tracerless belts

[Xenunjeon88]

Was tracer-less ammunition belts an availability during this time period with the sides involved, in this theater? I'd like to remove tracers from my belts and have read that pilots have done so to prevent the pyrotechnics from alerting their prey from the danger.

 

Would this be okay?

[Y-29.Silky]

Ah that'd be so nice!

[SC_Manu653]

I'm up too for traceless belt, but I'm affraid that some people whinning about that... some still have issues with the sound of the bullets hitting the plane. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

I'm affraid that some people whinning about that... some still have issues with the sound of the bullets hitting the plane. 

 

Given the nature of how sound travels and the obviousness of the incorrectness I fail to understand why criticism of the sound engine is so poorly received. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[Dakpilot]

How historical would it be RE Eastern front? I don't see the average Russian Squadron being very flexible on individual ammo loadouts, is there any evidence on Luftwaffe usage on Russian front?

 

I have no idea

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Gunsmith86]

Most german rounds had tracers but some used the night tracer which is hard to see in daylight. In the german manuals for ammunition there is no belting whitout tracer. The belts in that manual are constructive suggestions to help the group leader to decide which ammunition is best for the job he has to do.

Night tracer ( called "Glimmspur" in german it´s a dimly glowing tracer for night use)

List with german amunition there you can see if they had tracer and which one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sX8ZB27l94Dy7DXSG6dbhXqbVKdvJ78MDlmnUMD4Q3M/edit#gid=1465002216

Edited January 7, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[Dakpilot]

I would imagine there would be hell to pay at the quartermasters if one 'Experten' had used all the 'Glimmspur' supplies during the day when it came time for the Squadron to do a night op 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[bokepacha]

I'd kill for traceless belts.

 

When I played WT 2 years ago, I always used them. They make me feel evil and nasty  at the same time. I like it

[StG77_Kondor]

A system like CloD would be nice. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

How historical would it be RE Eastern front? I don't see the average Russian Squadron being very flexible on individual ammo loadouts, is there any evidence on Luftwaffe usage on Russian front?

 

Well, there is all-AP/HE loadout available for a couple of guns on BoS, isn't there? Plus field mods were done relatively often, like Pokryshkin asking his mechanic Zhmud to wire all the P-39 MGs and the cannon to the MG button to avoid ham-fisting when aiming the 37mm cannon, which then became standard practice in his squadron and later regiment.

 

That being said I don't know if Soviet pilots ever cared (positively or negatively) for tracer ammunition as much as the rest did since the practices seemed to be pretty polarised between 'sit really close to the enemy then smoke him up point-blank' and the aces who mastered gunnery to an extremely scientific point and were able to score some pretty complicated hits even with the negative parabola 37mm guns. If we assume my gross generalisation as true, we have that one camp doesn't care because they're hitting at <100m guiding by the gunsight and the other doesn't care because they're calculating to hit the first shot anyway. But then there's all that stuff about generalisations not being true...

[bivalov]

one of those very rare mentions - http://iremember.ru/memoirs/letchiki-istrebiteli/gaydaenko-ivan-dmitrievich/ - 

 

"...А когда трассирующих патронов в ленте нет, то ты подходишь и бьешь. Не попал - еще ближе подходишь. Во всяком случае, с моей точки зрения, так было лучше, и я просил пулеметы трассирующими не заряжать, но выполнялась моя просьба нечасто."

Edited January 8, 2016 by bivalov

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Thanks for sharing, Bivalov. That website is amazing, you can always find great material there (plus it has an English section for those who can't venture in Russian)

 

A quick translation:

 

 

...but when there were no tracer rounds in the belt, then you'd close in and attack. If you didn't hit, close in even more. In any case, in my opinion it was better that way, and I asked for tracer bullets to not be loaded, but my request was seldom followed.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Xenunjeon88]

Well, so it seems historically correct that tracer-less belts existed, but rarely done? Should it then be a limited ammo type in multiplayer games? As in only 1 out of 10 players can have it in a game? I don't know. I really want to try tracerless belts...

[Dakpilot]

Sounds like it was so rare there is little point, and if implemented historically there would be endless bitching because only the 'few' got it

 

not for it  sorry

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[ShamrockOneFive]

Maybe we'll get tracerless belts along with tracer colours?

[VBF-12_Snake9]

La5. AP loadout only. There you go. I like tracers though.

[TP_Jacko]

Depends how far away you shoot. If you get close and aim well then it makes little difference if you have tracer or not.

[bokepacha]

Depends how far away you shoot. If you get close and aim well then it makes little difference if you have tracer or not.

But for the ones with worse joysticks or poor gunnery skills, they have a second chance before the poor target finds out there  is someone sending him to the ground.

[Xenunjeon88]

But for the ones with worse joysticks or poor gunnery skills, they have a second chance before the poor target finds out there  is someone sending him to the ground.

 

 

Depends how far away you shoot. If you get close and aim well then it makes little difference if you have tracer or not.

 

 

Not to mention that at medium and longer ranges, tracer rounds have slightly different ballistic properties than normal rounds, which makes their path misleading because they don't actually trace the trajectory the majority of your rounds are following. (not sure if this is simulated in-game)

 

2ndly, a tracer round is not as lethal as a AP or HE round, which some would prefer to take out of their belt to maximize lethality at any given time.

 

3rdly, tracer rounds simply tell your opponents where you are when you fire from very VERY far away, and the color gives away which side you are on. There are plenty of times where I did not see the aircraft, (the aircraft wasn't even rendered ingame at that moment) but saw tracers arcing in the distance below me, to which I simply dived in that direction only to find a target I quickly obliterated... no doubt it has happened to me too, as I have fired a short burst and a half minute later, someone is bouncing me that I didn't see on my high six just moments earlier...

Edited January 12, 2016 by Xenunjeon88

[Gunsmith86]

the color gives away which side you are on.

You could´t trust the colors of the tracer for example the german 7,92mm SmK L´spur was used with yellow, orange, white, green, red, and as Glim´Spur in dark red.

The Luftwaffe used a variation of this one which is called SmK L`spur 100/600-v- ( It was also used with yellow, orange, white, green, red  colors the spacial tracer ignites at 100m and traces for 600m. This was important for fighters because the path of this round is much less misleading than a normal tracer and the tracer is burned out before the path is to far from the path of rounds whitout tracer. Another advantage is that it blinds the pilot less when the tracer ignite at 100m. )

 

which color a the ammunition has is writen on the case in which the amunition is delivered

 

[Brano]

There were ammo belt composition standards issued for every AF.According that production patterns were set up in ammo factories.So even some individuals craved for specific composition ( like no Tracers,only AP,only HE etc) it was always at expense of overall ammo type available for given unit.So there could be 2-3 masters of disaster flying with specific loadout,but the rest of the unit would have to live with what has been left for them. Same applies for tank or arty units.

[Wulf]

Some individuals possibly were in a position to dictate the types of ammo they used but I very much doubt this was typical.  

 

In the military, you don't make 'unauthorized' modifications to weapons systems lightly - not if you don't want to find yourself in very serious trouble.  An aircraft armourer might take direction from a pilot, up to a point, but if he was being asked to do something that fell outside normal operating procedure, he would almost certainly expect proper authorization before taking any action because, at the point where deviations are made, he become answerable.  I'd be a bit surprised if this type of action (changing a load-out) could be authorized at anything less than CO level, and even then, a CO may feel it desirable to push the request further up the chain - just to cover his own ass in the event that something untoward happened.  The further up the chain it goes, the less likely the prospects for a positive response.