AI Issues in PWCG

[PatrickAWlson]

A place to discuss wonky AI in PWCG missions.

[Bando]

Enemy AI:

AI seems to be target fixated.

AI does not go to their home base when (in case they do, in PWCG I've seen it, but it's rare) they flee, instead they go to my home base (me being their enemy)

 

Friendly AI:

Sometimes it misses the second WP and keeps circling the take off WP. Remedied by restarting the mission.

If the leader is hit, the whole sortie needs to go home (the next WP is homebase)

Friendlies not belonging to your flight do not interfere with your desperate 2-V-umpteen struggle. I hate them for this.

 

General:

I seem to be able to have comms with the airfield when I come in for landing on the vanilla campaign, never on PWCG. Is this something for later, or does it contain to much work in relation to the game immersion?

 

All the above is observed and reported because it differs from vanilla. There is probably a lot more, but if PWCG cannot do something about it because it is a dev thing, it's no use to ask PWCG to change it.

[PatrickAWlson]

"Sometimes it misses the second WP and keeps circling the take off WP. Remedied by restarting the mission."

 

I have a very tight window on the initial takeoff WP.  They might be circling and never get close enough.  i can loosen the specs.

 

Airfield comms - not sure how to do them but I can ask.  Remember that PWCG is a WWI port where airfield comms consisted of waving .

 

Flights going home when the leader is hit should not happen anymore.  Temporary solution will be to disable fleeing by default with an option to turn it on.  This way people can test without the "run away" options embedded in the mission.

 

Friendlies not engaging - only thing that I can think of is that this is a side effect of "run away" options.  

 

Thanks for the feedback.  i am going to handle my AI experimentation as options to allow users to switch back and forth.  Eventually we will hit on the right set.

 

[LLv24_Zami]

On this intercept mission I saw circling enemy bombers near my home base. Tried the mission twice and on both times the leader in the flight of 6 Heinkels separate from formation and apparently starts heading towards next WP alone. 5 wingmen are left circling around for ever and waiting to get shot down. They don`t bomb either. Leader opened the bomb doors but I think it was spawned out of the mission before dropping any ordnance.

There are also flights of La-5`s and LaGG-3`s circling nearby and not engaging.

Pilots are also missing on this one. Here`s the mission file if it`s needed:Missions.zip

 

About the fighter AI circling and not engaging, could the skill level of the flight leader have something to do with it?

And does it mean anything that most of those AI flights are not showing any markings for the leading aircraft when icons are on. I mean the double << on top of the name. Or is it just a visual thing?

Edited December 11, 2015 by Zami

[Bando]

I have a question. Somewhere in the text files is an option to set the percentage of flights that are escorted when you're flying attack planes or bombers.

It's probably a leftover from ROF, but I'm not sure.

I have set it to 100% in the hopes to get some escorts, but in my 10th flight as a Il2 pilot I have been jumped on for the tenth time by 4 109's and 4 190's (all 10 times) and we were ranging from 2 - 6.

We are being shot down each and every time, we have no escorts and we never even reach enemy lines as the slaughter always takes place on friendly territory.

 

I know there are escort missions when flying a fighter. Are there any AI escorts when I'm flying an attacker/bomber?

Or did I just have bad luck (this is the main reason I tried 10 sorties - trying to rule out luck -)?

 

I am not flying attackers anymore, just fighters. Pity really.

I hope you can let you wizardry make some escorts for us poor attackers  

[PatrickAWlson]

Player should always have an escort.  I'll look at it.

[LLv24_Zami]

To add to this circling issue, it seems that in many cases the flight leader continues his mission but the wingmen won`t follow. They remain circling at the spawning point. At least bombers do this.

 

For example in my recent Bf-109 mission flight of Stukas did this. Flight leader is on front flying away to the next WP and rest of the flight is background circling.

[PatrickAWlson]

 

To add to this circling issue, it seems that in many cases the flight leader continues his mission but the wingmen won`t follow. They remain circling at the spawning point. At least bombers do this.

 

For example in my recent Bf-109 mission flight of Stukas did this. Flight leader is on front flying away to the next WP and rest of the flight is background circling.

2015_12_16__17_25_7.jpg

 

 

That is helpful.  Sounds like the associations are not triggering

[LLv24_Zami]

I think this goes to AI category. There seems to be more fuel than 1 on many planes in PWCG missions. Some are in 1.5 or 1.6. Don`t know if it means anything though.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Zami

[Hartigan]

When flying 126 IAD P-40 missions, AI will blow up their engines when trying to reach high altitude. Ordinary patrol mission in 4200 meters. Even flight leader broke his engine and i was the only one left after that :] I tested it also with escort mission with autopilot on and checked what my plane will do. AI overdrive engine limits continuously. AI seems to have problems trying to reach such altitude with p-40.

[LLv24_Zami]

When flying 126 IAD P-40 missions, AI will blow up their engines when trying to reach high altitude. Ordinary patrol mission in 4200 meters. Even flight leader broke his engine and i was the only one left after that :] I tested it also with escort mission with autopilot on and checked what my plane will do. AI overdrive engine limits continuously. AI seems to have problems trying to reach such altitude with p-40.

Try to lower the patrol altitude for a few hundred meters and see how it works out. Could be an issue with AI engine management and not much we can do about it.

 

AircraftInfo file in input folder contains cruise speeds for all planes. You could try to change that if it has any effect.

Also there seems to be a new value in that file, ClimbOutRate. Wonder what that does?

[PatrickAWlson]

ClimbOutRate is the rate of altitude gain per minute that the aircraft can manage.  I use it to determine the altitude differential of the climb way points that allow planes to get to mission altitude before starting on their way.

 

One thing that I may have noticed about P40s ... when plane speed and altitude is posted do they use imperial rather than metric values?  i.e. am I telling a P40 to travel at 450 MPH at 4000 feet rather than 450 KPH at 4000 meters?  I do sincerely hope that the mission file does not have to be converted into imperial measurements on a plane by plane basis.  

[Hartigan]

Try to lower the patrol altitude for a few hundred meters and see how it works out. Could be an issue with AI engine management and not much we can do about it.

 

AircraftInfo file in input folder contains cruise speeds for all planes. You could try to change that if it has any effect.

Also there seems to be a new value in that file, ClimbOutRate. Wonder what that does?

OK, will try to lower alt, but do you mean the values showing at campaign screen? That screen where you scrup or accept mission? Or is there some other options in advanced menu? 

 

and i check that aircraftInfo when home. 

 

Thanks for answers and thank you PAT, this is wonderful mission generator!! 

[PatrickAWlson]

If anything it would be cruise speed that would burn up the engine.  If the P40 is using MPH and not KPH then I am asking it to go faster than it possibly can.

[Bando]

@ Hartigan; The altitudes can be changed in the screen where you normally accept the missions.

The data for the aircraft is found here: D:\IL-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad\BoSCampaign\Data\Input\  in the AircraftInfo.BoSCampaign file.

You can open it with any word processor.

 

@ Patrick:

I changed the P40 values to this:

 Plane

    {

        Desc = "P-40E-1";

        BoSType = "p40e1";

        Nation = 101;

        Purpose = 1;

Flyable = 1;

Role = "Fighter";

Role = "Attack";

Introduction = 01/01/1941;

Withdrawal = 01/06/1945;

Endurance = 2.5;

Goodness = 28;

Cruise = 212;

ClimbOutRate = 1800;

 

212 for mph, 1800 for feet

 

Will start testing it shortly.

[Bando]

Update:

With the above settings, I find the P40 does not blow its engine to pieces.

Took several patrol missions today and some were done quite well (in that we did get to do the mission and land on the homeplate).

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

Want to try out PWCG, start 110 Campaign first the Mission Brief says fly patrol to encounter enemy Planes, but all planes starting with bomb load.

There is no ground attack point indicated in the Mission Briefing.

Next the AI is heading direct in the big cloud cover as the Player I can not follow there, because I see nothing. Can I Fix this I anyway?

 

Greetings Mad

[Bando]

In PWCG the AI sees through the clouds.

I've been shot down and followed by AI in the clouds.

The standard armament of the 110 seems to be with bombs in PWCG. You cannot change their loadout, only your own.

Whenever they do need to dogfight they drop their bombs, so it's not that bad.

[PatrickAWlson]

110 with bombs for fighter missions is acknowledged.  I'll fix that.

 

AI seeing through clouds only in PWCG?  I don't think that I can do that.  PWCG is only a mission generator and cannot do anything more than what is done in the ME.  Maybe I hit upon a weather pattern that the AI does not acknowledge, but if I did I am only using the weather options available in the ME.

[Bando]

I hope I did not offend you Patrick.

I just wrote down what I found.

In the vanilla campaign, when in clouds I was not followed or shot down by AI. In PWCG I am.

Just an observation.

 

Thanks for the 110, as it's my favourite plane in game.

[PatrickAWlson]

My apologies if I came off as offended - was just trying to give a quick answer before work, so sorry if it came off shorter than intended.

 

I was just trying to figure out how that could happen.  Some sort of odd interplay in the weather options is the only thing that I can think of.  Might be right or wrong.  If you see it again can you post the mission file?  I'll look at weather options to try to see what might be happening.  For example, can the AI not see through designated cloud layers but maybe it can see through overcast?  Again - guessing.

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

This with AI in the Clouds is also problem with normal missions , come from the game mechanics. 

Think Pat give me all right the answer have to change the Weather options.

[Elem]

Is it possible to change the AI experience level?

[LLv24_Zami]

Is it possible to change the AI experience level?

Advanced config/mission AI.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Is it possible to change the AI experience level?

 

Yes, you can change the modifier in the advanced settings or open your campaign file and reconfigure the skill levels of the pilots in your squad.

 

I always reconfigure my campaign file to reassemble the team, rankwise, victorywise, missionwise and skillwise, to make my squadron a little more "historical."

[Elem]

Advanced config/mission AI.

Thanks Zami/Space Ghost.

[Elem]

The AI never release their ordinance on ground attack missions?

[PatrickAWlson]

Do some release?  I know that the AI will release some of their ordinance some of the time, so I'm pretty sure that it is not a generic issue.  It is always possible that in some cases I have the wrong approach profile for a particular load, and that will cause the AI to retain their ordinance.  If you still have the mission please zip it up and post it.

[Elem]

Hi Pat,

 

It has been every ground attack mission in every campaign I have created. Not once has any of my flight actually attacked the target. They fly home without having fired a shot or dropped anything leaving me to do all the work (and get shot down!).

[Willy__]

 

 

It has been every ground attack mission in every campaign I have created. Not once has any of my flight actually attacked the target. They fly home without having fired a shot or dropped anything leaving me to do all the work (and get shot down!).

 

Strange... here the AI does attack the ground targets, sometimes I have an issue where the AI and me destroy all ground targets while they still have some bombs left and they dont eject it on the way home. One thing that I noticed is that the AI goes right past the target, fly for some time, turn around and then attack, and they will only attack if the leader gives the order "patrol for ground targets".

 

Another issue that I have is AI not landing, no matter what I do, they just keep circling the airfield.

[Bando]

 

 

Another issue that I have is AI not landing, no matter what I do, they just keep circling the airfield.

 

I believe this is on purpose. Patrick did this because AI does a bad job in landing. So for survival purposes, it's better for AI to let you land and quit the mission.

[Willy__]

 

 

I believe this is on purpose. Patrick did this because AI does a bad job in landing. So for survival purposes, it's better for AI to let you land and quit the mission.

 

Oh that explains why then. I just reported that because on the first versions of PWCG the AI would land normally, maybe I was just lucky they didnt get blow up while landing.   Thx for the heads up anyways 

 

Another issue I'm having is when a friendly pilot/wingman gets shotdown and bail behind enemy lines, it appears on the report after the sortie and on the journal that he got captured, yet the pilot remains on the roster and can fly other missions like nothing happened

[Napping-Man]

Maybe he escaped!  

 

Also, I HAVE seen my flight lead land.  He made a perfect 3-point landing...about 100 meters away from the runway.  

[LukeFF]

Pat, I am noticing that, when flying the Bf 109 E-7 on ground attack missions, both the player's flight and the escort will break off to engage any nearby bombers or ground attack planes. In the attached mission, my escort of Bf 110s and the flight of E-7s I was a part of broke away from our flight path to engage a flight of Pe-2s. We eventually formed back up to continue our flight to the target (a train), but of course by then our bombs and most of our cannon ammo were gone. 

 

I can possibly see having the escorts to break off to attack a flight of bombers that close (they practically intersected our flight path), but the ground attack planes should continue on to the target, especially when the target is so close (we were no more than 5 minutes away from the target when the Pe-2s were engaged).

Missions.zip

[LLv24_Zami]

Pat, I am noticing that, when flying the Bf 109 E-7 on ground attack missions, both the player's flight and the escort will break off to engage any nearby bombers or ground attack planes. In the attached mission, my escort of Bf 110s and the flight of E-7s I was a part of broke away from our flight path to engage a flight of Pe-2s. We eventually formed back up to continue our flight to the target (a train), but of course by then our bombs and most of our cannon ammo were gone. 

 

I can possibly see having the escorts to break off to attack a flight of bombers that close (they practically intersected our flight path), but the ground attack planes should continue on to the target, especially when the target is so close (we were no more than 5 minutes away from the target when the Pe-2s were engaged).

This is quite problematic sometimes. As a flight leader the situation can be saved most times by ordering wingmen to follow my actions. But as a wingman there is nothing you can do. 

 

There are only 3 waypoint priority settings. Low means attack anything, medium is follow WP but defend yourself and on high setting they follow WP but ignore even direct attack. If I have undestood correctly. Maybe it would be worth a shot to try set the jabo flights on high WP priority until reaching the target area. 

 

Edit: Tried it by editing your mission. Works fine but the problem is when the Yaks attack near target area. Escorts engaged Pe-2s and Sturmoviks earlier and were not around anymore.

I think this is an issue what only devs can resolve properly by modifying AI and making more WP priorities.

 

BTW, there was a circling Bf-109f4 flight near Kalach. 

Edited February 26, 2016 by Zami

[Yogiflight]

This problem should have been solved in one of the last updates. I had asked this to Han, because I had this problem several times in the BOS campaign.

Since this update, I think it was 1.106, this doesn`t appear in the BOS campaign anymore, so I don`t understand, why this happens in PWCG.

[PatrickAWlson]

I might have a solution.  The WP priority is 2 but so too is the attack MCU.  That amounts to conflicting orders.  I will look into eliminating the attack MCU for ground attack flights.

[LukeFF]

Pe-2s, when under attack, scramble in all directions and try to fight like fighters, instead of holding formation. Is that a waypoint priority issue?

[PatrickAWlson]

Pe-2s, when under attack, scramble in all directions and try to fight like fighters, instead of holding formation. Is that a waypoint priority issue?

 

Shouldn't be since there is no WP specific logic by plane type.  An attack or bombing WP as well as the attack MCU is always medium priority, regardless of whether it's a Pe2, He111, or even an FW190.  

[LukeFF]

Shouldn't be since there is no WP specific logic by plane type.  An attack or bombing WP as well as the attack MCU is always medium priority, regardless of whether it's a Pe2, He111, or even an FW190.  

 

Strange. In my last mission (intercept, MC.202), the Pe-2s scattered all over the place and went into fighter mode once we made contact with them. It's in the same mission I attached here.

Edited March 2, 2016 by LukeFF