anything away from the pilots or gunner back in those day, this must have been hell fot them. Some of the numbers were propaganda, and worked pretty well on moral behind the line, and I am also personnaly glad it worked

 

I just wanted to temper the "official" result of individuals squadrons quoted as an example to enforce the fact that the P40 was not a bad fighter in 1942. I love the plane, but it was a clearly inferior fighter in those desperate time. And BOS FM of the P40 even if a little harsh with engine limitation, represent it actually pretty well. 

 

No doubt in the months coming we will see some player dedicating fully themselves to the P40 and do pretty well as a fighters, .... but the plane is a brick .... a stylish legendary brick  

[Fern]

Blah blah blah blah blah. Who cares about history. They balance out other planes for better or worse. Just up the limits of the engine already. It will still be a brick, but a better brick.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Steady on!! 

 

Some of the Commonwealth Pilots and Squadrons were very highly rated,

 

Absolutely they were.  No argument from me on that.

 

Isn't it odd, that what is such a "mediocre aircraft" could have made as many aces as it did?  Honestly it was a better aircraft than is portrayed today.

When the 23rd. (former AVG) in China was faced with conversion from the P40 to the P51 many pilots tried very hard to keep their P40s as long as possible.

Sure the P51 was faster, even the A model with the Allison engine, but the P40 gave them the option of better maneuverability, and a lower landing and takeoff speed, which was important on the less than stellar aerodromes that were in use in China.

 

Also of note, the 325th. was the first unit in any air force to use a 1000lb. bomb on the P 40.

[seafireliv]

Had my first flight in a P 40 jumped a 109 AI and shot her down. `That was a good start`, I thought. A second 109 got on my 6, tried to out-turn, nooo, this bird won`t have it. Barely keeping out of the 109`s fire. Started scissoring instead- stalled- crashed.

 

Bugger.

[wtornado]

Had my first flight in a P 40 jumped a 109 AI and shot her down. `That was a good start`, I thought. A second 109 got on my 6, tried to out-turn, nooo, this bird won`t have it. Barely keeping out of the 109`s fire. Started scissoring instead- stalled- crashed.

 

Bugger.

Sounds historical.

[Venturi]

There's something not quite right with the P40, and truly it is probably multifactorial. (Is the weight right?) But the ultimate issue is that the plane is just totally different at continuous power vs even 50" of power. It's not the top speed, it's not anything other than you just can't do anything in it once you burn that e. Again, acceleration comes into play here. And it just doesn't with the engine as modeled. It has a total lack of combat speed, worse than every other a/c including big heavy ones like the 110. Anyways enough about that, you guys were talking about something else.

[Dave]

Just remember folks, that in the Pacific and East Asia, where the P-40 was used the most and had the most success, it was battling aircraft which lie closer to the I-16 than to the Bf 109 in terms of performance.

Bollocks on both the theatre and opposition.

What are these Japanese I-16s you allude to? And outside the US which only seem to know about the flying tigers, the Kittyhawk II is famous for North Africa and Italy.

[LukeFF]

when the Hurri is modeled as the Russians saw it, a slow ,lumbering, stick in the mud.

 

Well, that's what it was by 1941. And that wasn't the view of just the Soviets - the Finns also had a low opinion of it. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by LukeFF

[LukeFF]

 

 

They balance out other planes for better or worse.

 

Eh no, they do not. Sorry, try again.

 

Blah blah blah blah blah. Who cares about history.

 

Plenty here do. If you don't, kindly move along and don't disrupt the discussion.  

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Flying Tigers faced Ki-27, Ki-43 and a smattering of A6M2's in the fighter category I believe. Hiromachi will correct me if I am mistaken.

[Venturi]

That's a face a mother could love

 

Let's get that FM right! It's not a turd!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Venturi

[Fern]

Eh no, they do not. Sorry, try again.

 

 

Plenty here do. If you don't, kindly move along and don't disrupt the discussion.  

 

So are all aircraft FMs changed due to historical documents or for the sake of just balancing? Why do you guys keep screwing with the 190?

Edited April 8, 2016 by Fern

[Venturi]

Because they're trying to get it right as far as they can determine, so that it is flying the way it actually did,

 

This is the same motivation with the P40.