So, I have some P40 questions.

[BlitzPig_EL]

You old timers that know me, know that I am an unapologetic P40 fan boy.

 

I have loved the P 40 since I was a child.  That's just the way it is, and it's not going to change now in my sixth decade on this planet.  Heh.

 

So, I keep hearing that it is a worthless aircraft in this sim.   Is this because no one is flying it to it's strengths?  Poor modeling?  No one really flying it at all?  What?

 

Is no one using it in the ground attack role, one to which it is well suited?

 

Or is it a case of guys just taking it out lone wolf style and getting butchered because of that?

 

I'm mulling over the idea of purchasing BoM, because I want to fly my favorite plane. 

 

What's really going on with the P 40?

[Jade_Monkey]

I used it the other day mostly as a ground attack and i had a lot of fun. 

 

The biggest problem for me is that as soon as you start dogfighting, you are completely at the enemy´s mercy due to poor climb and acceleration characteristics.

 

I think nearly all other planes in the game do much better when it comes to dogfighting.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

It's probably the fighter that suffers the most from the devs Draconian interpretation of time limits of power regimes.

 

It's also very directional unstable making it difficult to aim at any input of roll due to inducing quite a bit of yaw.. I am aware the P-40E has directional instability problems, but to what degree I am not sure.

Edited December 31, 2015 by RoflSeal

[ShamrockOneFive]

Blitz! Your P-40 fandom is well appreciated I'm quite a fan of the Hawk series myself and I have to say that I haven't really spent a ton of time in the P-40 so far. What time I have spent with it suggests to me that its a good representation of the P-40. I wonder if it might see a few tweaks before release but I'm not qualified to speak to that.

 

It has all of the key points: It's damn fast in a dive, the 6x.50cals chew up enemy planes like nobody's business, it can take a bunch of hits and keep on going, its ground pounding and strafing abilities are excellent, and its a very steady gun platform. It also climbs slowly, its roll rate is slower than I expected, it can out turn a 109 but only for a very short period of time before its weight catches up with it, its directionally unstable and you have to fight it in some maneuvers with a lot of rudder. I think it has the good with the bad here.

 

Visually speaking its probably the most accurate P-40 model I've seen in a video game/simulation anywhere. Its beautiful.

 

And like you said... Ground attack role? It does it well. It has Russian rockets and bombs that it was fitted with in service there and it makes a great fighter-bomber. Its not going to turn and burn with the 109s or keep up with the 190s so its a little outmatched there but it does ok up against the earlier types like the Bf109E-7. Its not a "war winner" but its good and I'm going to enjoy spending some more time with it in ground attack missions as well as bomber intercepts.

Edited December 31, 2015 by ShamrockOneFive

[ShamrockOneFive]

Just to liven things up....

 

 

[StG77_Kondor]

Blitz! Your P-40 fandom is well appreciated I'm quite a fan of the Hawk series myself and I have to say that I haven't really spent a ton of time in the P-40 so far. What time I have spent with it suggests to me that its a good representation of the P-40. I wonder if it might see a few tweaks before release but I'm not qualified to speak to that.

 

It has all of the key points: It's damn fast in a dive, the 6x.50cals chew up enemy planes like nobody's business, it can take a bunch of hits and keep on going, its ground pounding and strafing abilities are excellent, and its a very steady gun platform. It also climbs slowly, its roll rate is slower than I expected, it can out turn a 109 but only for a very short period of time before its weight catches up with it, its directionally unstable and you have to fight it in some maneuvers with a lot of rudder. I think it has the good with the bad here.

 

Visually speaking its probably the most accurate P-40 model I've seen in a video game/simulation anywhere. Its beautiful.

 

And like you said... Ground attack role? It does it well. It has Russian rockets and bombs that it was fitted with in service there and it makes a great fighter-bomber. Its not going to turn and burn with the 109s or keep up with the 190s so its a little outmatched there but it does ok up against the earlier types like the Bf109E-7. Its not a "war winner" but its good and I'm going to enjoy spending some more time with it in ground attack missions as well as bomber intercepts.

 

Well said on all points. In full real matchups, where surprise is everything, if you can get a clean shot with your .50s on a 109, it's absolutely toast. 

 

The only thing I will add, is that the plane feels more affected by fuel load (full vs. near empty) than the other fighters. Sure 109s, etc feel a bit heavier with more fuel, but generally flies more or less the same. The P40's performance drop on full fuel is much worse, just based solely on personal feel.

 

Fly it in a similar style to a 190, keeping your speed up, taking advantage of excellent firepower, and it is a formidable plane. 

[Reflected]

It's not that bad

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thanks gents.

 

Well, I'm not too surprised that the P 40 on full fuel is affected more than a 109 or the light Russian birds, it probably has more on board than any fighter in the sim so far.  I'd guess that half fuel load on the Hawk would yield the same combat radius as a 109 on full fuel.  The same may be the case with the Mig 3, as it carried a lot of fuel too.

 

It's a hit and run plane, that's for sure.  That's how the AVG was successful with it against the agile Japanese Army planes they faced with it, and it makes sense that flying it like a 190 would work.

Kind of surprised about the roll rate, as that is one of the real features of the Hawk 75, 81 and 87 series.

 

Great screenshot Reflected!  I-16 as Ki 27.   HEHE!!

[Reflected]

1) In this sim the P-40 is often used in the role where it is the worst: 1 on 1 dogfight. Just avoid that if possible. However, it's a really rugged plane with extreme firepower which makes it well suited for ground attack missions. You can also fly defensive patrols and intercept intruding bombers and attack planes. Hit and run tactics work, provided you knock them down on the first pass, otherwise you can't do the "run" part :D

 

2) As mentioned above the devs have taken a very strict approach on engine limits, and the P-40 suffers the most of it. If you have any sources indicating real engine limits (not to confuse with advice written for the pilots) please share, and we might get it fine-tuned.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

1) In this sim the P-40 is often used in the role where it is the worst: 1 on 1 dogfight. Just avoid that if possible. However, it's a really rugged plane with extreme firepower which makes it well suited for ground attack missions. You can also fly defensive patrols and intercept intruding bombers and attack planes. Hit and run tactics work, provided you knock them down on the first pass, otherwise you can't do the "run" part :D

 

2) As mentioned above the devs have taken a very strict approach on engine limits, and the P-40 suffers the most of it. If you have any sources indicating real engine limits (not to confuse with advice written for the pilots) please share, and we might get it fine-tuned.

Engine limits currently are essentially pre-war limits set by Allison before the USA entered the War and pretty much when the V-1710-39 new and P-40D/E was new as well.

 

 

By December next year, data sheet has increased War Emergency Power to 56" for 5 minutes giving 1470hp (ingame engine time limits over 50" is 1-2 minutes)

 

Then there is this document talking about the RAAF boosting the engines to 66" (1745hp) in the Mediterranean and 70" (1780hp) in the Pacific with Allison agreeing its safe for up to 60" (1570hp) and any higher would set a bad precedent for other V-1710s that have a lower detonation point.

http://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/Allison%201710-39%20abuse.pdf

 

All refer to the same engine, V-1710-39 (F3R)

Edited December 31, 2015 by RoflSeal

[ShamrockOneFive]

Thanks gents.

 

Well, I'm not too surprised that the P 40 on full fuel is affected more than a 109 or the light Russian birds, it probably has more on board than any fighter in the sim so far.  I'd guess that half fuel load on the Hawk would yield the same combat radius as a 109 on full fuel.  The same may be the case with the Mig 3, as it carried a lot of fuel too.

 

It's a hit and run plane, that's for sure.  That's how the AVG was successful with it against the agile Japanese Army planes they faced with it, and it makes sense that flying it like a 190 would work.

Kind of surprised about the roll rate, as that is one of the real features of the Hawk 75, 81 and 87 series.

 

Great screenshot Reflected!  I-16 as Ki 27.   HEHE!!

 

I was surprised about the roll rate too. I don't know if some of the P-40 models had inferior roll rate because of one issue or another. The devs very specifically stated its the P-40E-1 and I'm assuming that most of the data that went into developing the flight model system is based on that.

 

My experience with IL-2 1946 suggested a higher roll rate but I don't know.

 

That aside its a ton of fun to fly IMHO. Definitely give BoM a look (if your not sure then wait for a sale).

[Reflected]

Brilliant Stuff, RoflSeal, thank you!

 

So currently we have:

 

 

Max continuous power: 39.5" at 2600 rpm

Max combat power: 43.5" at 2600 rpm, 30-minute limit
Emergency power: 50"+ at 3000 rpm, 1-2-minute limit

Cruise: 28" at 2200 rpm

 

But based on your source, it would be more realistic  to change it to:

 

 

Max continuous power: 39.5" at 2600 rpm

Max combat power:  44.2" at 3000 rpm, 15-minute limit
Emergency power: 50"+ at 3000 rpm, 5 minute limit

Cruise: 31" at 2280 rpm

 

And Emergency power would only be "activated" if the MP moves past 44.2, even if the RPM is as high as 3000 rpm. What do you think? I will present this to the devs.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Reflected

[BlitzPig_EL]

As to roll rates, the sources I have read give the early Hawk 81s (P40 A) a very high roll rate indeed, 135 degrees/sec at an astonishing 360mph IAS.

 

Later Hawk 87s are indeed slower in roll, but still no slouches in that department.   The one stat I have seen is for a P40 F that shows 95 deg/sec at 275mph IAS.

 

I don't know if there is any accurate way to measure them in the game itself.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

I should correct myself, WEP was set at 56" 3000rpm and Military Power time limits were increased from 5 to 15 minutes. There was no WEP setting in the Nov 41 datasheet

 

 

Brilliant Stuff, RoflSeal, thank you!

 

So currently we have:

 

 

But based on your source, it would be more realistic  to change it to:

 

 

And Emergency power would only be "activated" if the MP moves past 44.2, even if the RPM is as high as 3000 rpm. What do you think? I will present this to the devs.

I would assume so. That's how it works with the German fighters, e.g. Bf-109F-4, once you go past 1.3 ata you enter WEP.

 

Maybe an unlock can be getting a new manifold pressure guage that goes up to 75".

Edited December 31, 2015 by RoflSeal

[Cloyd]

It's complete crap, El. Don't bother.

 

Just kidding.

 

I got BoM just to fly around in the P40, the MiG, and the Emil. But I hardly ever do simulated combat anymore. Just go out for a Sunday ride once in a while. Others will have more informed opinions about its combat performance.

 

The P40 is sluggish and the roll rate is unspectacular compared to other planes, even with a small fuel load. I have no idea if it's accurate. Dive is great, but E loss is significant. Those that say fly it like the FW and you'll be OK are probably right.

 

But, I think you're stuck. Who else is modelling a P40 for you? As a Curtiss junkie, I think you'll end up buying it sooner or later. "I feel your pain."

 

Cloyd

Edited December 31, 2015 by Cloyd

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thanks Cloyd, good to hear from you again.

 

Does the early access play well with my Steam install?

 

I'm really out of the loop here.

[Sokol1]

If you buy BoM Early Access, the already released BoM planes run on your BoS install (MP, SP - minus in that "campaign").

[ACG_KaiLae]

The engine limits that roflseal has put up are consistent with information that the 8th air force developed with regards to allison engined P-38's...allison originally put out numbers that were simply too low and too conservative. Actual combat experience showed you could push them way higher and this is what was done by operational pilots.

[Yakdriver]

Jumped right into it, without any rtfm whatsoever, and am having a hard time squeezing anything more than 500hp out of the engine.
Yea. I suck.

500 Pounds of Stronk russian TNT plus 4 Rockets... winning
If you are a good shot and only need 4 ,50s, even more winning
if you then choose to carry almost 2,5k worth of ,50 ammo for the 4 guns...

 

Holey smokes. You could dish out some proper pain.
But one has to be damn good i recon.
no complaints except the engine so far (2 hours stick time)
 

[Cloyd]

Thanks Cloyd, good to hear from you again.

 

Does the early access play well with my Steam install?

 

I'm really out of the loop here.

Don't know. Mine is not Steam.

 

I think you'll be happy to know that the P40 "feels" heavy, unlike some others.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thanks again gents.

 

I'm edging ever closer to that "buy" button.

Edited January 1, 2016 by BlitzPig_EL

[II./JG77_Manu*]

But, I think you're stuck. Who else is modelling a P40 for you? As a Curtiss junkie, I think you'll end up buying it sooner or later. "I feel your pain."

 

Cloyd

VEAO is. P40F for DCS is coming very soon. Looking forward to compare those birds.

Of course it looks even worse there regarding adversaries. Hopefully something coming in that regard in the future.

[GP*]

VEAO is. P40F for DCS is coming very soon. Looking forward to compare those birds.

Of course it looks even worse there regarding adversaries. Hopefully something coming in that regard in the future.

It's probably just me, but the models that VEAO has been showing off just seem to look lower fidelity / more cartoon-ish to me. Again, I'm sure it's all in the eye of the beholder.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

It's probably just me, but the models that VEAO has been showing off just seem to look lower fidelity / more cartoon-ish to me. Again, I'm sure it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Models? I guess they only have one, which is in Beta module currently? So it's a little premature to rate them now...just look at the other moduls when they have been in beta. But anyway, don't wanna go off topic.

I doubt that the clickable cockpit DCS module will be lower fidelity then BoS. (at least FM wise)

[Reflected]

Thanks again gents.

 

I'm edging ever closer to that "buy" button.

 

Man, go for it. BoS is currently the best modeled WW2 combat environment, and they did a pretty neat job on the P-40 (except for engine limits). It's quite challenging to fly, so you will enjoy flying circuits without fighting too. Not to mention all the skins out there, and the skin template that comes with it. It's like virtual plastic modelling! 

 

But beware, it's one of the most challenging plane in game, and you won't just clear the skies of bogeys by a flick of your wrist.

 

[KoN_]

Thanks again gents.

 

I'm edging ever closer to that "buy" button.

IMHO , Wait for sale . That`s what ill be doing .

But there is still good fun to be had on-line ` maybe you should pop into the populated servers and see how things are.

I really want the E-7 and the Mc202 but $80 is too much for me .

Edited January 1, 2016 by II./JG77_Con

[7.GShAP/Silas]

If you wait for a sale on BOM, you'll be waiting a while.  Personally, I don't have that kind of patience.

 

 

As for the P-40, a few weeks ago I ran into a couple guys flying their P-40's together.  They were obviously comfortable flying with one another, had affection for the aircraft, and they seemed to adapt and overcome.  More obviously, they were having a lot of fun. So if they were, I think you can too.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Silas

[Original_Uwe]

Is there a chance that the devs are using the time limits on engine power to mirror the overall inferiority and incapability of the Russians to properly care for and equip western aircraft that had a level of precision engineering they were unfamiliar with? Such as low quality fuel, unskilled labor and maintenance crews, and inferior pilots?

That could make sense to me, as long as we get a western version of the same aircraft when the sun goes west.

[Matt]

So, I keep hearing that it is a worthless aircraft in this sim.

 

I would personally consider it to be the second worst Russian fighter in BoM/BoS, with the I-16 being worse (but there are people who prefer the I-16, i only prefer the I-16 for ground attack). But i'm not aware of any P-40 E being avaliable during the BoM, so it's more of a BoS plane and compared to the Russian BoS planes, it's definately the worst, mostly thanks to it's horrible climb rate (though loading less fuel and getting rid of the outer guns helps a little bit). So if you're interested in MP mostly, you might not even get the chance to fly it against the BoM planeset on some servers (if the servers stick to historical planeset, no idea if they plan to do that) and you'll be facing the BoS opposition. It might be able to get away, if you use WEP or dive, because that's basically its biggest advantage compared to the other Russian planes, but unless you have a significat energy advantage, your opponent should have no trouble dictating the fight.

 

The P-40 is still one of my favorite planes in BoM/BoS right now, but i wouldn't really want to fly it online against the BoS 109 or 190.

 

I also don't think it's that great in the ground attack role. It can carry one big bomb, but i prefer the 2x 100 kg bombs of the other Russian fighters and their centere line armament is better suited for ground attack, as are the ShVaks on the I-16 imho. It's also a very big target for AAA.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Matt

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Is there a chance that the devs are using the time limits on engine power to mirror the overall inferiority and incapability of the Russians to properly care for and equip western aircraft that had a level of precision engineering they were unfamiliar with? Such as low quality fuel, unskilled labor and maintenance crews, and inferior pilots?

That could make sense to me, as long as we get a western version of the same aircraft when the sun goes west.

 

 

Did the P-40 have a level of engineering that the Sovjet Air Forces were unfamiliar with?  Excepting low mass-production standards due to war circumstances.

[Original_Uwe]

Well I've read of issues providing the quality fuel needed by other lend lease aircraft like hurris and spits, lack of replacement parts due to supply issues, poorly trained ground crews etc.

I take it with a grain of salt as I do all that I read, but it's the only thing I can think of why the devs hampered the p-40 so much.

[Y-29.Silky]

Ever since they removed the manifold limiter, you'll be fighting your engine 90% of the time; way more than the Lagg's and La-5's had to do in real life.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Y-29.Silky

[LukeFF]

Is there a chance that the devs are using the time limits on engine power to mirror the overall inferiority and incapability of the Russians to properly care for and equip western aircraft that had a level of precision engineering they were unfamiliar with? Such as low quality fuel, unskilled labor and maintenance crews, and inferior pilots?

That could make sense to me, as long as we get a western version of the same aircraft when the sun goes west.

 

Nope

[Guest deleted@50488]

Among all of the fighters in BoS, the only one I may consider "strange" is the Yak-1 when used with flaps deployed in combat, and I do not even know if it is really wrong, since they are not fully deflected, but rather react to pressure on their surface and at hiogher speeds are only partially deployed.

 

Also, the aircraft performance degrades considerably when flaps are deployed, and it is really only useful on turning flight...

 

Whenever I pick any of the VVS fighters against Axis opponents, and of course it can simply be justified because I am a poor "pilot", I lose against them easily.... 

 

I have been practicing with the C.202, and, against VVS fighters, all of them, I have already scored a few great "victories", so, I am one of those who really do not see any "modelling" advantage on the VVS aircraft vs AXIS in il-2 BoS...