Possible solution for VVS disadvantage?

[Livai]

Did someone notice that players fly captured planes? I have seen a Bf-109 with VVS Markings on a Expert Server!

[JG5_Schuck]

I have to say, most of the 'Realistic settings' (!) servers I've been on,

its the Luftwaffe that's gets a beating.

Probably due to the much better load out for the VVS bombers (and to some extent fighters).

The 109 was a fighter, designed to fight other fighters. The armament was to weak for bombers, and take gun pods and its easy meat for a Yak pilot with a small E advantage.

And most of the 190 jocks I've seen take bombs.

So yes the Luftwaffe should be superior, (and the planes are), but for some odd reason most of the time this isn't true in game.

 

 

PS You could start the game with more VVS planes available (or more airfields), limit people to one plane, and make them have to fly a supply mission to get another if its destroyed? (I think that's possible?)

[Sgt_Joch]

I had a chance to play a lot of MP over the holidays, mostly on the official normal server. MP on most servers always seems to degenarate into furballs, that is the nature of the game. Most players do not have the time or inclination to join a squad and /or be able to take off at a set time.

 

However, one thing that might help would be to have more structured missions.

 

For example, you look at a typical LW mission in the fall of 42, you would have flight of 6-10 bombers flying at 2+km protected by a flight of fighters flying 1-2 km above them. The bombers flew in formation to protect each other and the fighters would drive away any enemy fighters that approached.

 

If you had a mission like that, where the overall aim is to protect/shoot down the bombers it would make things more interesting.

 

The bombers could be a core group of AI planes that other players could fly with to the target and back. The attacking fighters would have more of an incentive to bring along more firepower, i.e. 109 gondolas, 37mm Laggs to shoot down the bombers.

 

The LW fighters whether defending their own bombers or attacking enemy bombers would be able to make full use of BnZ tactics.

 

I know some servers have similar missions, but not everyone has access to them.

 

just my 2 cents.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

The superior plane is always the one that the other guy has ;-)

 

No disagreement there... Though that is in no way meant to invalidate any oddities/abnormalities that are present with the modeling of nearly all of the aircraft in the sim...

 

Regarding the LW/VVS the fact of the matter is this:

• The majority of BOS' 109/190 combat pilots are poor, definitely no JG4_Karaya or MK_MrX (I'm thinking of Barkhorn, Krupinski, Rall, Hartmann, etc.) and don't follow any of the strategic/tactical doctrine that made the LW so decisive and successful early in the campaign.
• The majority of the VVS' production deficiencies can't be/aren't modeled and the player can't be forced to follow the flawed strategic/tactical doctrine or to self-implement the "handicaps" that made the VVS so ineffective early on in the campaign.

With that being said the majority of BOS' players don't use Teamspeak, don't provide cover flights, aren't provided cover, follow no strategic/tactical doctrine and generally have no deeper interest than a quick air-quake... So yes Sharpe, we've seen the "superiority" of both air forces go "back and forth" in this sim and it doesn't have a damned thing to do with LW Ubermensch engineering or VVS-stronk Stalinwood. 

 

TL;DR: There are no superior aircraft. The simulation is reasonably imperfect. It all comes down to the pilot sitting in the computer chair.

 

EDIT: obligatory yakflaps comment

EDIT2: blah blah fw190 climbrate something something

Edited January 4, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

In the Fall of 1942 didn't the Luftwaffe diminish the amount of enormous formations over Stalingrad due to losses, instead resorting to marauder tactics picking off Soviet aircraft on take-off and landing and intercepting Soviet attack/bomber flights? I don't know much about this to be honest, I just recall a 32 GIAP (then 434 IAP, flying from Sovkhoz Stalingradskiy) entry from the end of September mentioning the pilots reported these changes since during the beginning of the month 434 IAP was intercepting droves of aircraft with escorts. I'm sure I could be wrong though

 

Either way, you don't necessarily need this kind of operation to have a decent multiplayer environment. Even if one single Il-2 or Pe-2 is going out to the fight, it is possible to take two fighters and cover it using scissors and eliminate the opposition through altitude tactics while allowing the bomber to go there and back. Soviet regiments often sent out bomber+pair packs for armed reconnaissance so this arrangement not only makes sense but is also easier to execute.

 

Even in an airquake server it's possible to make a difference using lone-wolf tactics, and sometimes sending out aircraft separately makes it easier to penetrate defences undetected. Yesterday I went on a Russian 1946 server and squeezed past one hell of a fighter screen in a single Hurricane with 500kg of bombs, strafed a column to the last bullet, went deep into the enemy lines until I was behind their airfield and headed for a group of shops, sinking a freighter then survived a 109 attack on final.

 

My point is, tactical warfare is often about doing the unexpected than following textbook effective tactics because any mildly organised enemy is prepared against textbook stuff, while creative ways out are tricky. If the enemy is prepared for lone intruders, attack in full force. If they are concentrating their fighters and bombers in one area, force them to spread out their resources and attack from all directions.

[KoN_]

Running isn't an option for VVS pilots.  That's probably why they're angry.

LOL . i like that . I wont go into details .

But from what i see VVS win 80% battles . And i am online  most nights .

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

LOL . i like that . I wont go into details .

But from what i see VVS win 80% battles . And i am online  most nights .

 

 

What I found in the past with large multiplayer squadron campaigns was that it wasn't so grim for the VVS pilots due to German 109/190 pilots having more of a responsibility towards completing their objectives, which meant defending/attacking caps, escorting Ju 87's / He 111's etc Which resulted in not so much high flying boom and zooming but rather on the deck nitty gritty fighting or just generally lower altitude fighting.

 

The Wings Of Liberty server is a good example of German 109/190 pilots focusing purely (not saying all) on zooming poor unsuspecting VVS pilots and not actually directly contributing to the objects. That's why the VVS normally always win. IMHO - Both sides need a system that would give fighters the incentive to escort bombers, defend objecctives etc which would contribute to their score more than just furballing randomly and instead create a more meaningful furball! Not sure how such a system would be implemented but it would be a start!

Edited January 4, 2016 by =69.GIAP=RADKO

[BraveSirRobin]

LOL . i like that . I wont go into details .

But from what i see VVS win 80% battles . And i am online  most nights .

 

Most online "battles" come down to who has the most suicide pilots flying their attack aircraft.  VVS probably has the best attack aircraft, so that side gets the most suicide pilots.  Ipso fatso, they "win" most battles.

[Dakpilot]

Trouble is an airforce/squadron is a team, it has orders and a structure, even when sent off for free hunt missions there was a tactical purpose.

 

To simulate an air war you also will have to simulate a unit, this will never happen in casual 'dogfight' servers, and it is not to be expected

 

If you want better historical representation then there are proper organized events, although BoS is yet to mature to the stage that they are mainstream

 

However it does seem good that there is recently much more interest in this aspect, and already people/squads are beginning to provide options for that style

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

Trouble is an airforce/squadron is a team, it has orders and a structure, even when sent off for free hunt missions there was a tactical purpose.

 

To simulate an air war you also will have to simulate a unit, this will never happen in casual 'dogfight' servers, and it is not to be expected

 

If you want better historical representation then there are proper organized events, although BoS is yet to mature to the stage that they are mainstream

 

However it does seem good that there is recently much more interest in this aspect, and already people/squads are beginning to provide options for that style

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Nothing wrong with a bit of incentive though right?

[DD_Arthur]

No disagreement there... Though that is in no way meant to invalidate any oddities/abnormalities that are present with the modeling of nearly all of the aircraft in the sim...

 

Regarding the LW/VVS the fact of the matter is this:

• The majority of BOS' 109/190 combat pilots are poor, definitely no JG4_Karaya or MK_MrX (I'm thinking of Barkhorn, Krupinski, Rall, Hartmann, etc.) and don't follow any of the strategic/tactical doctrine that made the LW so decisive and successful early in the campaign.
• The majority of the VVS' production deficiencies can't be/aren't modeled and the player can't be forced to follow the flawed strategic/tactical doctrine or to self-implement the "handicaps" that made the VVS so ineffective early on in the campaign.

With that being said the majority of BOS' players don't use Teamspeak, don't provide cover flights, aren't provided cover, follow no strategic/tactical doctrine and generally have no deeper interest than a quick air-quake... So yes Sharpe, we've seen the "superiority" of both air forces go "back and forth" in this sim and it doesn't have a damned thing to do with LW Ubermensch engineering or VVS-stronk Stalinwood. 

 

TL;DR: There are no superior aircraft. The simulation is reasonably imperfect. It all comes down to the pilot sitting in the computer chair.

 

EDIT: obligatory yakflaps comment

EDIT2: blah blah fw190 climbrate something something

 

Couldn't agree more

 

 

 

However it does seem good that there is recently much more interest in this aspect, and already people/squads are beginning to provide options for that style

 

 

 

Very true but wouldn't it be better if the game itself provided more options; in the shape of a proper coop mode?

[SYN_Mike77]

Nobody has "superior planes."

 

Yeah, that's the point I was making.

[Feathered_IV]

Further limiting player choices to try and shape gameplay is never going to work. If the purpose of this thread was to find ways of simulating the greater numbers of VVS aircraft then you would be much better off asking, how can we make it so that more more players will WANT to fly VVS?

Edited January 4, 2016 by Feathered_IV

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Yeah, that's the point I was making.

 

Sorry, looks like I somehow cut the latter half of the reply.

 

I understand the point you were making but I don't believe the devs have "nailed" anything - to say so would be counter-productive to the betterment of the simulation... The lack of "nailing it" has gotten us this far and I suspect with successive "not-nailing its" that things will mature and continue evolving... There are still nuances within the modeling that isn't correct - 3D models, flight models, ballistics models, ground models, atmospheric models, etc. and that's not "nailing it" for me... But with everything that doesn't get "nailed" the first time it seems that it comes back around being better than it was before.    

 

With that being said I, personally, have come to the conclusion that all-in-all the content we have is reasonably modeled.

• Playable? Check.
• Enjoyable? Check.
• Perfectly accurate? No.
• Reasonably accurate? Check.

Those three of the four things check out - looks good to me.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[KoN_]

At the moment its just a Dogfight server , until people can get their heads round the mission editor , we will be stuck with these types of servers , You will get shot down , out fly or out run , you have to land , and some are just waiting for that opportunity.

For me that bugs me , i cant do it , but some who maybe new to the flight sim world hang around and chase and never give up until your down  .  In real life alone chasing way into enemy territory ` you just wouldn't do it .

saying Axis aircraft  is way better ,  i disagree . full throttle 190 on the deck engine over heat , La-5 still kept up , = instant kill .

Axis aircraft cook .

Take the servers for what they are at the moment , but 80+ Squadron campaigns are along way off . Or are they . ..???

Edited January 4, 2016 by II./JG77_Con

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

One quick aspect that is overlooked about the supposed numerical superiority of the VVS is that until late 1943 they always kept most aircraft ready but half of these were kept in reserve, not in the air (not to mention that obviously not all of these were fighters, but that's a separate story).

 

For example, when a three-squadron regiment had 1st Squadron flying with four to eight aircraft, 2nd Squadron had a flight ready on reserve and 3rd Squadron itself had a flight ready for its next mission. If 1st Squadron's flight ran into a vastly superior enemy force or was taking casualties or needed to retreat or had two aircraft return with technical failure for example, the regiment commander would scramble 2nd Squadron's flight to cover for these situations. If stuff really went south, 3rd Squadron goes up too.

 

I'm sure you're thinking right now that this is bollocks and they were missing out on an opportunity to obtain air superiority quickly, but here's the deal: the people behind these decisions were officers severely burnt from the summer of 1941 when they sent out aircraft in droves only to have entire formations be decimated within seconds. Most of these poor results were due to a lack of proper coordination in the air and on the ground between fighter-fighter, fighter-bomber and bomber-bomber groups. Considering the radio situation was not even across different aircraft models, regiments and even within the same flight, there is some good reasoning behind this decision - anything more than 3-4 fighter flights plus a similar number of bombers flying together with limited radio communications is hard to make good use of, so better to send waves in similar numbers.

 

As the situation improved of course with better tactics and radios uniformly spread out across all fronts, this kind of conservative thinking was holding the VVS back, and (again) Pokryshkin's ascension to higher ranks allowed him to implement his vision of actively using the reserves into combat to overwhelm the enemy rather than battle in fair terms.

 

So in 1941/1942/1943, realism would be to double the Soviet slots then have half the players sit on the tarmac waiting for a flare

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

You say this, but Russians always win the matches. The number of fighters doesn't really matter when half of them are just flying around doing nothing.

that's because they do the missions, whereas the German side is stacked with one or two doing the missions the rest well there base raping Edited January 4, 2016 by 71st_Mastiff

[Willy__]

 

 

the rest well there base raping

 

Then join the german team and enjoy the "all-time airfields being attacked/vulched" by russian pilots. You say that german pilots keep base raping, but every single time I join an online server, at least one (if not more) german airfield is being attacked.

[Nicol21]

I notice that base raping is common habit for LW pilots on DED expert for past few days I have spent over there...

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Well I am one of those flying bombers, and I have no escort ever. There might be a TS around , but very seldom used by VVS players. English speaking that is. I really do not care about the disadvantage, what I care about is 109 flyers complaining about sniper gunners the very few times I manage to shoot down one.

Because this topic is about the same. If a fighter pilot do not get the kills he want, or worse get shot down. There is always a complaint about the sniper gunners need to be fixed , or the FM must be wrong. Too accurate flak.

And when I shoot down a fighter with my fixed guns, the fighter pilot most likely disconnect. But still they want me around long enough to Finnish me off- They expect me to fly straight and level as easy target.

I like getting attacked, I like the attempt of trying to survive against all odds. We all make choices on what we fly, we knows the downs and ups.

My point is, do not make every topic a trench war, there is always a chance one of these topics make this game more playable in our servers, it is for the best to all

Hey man, I fly attackers a lot. If I put what I am, where I am, where I'm going, and what my target ALT is, I'll usually get some sort of coordination between people on my team.

I also try to be sneaky going in, and out of a target, but I get that's a lot harder in a bomber than it is in an attacker.

As for this thread, I knew it would be a train wreck when I saw the title. Some great bait.

[YSoMadTovarisch]

The Wings Of Liberty server is a good example of German 109/190 pilots focusing purely (not saying all) on zooming poor unsuspecting VVS pilots and not actually directly contributing to the objects. That's why the VVS normally always win. IMHO - Both sides need a system that would give fighters the incentive to escort bombers, defend objecctives etc which would contribute to their score more than just furballing randomly and instead create a more meaningful furball! Not sure how such a system would be implemented but it would be a start!

 

 

Now remove the clouds over combat area and we'll see. Do you know that because of the clouds German fighters can't fight effectively, and if they stay low they get murdered right? Now add in the "odd" energy retention on the Yak with flaps.

 

Please get off your high horse.

Edited January 5, 2016 by GrapeJam

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Flying alone in a VVS plane is extremely difficult. You have to fly low and fly sneaky and you have to be prepared to take a beating. If you want to succeed in VVS you have to get on TS and fly with at least 2 to 3 mates. Send 1 or 2 players up high and when they find bandits they spiral down to the ground where their teammates wait. Once the krauts are on the deck.... BINGO.

 

If I want to fly solo, I take a 109 and stay high... pretty simple. It is very doable to survive in a 109 on your own but not so much in a yak.

 

The clouds are ALWAYS low in this game, that is already a big advantage for the VVS. Turn and burn on the deck under the clouds and the VVS are going to win hands down where even the IL2's get in on the turkeyshoot fun. I've even been nailed once or twice by p40s on the deck where the 109 is extremely vulnerable.

 

Overall the 109 is king but the yak is very competetive in most situations and I personally feel the devs have got it pretty close. With an E advantage, the yak is going to win most engagements.The PE2 is a beast but with the arrival of the 110 the map wins have increased dramatically for the LW and I think the JU88 is going to make the Waffers even more successful when it gets to cyberspace.

 

 

 

My opinion.... blah blah blah.

[Livai]

From my experience if I fly Normal or Expert Server I see on Normal Server that the Germans take advantage. Funny on Normal Servers somehow it works that Germans known how to fly and take advantage. But if I jump into a Expert Server I see how the VVS take advantage. Hmmm what could be the problem here are here the difficult setting the point that they not see the enemy marked or all Germans fly around the map and do not known where the battlefield is?

 

And what I notice is that if I fly on a Expert Server over VVS airfields there is a empty space no players around to shoot them down but if I do the same on a German airfield I found a lot easy kills.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

And what I notice is that if I fly on a Expert Server over VVS airfields there is a empty space no players around to shoot them down but if I do the same on a German airfield I found a lot easy kills.

 

Interesting.... maybe the Russians are more adept at watching for vulching and clear the area as soon as they can.

[Livai]

Interesting.... maybe the Russians are more adept at watching for vulching and clear the area as soon as they can.

 

Thats the point where I get angry. I fly the long way to their airfields to shoot some VVS down. No planes with landing lights on around the airfields, no planes that start or land, just nothing just a big empty space where only the flak shoot at you. This is not the first time that I notice this. It is almost everytime that I see this. No fun to fly German planes if you are thinking about easy kills and vulching.

 

Not sure what the Germans do wrong? Why are Germans easy to vulching?

Edited January 5, 2016 by Superghostboy

[beepee]

This all depends on server settings surely?

 

From memory there is an Coalition-balance checkbox in the advanced D-Server options.

 

And all this talk of "Superior" this or that, it's the pilot, not the plane. Wing up, get smart about how you fight.

 

Unless of course you love the air-quake circle jerks under 1000ft...if that's you, then carry on.

Edited January 5, 2016 by beepee

[7.GShAP/Silas]

that's because they do the missions, whereas the German side is stacked with one or two doing the missions the rest well there base raping

 

Replace "base raping" with "jousting above the coulds" and you would be correct.

 

 

 

Now remove the clouds over combat area and we'll see. Do you know that because of the clouds German fighters can't fight effectively, and if they stay low they get murdered right? Now add in the "odd" energy retention on the Yak with flaps.

 

Please get off your high horse.

 

 

How many Axis pilots gritted their teeth and flew at the low altitude demanded of them in order to protect their ground attack comrades, destroy the enemy and fight the WAR?  You might get tired of a similar cloud level, but it's not a snowstorm.  There would be no choice.  The Luftwaffe did not only fly in clear skies.

 

Regardless, I look above me and notice clear blue sky plenty of the time.  And the clouds don't have red stars on their undersides.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Silas

[YSoMadTovarisch]

How many Axis pilots gritted their teeth and flew at the low altitude demanded of them in order to protect their ground attack comrades, destroy the enemy and fight the WAR?  You might get tired of a similar cloud level, but it's not a snowstorm.  There would be no choice.  The Luftwaffe did not only fly in clear skies.

 

Regardless, I look above me and notice clear blue sky plenty of the time.  And the clouds don't have red stars on their undersides.

Yeah, the problem is it always cloudy, and the clouds in BoS , specifically on WOL server, are pretty bizzare tbh.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, my shot

[KoN_]

that's because they do the missions, whereas the German side is stacked with one or two doing the missions the rest well there base raping

Yep that's me doing the missions ` all alone strafing art in my 190 being jumped on by three vvs . Got no chance .

As soon as you fire your cannons its like a Christmas tree lighting up , Can be seen for miles .

VVS play a far better game , they CAP missions Obj and do missions Obj.

LW ` well they all want to be an Ace in a day .

Edited January 5, 2016 by II./JG77_Con

[TheElf]

Dear Community and Developers team,

 

the situation in MP sessions is often that the number of fighters is balanced on both sides or even in favor of the German side.

This is entirely disappointing for at least one party of the game, mostly the russian planes that are being shot down so easily in this situation.

 

Let's be honest, the most important factor that prevented total slaughter of the VVS airforce is the numerical superiority! The germans couldn't replace their aircraft and pilots in a way the russians could, as well as german tactics were forced more and more into hit and run tactics instead of agressive and risky dogfights to avoid high losses.

 

Until this isn't guaranteed by the Multiplayer mechanics the mp sessions won't be much of a thrill for a F-4 climbing away and a total dissapointment for the Lagg-3 (that was only effective in numerical superiority, if ever ;-) )

 

I would like to suggest the introduction of a respawn delay that is bigger on the Luftwaffe's side. That will make losses much more crippling because of the jamming german resupplies... Finally it would be a punishment for Stuka pilots that rather crash their aircraft or even going suicidal instead of taking the risk and time to return to their airfields!

Just think about supply waves that could be destroyed starting on the ground if no airspace cover is present over the airfield, i would love it!

 

Also, let's consider playing with fixed numerical superiority, that could be a server-maintained ratio of 3/2 in favor of the VVS.

 

It would make organizing fighter escort for german bomber missions crucial - but not always possible :-P

 

Hope I am not the only one to support those gameplay changes... think about the depth of that experience...

 

 

I like where your heads at, but in my experience as a game designer, its hard to legislate the fickle human mind.  Players will just quit a server when they can't do what they want,  What?  no BF-109F-4 with a removed headrest?  "[Edited] this, I'm out"

 

Its also problematic when you are flying with squad-mates and you can't join the side everyone showed up to the fly because there are 20 empty server slots, but only 2 on the side the group wants to play.  "[Edited] this I'll play DCS tonight..."

 

Finally, you can't legislate the "I only fly German because I am REALLY interested in the Luftwaffe, and I don't like the VVS plane-set"  Translation -->  I can't be successful in a plane that I have to work hard in so I won't fly VVS and will quit the game rather than try or learn something new or balance the teams.

 

The real answer is to shame people who are one trick ponies into a fairplay-lets-share-our-toys-with-everyone-else sort of attitude that makes the experience better for all.

Replace "base raping" with "jousting above the coulds" and you would be correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Two entirely different things, but both are valid.  If they aren't base raping, they are in the moronosphere sucking O2 looking for tiny dot down at 4k that they can't bounce from relative safety.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Bearcat

[Libel]

While the teams are so uncoordinated as they are in WoL and similar servers, there's no need for a 3/2 split. Most of the time the VVS win on the basis of having better, more coordinated ground attackers who win the matches straight out.

In coordinated games, then the fighter superiority for the Russians may then become a little more important - but couple that with relative pilot skill, and it won't be an issue. The main reason that the VVS was so outclassed historically was because Luftwaffe pilots were better trained than the VVS pilots.

[Olt_Kloetenburg]

To explain my point...

 

I fly both sides, preferably either Bf-109F4 or Yak-1.

 

For me it is much harder to stay alive in the Yak as there is no joker but turning tighter than the german does.

 

I fly with a wingman some time on WoL server. That really changes my experience, you are right. Nevertheless I must say that in general the Bf-109 and Fw-190 decide to enter and exit the fight!

Shooting down a capable hard-turning pilot in a 109 is possible but nowhere near an easy prey. But if he sets the sails for the homebase or just climbs away, there is no red wing to follow him.

 

Bf-109 and Fw-190 are in nearly every situation I can think of capable of climbing or speeding into advantage.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I have to say, most of the 'Realistic settings' (!) servers I've been on,

its the Luftwaffe that's gets a beating.

Probably due to the much better load out for the VVS bombers (and to some extent fighters).

The 109 was a fighter, designed to fight other fighters. The armament was to weak for bombers, and take gun pods and its easy meat for a Yak pilot with a small E advantage.

And most of the 190 jocks I've seen take bombs.

So yes the Luftwaffe should be superior, (and the planes are), but for some odd reason most of the time this isn't true in game.

 

 

PS You could start the game with more VVS planes available (or more airfields), limit people to one plane, and make them have to fly a supply mission to get another if its destroyed? (I think that's possible?)

 

No one will listen to the voice of reason.....

 

It's simple, fly co-ops with correct load outs and the right balance of aircraft on each side to reflect the real war and it will pan out just the same as IRL most likely....

[DD_Arthur]

No one will listen to the voice of reason.....

 

 

 

Unfortunately in this case the voice of reason is factually incorrect.  The 109 is an interceptor, designed to shoot down bombers.  It's armament was heavier and more effective than any of its contemporaries. 

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

In regards to the OP, I usually fly the side with the lower number of people.  Most of the time I fly Russian as a result.  Sometimes this is at a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 disadvantage.  That being said, I still would not like a fixed percentage of German/Russian.  I think that would turn away squad members, etc.  The planes are what they are and the German fighters are superior in many ways.  This doesn't mean the Russian ones aren't worth flying.

 

As far as which side wins, from what I see, the stats for December show this about even in WOL and the Axis winning in DED (fave).

 

As far as fur balls, these can easily be avoided.  There is also the option of taking a bomber and going for objectives.  Sometimes I get an escort by an unknown friendly.  Very nice indeed.  I happen to survive the majority of bomber sorties.

 

I may be wrong but I have the impression that some are in a rut of flying the same side and planes.  If so, why not mix it up a little.  I see no reason not to have fun.

[JtD]

Unfortunately in this case the voice of reason is factually incorrect.  The 109 is an interceptor, designed to shoot down bombers.  It's armament was heavier and more effective than any of its contemporaries.

The design was supposed to be an air superiority fighter. The early Luftwaffe clearly didn't have the luxury of fielding several designs with particular roles like interceptor. It certainly was used in that role. The only periods were the fixed armament of the 109 was average to above average when compared to other fighters was in 1940 with the later E models and again in late 1944/1945, with the standard use of the MK108 in some models. Other than that, the very early machine gun variants and the mid war 1 20mm cannon plus a couple of machine guns weren't above average, certainly not "heavier and more effective than any of its contemporaries". See Fw190 for in house competition or Hawker fighters for the RAF which all sported 4x20mm, roughly 3 times the fire power of the Bf109.

[Gump]

i dont think there is any way to make an MP server "fair" by forcing certain conditions

.

--> number of players vary, so conditions/strategies change.

--> players are not all centrally commanded/coordinated (as would be IRL), so "conditions" arent used as intended.

--> players on same team unaware of what others are doing (TS isnt used that much, and even when it is, there are different groups/languages).

--> players dont have same time entry or commitment to game. IRL pilots were committed and commanded.

.

regarding advantage/wins:

--> german fighters are superior to VVS. Yak is the only VVS close to competitive. if (expert) game has low population, and tends towards a2a fights, german wins (unless mrx or arhangel shows up for vvs).

--> VVS attackers are superior to german attackers. if the game becomes very populated to allow many attacker flights, the VVS gain the advantage.

---> heavy bombers... hmmm... hard to beat that uberbomb of the germans' 111. but the pe2 can be used as an attack plane also, so it's kind of a tradeoff.

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personally, id like to see the coders add an LA5FN model, that could be used wherever mission builders desire to 'even up' the VVS' dogfight opportunities. sure, it's not historically correct, but then, that wouldnt be the point.

.... as it is, i think it's obvious that the german fighters command the a2a space, and the yak is the only possible way to maybe survive for the vvs. the lagg and la5 are just too outclassed to hope for anything other than random luck (or numbers)

Edited January 8, 2016 by Gump

[DD_Arthur]

The design was supposed to be an air superiority fighter. 

 

 

The design of the '109 was formulated in the early/mid 'thirties along with its contemporaries the Spitfire and Hurricane.  The phrase "air superiority fighter" was not coined until after WW2.

 

The whole theory of airpower throughout the greater part of the inter-war years was based on the threat of strategic bombing.  Pursuit aircraft had a minor role in this theory especially as during the late nineteen twenties materials technology caught up with engine design, hydraulics and an increasing understanding of aerodynamics.

 

This enabled bomber design to start outstriping contemporary pursuit aircraft.  They could simply fly higher and faster.  Germany may have been strapped for cash in the 'thirties but it managed to produce this in 1932;

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_70

 

It was faster than any existing biplane fighter.  Similar advanced designs started to appear on drawing boards across Europe.  Politicians started to accept the theory of strategic bombing and the threat of mass civilian casualties as inevitable.   As the thirties drew on and the threat of war became an increasing reality there was a public outcry of concern which prompted the design and funding of new aircraft to intercept high flying bombers.

 

At this time incoming bombers could only be detected by ground observation or accoustically, therefore endurance and manoeuvrability were sacrificed for rate of climb, top speed and the ability to deliver the largest weight of lead against the target in the shortest time possible.  All these new designs settled around low wing monoplanes of generally monocoque construction with water cooled, inline engines.

 

The British decided to mount their fighters with as many rifle calibre machine guns as they could carry.  Even at the time this was recognised as a dubious weapon against a modern, fast bomber.  Germany gave their fighter the option of a twenty millimetre cannon equipped with explosive shells that really could tear a contemporary bomber apart - as the Luftwaffe proved one clear morning over the Heligoland Bight in December 1939.

 

In the original design brief of all these aircraft, the capability of engaging other fighters was either a secondary consideration or wholly ignored.     

Edited January 8, 2016 by DD_Arthur

[ShamrockOneFive]

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personally, id like to see the coders add an LA5FN model, that could be used wherever mission builders desire to 'even up' the VVS' dogfight opportunities. sure, it's not historically correct, but then, that wouldnt be the point.

.... as it is, i think it's obvious that the german fighters command the a2a space, and the yak is the only possible way to maybe survive for the vvs. the lagg and la5 are just too outclassed to hope for anything other than random luck (or numbers)

Talk about using a sledgehammer to try and fix things! The La-5FN is far ahead in performance compared to the German fighters available.

 

The La-5 has the performance but its not great in a twisting fight. Its a specialists fighter... the Yak-1 is the all rounder that keeps up fairly well. If anything is added then it would be contemporary Yak models: Yak-7B, Yak-1B, Yak-9... the later two were introduced during the winter portion of the battle. The improved La-5F and then much improved La-5FN were introduced towards the middle of 43.

 

To some degree, folks have to accept that this a historical simulator and understand that this was the situation the VVS was in at the end of 1942. Their aircraft are competitive but very frequently not superior.