Let's be honest about BosBoM for once

[[GOAT]Spoutpout]

 

 

High speed maneuevrability not much of use in a dogfight.

 

Not if you rely on energy fighting, or even doing some diving attacks.

 

 

 

109s rollrate was slightly worse than that of the 190 at normal fighting speeds.

 

You should revise your definition of "slightly": http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg

FYI, the Bf-109 roll rate is worse than a Spitfire at all speeds.

 

A good roll rate allows you to quickly change directions, and by extension, doing effective defensive manoeuvres, and even being quite successful with scissors against many "apparently" nimbler opponents, like a Spitfire (which rolls better and turns tighter than a Bf-109).

 

 

 

Better turn makes up for the slightly inferior roll when scissoring.

 

Well nope. Maybe you should practice your scissors a little more. You may notice that the Fw-190 is very effective in this domain. Except against planes with very low stall speeds, like a Yak-1 with full flaps.

 

 

 

Dont have any info comparing diving capabilities.

 

The sturdy design of the Fw-190 allows it to dive at higher speeds than Bf-109. (Bf-109 max diving speed was something like 700 or 750 km/h, after that, there was some tiny issues with the plane )

On top of that, the control surfaces were far more responsive than Bf-109 ones, allowing it to eventually redress after a long dive.

 

Unfortunately, this is not as obvious in most situations, since a Force Feedback joystick is necessary to really feel that in game.

 

 

 

109 outclimbs 190 at all speeds and zooms better.

 

Nope Ze_Hairy is right, the Fw-190 keeps its energy better at high speed. Quite useful for running away from a disadvantageous fight: high speed climb.

 

 

 

109 also keeps energy better in tight turns.

 

Yep, that's why the Bf-109 is better a low speed sustained turnfight.

 

 

 

109 just has the performance edge over 190 and would dominate it in a 1on1 fight.

 

Only above 5000m.

 

 

 

190 has soem fancy cockpit improvements thats bout it.

 

Fancy ?! Way better visibility. A thing Bf-109 never managed to get during the entire war...

And of course, Fw-190 has an automatic engine management, was way sturdier, has a better armament (one cannon may be enough for you, but from the point of view of real pilots, the more cannons = the better), and was easier to handle.

 

But yeah, Bf-109 is better, right ? Fw-190 is more effective in many situations than the Bf-109 (and, it's kinda normal since it's a newer plane), that's it.

Fw-190 is bad at high alt, but since it's the eastern front, the majority of the fights are taking place below 4000m.

[Mac_Messer]

At any rate, if you set up a normal Bf109 vs. a normal Fw190, where the advantages you describe are true, and take two gamers of the same skill level, the 109 might win 10 out of 10. If you took two pilots of the same skill level, this is just not true.

It begs a question - is the fw190 doomed to stay inferior to the 109 in sim gaming? It is undeniable that in the online play we have now, the scenarios tend to favor the 109 good sides and ignore 190 good sides. So while the 190 might have been better IRL here where we join a server and fly from our chairs, it is pretty much inferior in every way?

[Mac_Messer]

 

While Bf 109 was outturned at high speed, outrolled at all speeds, outdived with ease, outclimbed at high speed, outzoomed, left in dust at excessive energy retention game, much less solid, slower at low-mid altitude from january 43 until the end of the war, was harder on the stick at all speeds, possessed a weaker armament, had a worse cockpit visibility... well in fact 109 was a toy when compared to 190.

 

Sµch-A-Superi0r-Fight3r.

The question is - which aircraft`s good and bad sides get to play a part in online play the most? Experience tells me that the 109 gains in it, because it has the strenghts that actually matter vs the enemy.

 

I would love to lighten the 190 as much as I can every time - to make the best use of its engine power, good visibility and great high speed maneuverability. Sadly, all I ever got was a heavy aircraft with plenty of ammo and great dive/roll characteristics that didn`t matter much when you ended up in a 2v2 against Yaks @ 2000m.

Maybe we could set up a special server just for Luftwhiners featuring Me 262s vs Tiger Moths and that should stop all the complaining. Not sure where we will get players to fly the biplanes though...

Those Tigers would outturn the hell out of those Schwalbes!

[SharpeXB]

Those Tigers would outturn the hell out of those Schwalbes!

Über planes! Arcade Flight Models!

Edited December 29, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Mac_Messer]

If I want to make a SIM i have to make it correct. Not balance.

If i want to avoid noone playing a sim where one side HAD the superior planes i cannot simply ignore this and model they planes of one side better. If i do so i am no SIMdeveloper. Then I am a GAMEdeveloper.

The right decision would have been to start with a diffrent scenario. More even or in reality better performing russian airplanes. Not just bend reality by modeling planes the way they are modeled right now.

If I were the devs, I would do exactly as they are doing it now. When you get to introduce a one theater of operations game, you need to make sure both sides would want to keep playing. Gradually I would introduce 2-4 crap planes for every side when releasing each of my expansions. So later, when there are already 2 or 3 titles released, there would be so many different variants, that people would recreate the real stuff by themselves (this actually happened in the original IL2, but after it got extended).

[Mac_Messer]

But yeah, Bf-109 is better, right ? Fw-190 is more effective in many situations than the Bf-109 (and, it's kinda normal since it's a newer plane), that's it.

Fw-190 is bad at high alt, but since it's the eastern front, the majority of the fights are taking place below 4000m.

Impossible to check? Setup a 1v1,2v2,3v3 @ 3000m starting  3km head on and so on in an online server, teams change aircraft. Review the recordings.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

I would love to lighten the 190 as much as I can every time - to make the best use of its engine power, good visibility and great high speed maneuverability. Sadly, all I ever got was a heavy aircraft with plenty of ammo and great dive/roll characteristics that didn`t matter much when you ended up in a 2v2 against Yaks @ 2000m.

 

Well we were talking about RL comparison.

 

Of course in BoS it's another story, and there's a reason at this: Fw 190A-3 underperforms, and Bf 109s are overperforming in some ways (check first page).

Impossible to check? Setup a 1v1,2v2,3v3 @ 3000m starting  3km head on and so on in an online server, teams change aircraft. Review the recordings.

 

Spoutpout is talking about RL.

[[GOAT]Spoutpout]

 

 

thats why i specifically mentioend dogfighting

 

A dogfight is an aerial combat, not a turnfight, geez !

 

 

 

a cw spit mb but otherwise 109 rolls quicker.

 

Like, seriously ? You're trolling me, right ?

 

 

 

XD lets meet in a duel server ill show u what im talking bout

 

I dunno, with the current state of FMs in BoS, it might not be a good idea.

 

 

 

Nope, not true.

 

Well, okay, I guess  

 

 

 

from sea level to ceiling pretty much, for the reasons mentioned: better, turn, climb, acc, e retention.

 

Believe in what you want. You're only making me sad, now.

 

 

 

Removing extra guns to get more performance was commong amongst pilots in ww2. Id take manoeuvrability over a couple of extra guns any day.

 

Yep, and between a Fw-190A with 2 cannons and a Bf-109G with 1 cannon, the choice is fairly easy since one of them is better in many situations even with an extra cannon.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

It begs a question - is the fw190 doomed to stay inferior to the 109 in sim gaming? It is undeniable that in the online play we have now, the scenarios tend to favor the 109 good sides and ignore 190 good sides. So while the 190 might have been better IRL here where we join a server and fly from our chairs, it is pretty much inferior in every way?

No, it's definitely not. I am participating in SeoW, in case you don't know, it's a dynamic online campaign for 1946, and it comes closest to the real warfare back then as it can be.Right now the Italy campaign 1943. My squad is participating there with approximately around 10 aircraft per sortie. Most of the time we have the privilege to choose our fighters first..different versions of 109 (G2, G6, G6AS) and 190 (A4, A5).Apart from a wing of 109s for high CAP (anytime the question is raised who's gonna do it, our squad leader pretty much has to force it, cause no one wants to fly the 109s), we are going for the 190s every single time - when you apply proper tactics, the 190 (when modeled correctly) is just such a superior plane. Due to the superb dive speed and roll rate, you always get away, when you are attacked, just waiting for a buddy to clear your six.Drag and bag tactics are also more promising. And our squad has by far the best K/D ratio in the current campaign, so we definitely know what we are doing. 

But in BoS it's just modeled wrong. Above 2500m, the plane behaves much worse then it should.

Edited December 29, 2015 by II./JG77_Manu*

[LukeFF]

 

 

Devs are so stubborn they dig their own grave. This game is doomed to fail miserably. IMHO all german simpilots should just dump the game and leave them red dreamplanepilots fly against themselves.

 

So, why are you still here?  

 

 

if just everyone on blues side

 

You do realize "red" and "blue" don't mean the same thing they do in IL21946, right?  

[Bearcat]

OK enough of this nonsense. Look if you don't like the FMs then you have two choices ... fly it or don't. If you chose to fly it and you have data to back your clains submit it. If the devs think it is accurate they will address it. If they do not then they won't but until then as with ANY flight sim the FMs are what they are. You can either accept that or not but stop with this nonsense right now.