Possible solution for VVS disadvantage?

[Olt_Kloetenburg]

Dear Community and Developers team,

 

the situation in MP sessions is often that the number of fighters is balanced on both sides or even in favor of the German side.

This is entirely disappointing for at least one party of the game, mostly the russian planes that are being shot down so easily in this situation.

 

Let's be honest, the most important factor that prevented total slaughter of the VVS airforce is the numerical superiority! The germans couldn't replace their aircraft and pilots in a way the russians could, as well as german tactics were forced more and more into hit and run tactics instead of agressive and risky dogfights to avoid high losses.

 

Until this isn't guaranteed by the Multiplayer mechanics the mp sessions won't be much of a thrill for a F-4 climbing away and a total dissapointment for the Lagg-3 (that was only effective in numerical superiority, if ever ;-) )

 

I would like to suggest the introduction of a respawn delay that is bigger on the Luftwaffe's side. That will make losses much more crippling because of the jamming german resupplies... Finally it would be a punishment for Stuka pilots that rather crash their aircraft or even going suicidal instead of taking the risk and time to return to their airfields!

Just think about supply waves that could be destroyed starting on the ground if no airspace cover is present over the airfield, i would love it!

 

Also, let's consider playing with fixed numerical superiority, that could be a server-maintained ratio of 3/2 in favor of the VVS.

 

It would make organizing fighter escort for german bomber missions crucial - but not always possible :-P

 

Hope I am not the only one to support those gameplay changes... think about the depth of that experience...

Edited January 4, 2016 by satch93

[Guest deleted@50488]

Looks OK to me!

[TP_Jacko]

Not an easy answer. It is possible for the mission builder to limit the number of available aircraft at each airfield if they wanted to. I imagine though that the F-4 pilot is quite happy to Zoom away as you say and not be disappointed at all.  I think that pilots need to look first at their own tactics online before looking for a game fix. A single LaGG low flying is asking for trouble. Flying as groups coordinated, join a squad, get on TS, fly  with a Yak section for top cover  would help I think.  Part of the challenge of flying the LaGG is knowing its disadvantages, it certainly does not stop some pilots getting kills

[[CPT]milopugdog]

You say this, but Russians always win the matches. The number of fighters doesn't really matter when half of them are just flying around doing nothing.

[StG77_Kondor]

You say this, but Russians always win the matches. The number of fighters doesn't really matter when half of them are just flying around doing nothing.

 

Bingo. Check out the stats for the most popular online server. The Russians always win every month. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that at all. I put it to a combination of better teamwork, pilots, and attack aircraft (even with the 110 - it's still not an IL-2). At high time for this server, teams tend to be pretty evenly spaced out. I was on yesterday and when it was full it was a solid ~40 per side. At evening time in EST, it is sometimes 2:1 Russian favor. But again, not that there's anything wrong with that. This is the nature of a DF server. 

 

I'd be interested to see in how a server, implementing some of your suggestions would do. Especially the one with a fixed numerical superiority. Most people who play this game and fly consistently are far and above better pilots than what the Russians were throwing out - even in 1942 (generally speaking). 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Didn't read: the VVS is at no disadvantage.

[L3Pl4K]

All VVS Fighters are from excellent quality, bettern than orginal from 2WK. You have the option to use Teamspeak, not every VVS Pilot has a radiotransmitter. You can outturn Bf109  with r. Flaps. This can always help you https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftkampftaktik#Die_Dicta_Boelcke

[SharpeXB]

VVS disadvantage?

 

I hear the Yak is a super über UFO wonder weapon that can fly at supersonic speed with its flaps down and hover on its prop like a helicopter shooting down Luftwaffe planes 1km above it.

Edited January 4, 2016 by SharpeXB

[BraveSirRobin]

Didn't read: the VVS is at no disadvantage.

 

Sure, if you ignore the fact that the 109 is superior to all Russian fighters in almost every way, then the VVS is at no disadvantage.

[Willy__]

 

 

Didn't read: the VVS is at no disadvantage.

 

 

+2

[Gunsmith86]

-For this improvment Developers would be needed:

 

Proberbly a better way to correct some of the problems whit to many players on one side and players flying around and doing nothing would be to give every player a mission when he has picked his plane. The player should not be forced to do this mission but he should get a big bonus in points for doing the mission. The mission should be presented either in stead of the loadingscreen or when he is loaded in his plane on a scribbling pad which has to be clicked away from the player. It should look like a historical mission briefing which assigns the player to fly patrol in grid [ #XY ] for 5 Min for aircover or as bomber pilot attack  train [ XY ]. Since the program knows that it has send a player whit bomber to attack a certain area. It could also send players that are starting later in a fighter in the same area whit the job to stay there for sometime and give aircover. Even better whould be if players whit bomber or fighterbomber could make a flight plan on a map where he sets his curse and target this map could be given from the program to fighter players so they know were there bombers fly and where they could help them.

The most important thing however is to inform every player directly how he could help to win the game.

 

If some of you have suggestion to improve this feel free to add something.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[Willy__]

 

 

Sure, if you ignore the fact that the 109 is superior to all Russian fighters in almost every way, then the VVS is at no disadvantage.

 

Lets also not ignore the fact that the game cant simulate a lot of things that made a lot of diference in air combat, like radios, rookie pilots, bad construction quality of aircraft, tactics, CEM (technochat spoils cem), and so on. In the end, one thing balances the other and we end what we have now, a VVS that is evenly matched with the Luftwaffe.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Sure, if you ignore the fact that the 109 is superior to all Russian fighters in almost every way, then the VVS is at no disadvantage.

 

Oh get off it for once. 

 

-snip-

 

Just think about supply waves that could be destroyed starting on the ground if no airspace cover is present over the airfield, i would love it!

 

-snip-

 

Ohhh, now I get it! Thread should be retitled "Reconfigure game/server balance so that I can ground-pound lightly armed German transport aircraft while they are on the ground in my IL-2... And Germans should take longer to respawn... And my team should have a 3:2 advantage against the Germans..."

Edited January 4, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[BraveSirRobin]

Lets also not ignore the fact that the game cant simulate a lot of things that made a lot of diference in air combat, like radios, rookie pilots, bad construction quality of aircraft, tactics, CEM (technochat spoils cem), and so on. In the end, one thing balances the other and we end what we have now, a VVS that is evenly matched with the Luftwaffe.

 

I agree that it can't simulate any of that.  None of which changes the fact that the 109 is superior to every VVS fighter in the game by a pretty wide margin.

Oh get off it for once. 

 

 

Why?  It's completely true.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Why?  It's completely true.

 

You'd have to be pretty dense to illusion yourself in to thinking that this thread was about approximating statistical information about engine performance, turn times, roll rates, etc... It's pretty obvious that it is not.

 

But we're both aware that I don't need to explain that to you - you're completely aware that this thread is NOT about statistical information.

[Willy__]

 

 

Why?  It's completely true.

 

 

And its also completely historical. And besides, the current Yak is pretty much even with the 109. Each with his own strenghts.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

It seems that since the VVS wins matches so frequently we will actually have to account for the following changes to improve my enjoyment of the game:

• All VVS pilots must fly blindfolded with mouse controls. (Incompetent pilots.)
• All VVS pilots must remove their CPU fan. (Random engine failures.)
• All VVS pilots must fly with one bad stick of RAM. (Intermittent equipment failures.)
• All VVS pilots must cut, with scissors, the line-in for their microphone. (Lack of radio equipment/failures.)
• All VVS pilots must smear motor oil over their monitor. (Poor glass/perspex visibility.)
• All VVS pilots must fly from inside a heated oven or from inside a walk-in freezer. (Poor temperature regulation.)

Edited January 4, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[BraveSirRobin]

You'd have to be pretty dense to illusion yourself in to thinking that this thread was about approximating statistical information about engine performance, turn times, roll rates, etc... It's pretty obvious that it is not.

 

But we're both aware that I don't need to explain that to you - you're completely aware that this thread is NOT about statistical information.

 

No, the thread is about trying to compensate for the VVS disadvantage, which you're trying to pretend does not exist.  I've flown both the 109 and VVS aircraft online.  The VVS are definitely at a disadvantage.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

People join servers to fly alone and get themselves shot down attacking an enemy airfield.

 

That's why you are in disadvantage.

[JtD]

I think a generalized approach will not work. Specific aircraft are better than others, in specific roles. Also a "respawn" timer is pretty bad, we've had this in Il-2:1946, and the players simply left the server to play elsewhere.

 

There's a brilliant way to account for anything, you can balance everything right to where you want it to be - it's called co-op.

Edited January 4, 2016 by JtD

[TP_Jacko]

Hello Gunsmith86, I think what you would like to try is the old Coop style missions with pilot v AI. You have a dedicated team with a clear objectve, slight drawback with BoS is that AI numbers are limited to about 12 aircraft. Tangmere Pilots do this on a Sunday campaign.

[Quax]

I see russian side winning most of the time. At least when object oriented flying is forced via tank advance missions etc

[YSoMadTovarisch]

Assuming that the VVS planes in BoS are correctly modelled....

 

Assuming that there're no strange clouds that are 500m thick and cover the whole combat area at 1km.....

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello satch93,

 

Attacking airbases is just about the most dangerous thing you can do in this sim, no matter which side you choose. As for the other combat areas, at the moment LW fighters tend to fly high to maximize their advantages so if you are flying for the VVS, flying low can increase your chances of survival. Now that we have the 109E and 110 in the game, we might start to see more German aircraft at lower altitudes but in the end, it's nearly always better to fly as a pair/group and use teamspeak or other voice app.  

 

Good hunting,

=CFC=Conky

Edited January 4, 2016 by CFC_Conky

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

No, the thread is about trying to compensate for the VVS disadvantage, which you're trying to pretend does not exist.  I've flown both the 109 and VVS aircraft online.  The VVS are definitely at a disadvantage.

 

You've stated throughout many threads that the things I've listed above can't be modeled in a simulator... With that being said, it would seem that you are agreeing with me that the VVS are at no tactical disadvantage, aside from pilot skill, because the majority of their historical disadvantages can't be modeled in a software product. It can't really be both ways, can it? 

 

I am genuinely unsure what is so difficult to understand about that... Albeit, I am perfectly aware you beat the bee's nest whenever an opportunity would present itself.   

 

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Assuming that there're no strange clouds that are 500m thick and cover the whole combat area at 1km.....

 

Mind that you should be flying at 200m altitude, furballing in your G-2 to maximize the enjoyment that VVS pilots get from playing the simulator... 

Edited January 4, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[Gunsmith86]

Hello Gunsmith86, I think what you would like to try is the old Coop style missions with pilot v AI. You have a dedicated team with a clear objectve, slight drawback with BoS is that AI numbers are limited to about 12 aircraft. Tangmere Pilots do this on a Sunday campaign.

 

No a random generated mission for players of both side no coop needed for that. If possible missions from one side should influence mission assigned to the other side.

[BraveSirRobin]

You've stated throughout many threads that the things I've listed above can't be modeled in a simulator... With that being said, it would seem that you are agreeing with me that the VVS are at no tactical disadvantage, aside from pilot skill, because the majority of their historical disadvantages can't be modeled in a software product. It can't really be both ways, can it? 

 

I'm strictly referring to the fighter aircraft performance.  VVS are at a large disadvantage.  During the war they had even more disadvantages due to things that can't be modeled in the game.  The fact that those things are not modeled does not give the VVS side an advantage.  It just means that the disadvantage in the game is not as great as it was in real life.

 

I am genuinely unsure what is so difficult to understand about that..

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

All personal stuff asides, as people have highlighted the major deficiencies of the VVS were on the doctrine side of things - namely tactics and lack of two-way radios. Construction problems and etc. were not as common as stated, these were predominant in early series of aircraft but no Il-2 ride is of first series. These problems existed in the first LaGG/Yak/MiG/La-5 series but even the La-5 in BoS is from Gorky rather than Tbilisi where the initial problems came about.

 

It's impossible to simulate these factors because obviously you can't dictate a flying style and also it's too general. If you enforced poor tactics and such it would also be an unfair generalisation since there were excellent regiments over Stalingrad and Moscow like 434 IAP, which had been flying in pairs and using modern vertical combat tactics since March 1942 with many regiments doing so since 1941. BoM and BoS were transitional periods where you had regiments being wiped out to the last aircraft and pilot while others were racking up 6 kills to no loss throughout the same day.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I'm strictly referring to the fighter aircraft performance.  VVS are at a large disadvantage.  During the war they had even more disadvantages due to things that can't be modeled in the game.  The fact that those things are not modeled does not give the VVS side an advantage.  It just means that the disadvantage in the game is not as great as it was in real life.

 

I am genuinely unsure what is so difficult to understand about that..

 

If three-quarters of your disadvantages are not modeled, cannot be modeled or otherwise I would surely call that an advantage.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[BraveSirRobin]

If three-quarters of your disadvantages are not modeled, cannot be modeled or otherwise I would surely call that an advantage.

 

You might have an advantage over a real VVS fighter pilot, but you definitely don't have an advantage over the BoS German fighter pilots who have aircraft that are superior to yours.  Nor should you have an advantage.  The German aircraft were better in real life and they're better in the game.

[Lusekofte]

Well I am one of those flying bombers, and I have no escort ever. There might be a TS around , but very seldom used by VVS players. English speaking that is. I really do not care about the disadvantage, what I care about is 109 flyers complaining about sniper gunners the very few times I manage to shoot down one.

Because this topic is about the same. If a fighter pilot do not get the kills he want, or worse get shot down. There is always a complaint about the sniper gunners need to be fixed , or the FM must be wrong. Too accurate flak. 

And when I shoot down a fighter with my fixed guns, the fighter pilot most likely disconnect. But still they want me around long enough to Finnish me off- They expect me to fly straight and level as easy target.

I like getting attacked, I like the attempt of trying to survive against all odds. We all make choices on what we fly, we knows the downs and ups. 

My point is, do not make every topic a trench war, there is always a chance one of these topics make this game more playable in our servers, it is for the best to all

[DD_Arthur]

There's a brilliant way to account for anything, you can balance everything right to where you want it to be - it's called co-op.

 

This.  The quicker we're given more multiplayer options the better.  It's already in RoF so the coding exists and we have the means to create missions.   Lets hope it's on the Dev's "to do" list.

 

It seems quite obvious now that there is a general desire for something more than just a dogfight server.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Unless MrX is on the server, no, VVS is at no disadvantage 

 

Joke aside, I don't see why VVS is at disadvantage with equal number.

Yes taken isolately their fighters are a bit inferior to the germans but the whole performs much better when it goes to dealing with map objectives.

 

Pe2 and Il2 are harder to shoot down that He111 and Ju87, and germans are at a disadvantage for protecting their attack aircraft because if their fighters want to keep their E advantage, it means a much looser protection. 

And in offense, less shooting opportunity if they want to stay alive and keep the escort in a weak position. That's probably one of the reasons (beetween some already mentioned here) for what VVS wins more often than the LW. 

[SYN_Mike77]

So now what we are seeing as the sim matures is that both sides are complaining that the other side has superior planes and the our side needs an upgrade.  Sounds to me like proof positive that the devs have nailed it and we can all move along, no more fm arguments to be had. (Until the next plane set of course!)

[BlitzPig_Bill_Kelso]

Flight simmers crack me up!

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

So now what we are seeing as the sim matures is that both sides are complaining that the other side has superior planes and the our side needs an upgrade.  Sounds to me like proof positive that the devs have nailed it and we can all move along, no more fm arguments to be had. (Until the next plane set of course!)

 

Nobody has "superior planes."

 

Edited January 4, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[SharpeXB]

Nobody has "superior planes."

 

The superior plane is always the one that the other guy has ;-)

[KoN_]

The whole MP experience for me  in this Sim , is that its a dogfight server . Nothing more . !!!

I have lost count how many times i have flown back to my own airfield being  pursued by angry VVS pilots .

Hardly anyone on these servers value their computer life's .

Team speak................ no one is on it .

Its such BS.

To be honest i don't enjoy it any more .

You can out fly one but not three .

The only thing that this game has got going for its self is .........MP.

And that still needs fixing . still no sound impacts .

Loose  `MP  and you loose the game .

[BraveSirRobin]

I have lost count how many times i have flown back to my own airfield being  pursued by angry VVS pilots .

 

Running isn't an option for VVS pilots.  That's probably why they're angry.