Did tank busting change to real hard since patch?

[Remontti]

I tried to knock out 2 pzIVs on WoL server with IL-2 and Pe-2. They were hiding in Stalingrad ruins and I couldn't get them with guns or bombs. I thought I need little practise and set up a quick mission for IL-2. I used 23mm and 37mm cannons but couldn't destroy Stugs from behind. Before the latest patch blowing up tanks with 23mm was really easy, maybe too easy.

 

Anyone else notice the difference?

[216th_Jordan]

they angle damage interpolation has been improved so your hits need to be a lot more close to vertical to get the same effect.

 

Also have a hard time now too..

Edited December 9, 2015 by Jordan

[216th_Peterla]

Yeap, I commented the same thing with some fellas. Right now is really hard to knock out a panzer with the 23mm of the IL2. You need to be very very close to get the maximum efficiency(bullet speed) of the AP ammo and look for the right angles on the vehicles.

It's highly possible that knocking out armour was too easy before.

Regards,

[Brano]

Since new update I have been only on receiving side - in the tank   But VYa is really not a tankbusting weapon.And there has been allready discussion about tankbusting and effectivity of different weapons (specially IL2 myth).Use search button.

What I find more "frustrating" are new bomb fuse settings for soviets.It is much difficult to drop FAB-100 (only usefull AT weapon) from low altitude and make it explode.Before this change I was able to train myself to place bombs on panzers with great accuracy.

[BraveSirRobin]

Yes, tank busting with cannon in the IL2 is a lot more difficult now.  I'm pretty sure it was too easy prior to the last update.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

BK37 also suffered from the update from my experience. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'm having excellent success on Jabo runs with my Fw and the SC 500. Needs to be placed within 10m or so for full effect. Good tankies see me coming and divert/stop/accelerate right around my release point otherwise it's a done deal. Static or targets moving in a linear fashion are destroyed nearly 100% of the time. Will try the SC 250 soon to up the difficulty level.

[StG77_Kondor]

BK37 also suffered from the update from my experience. 

 

Sure feels like it. Before I could smoke/kill several tanks in one go, hitting from above and 6 of T34's. I've done some testing and am having slightly less success - but not that bad, coming in dangerously low, and level with the tanks from either 9 or 3 of tank. Aiming for forward 1/3 and right above tracks. 

 

With 12 shots I average about 3 disabled/killed. Definitely not as good as before, but not horrible. 

[=CFC=Conky]

Sure feels like it. Before I could smoke/kill several tanks in one go, hitting from above and 6 of T34's. I've done some testing and am having slightly less success - but not that bad, coming in dangerously low, and level with the tanks from either 9 or 3 of tank. Aiming for forward 1/3 and right above tracks. 

 

With 12 shots I average about 3 disabled/killed. Definitely not as good as before, but not horrible. 

 

IRL that would have been a good score.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Since new update I have been only on receiving side - in the tank   But VYa is really not a tankbusting weapon.And there has been allready discussion about tankbusting and effectivity of different weapons (specially IL2 myth).Use search button.

What I find more "frustrating" are new bomb fuse settings for soviets.It is much difficult to drop FAB-100 (only usefull AT weapon) from low altitude and make it explode.Before this change I was able to train myself to place bombs on panzers with great accuracy.

 

 

I had a lot of trouble with this.  Suddenly, I couldn't get my Sovjet bombs to detonate unless dropped from silly heights that make vehicle destruction impossible.  I posted about it on here, and a very, very helpful person told me that in order to set your bombs to detonate from any altitude(low altitude) you must set 5 second fuse.  I've found this to be true 100% of the time, it works.  The delay is too long for moving targets, but that's the only solution I've found.

[StG77_Kondor]

IRL that would have been a good score.

 

Agreed. Not disputing historical vs non-historical. In a game we get wrapped up in getting fully credited for blowing up tank and kills, etc. When in reality just busting the tracks/engine and disabling the tank was good enough IRL. Something I think the game engine does reasonably well, tanks brewing and exploding after several minutes, sometimes not, etc. Room for improvement, sure, but well executed at the moment. 

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Sure feels like it. Before I could smoke/kill several tanks in one go, hitting from above and 6 of T34's. I've done some testing and am having slightly less success - but not that bad, coming in dangerously low, and level with the tanks from either 9 or 3 of tank. Aiming for forward 1/3 and right above tracks. 

 

With 12 shots I average about 3 disabled/killed. Definitely not as good as before, but not horrible. 

 

I have similar results, attacking from the rear or side, with a +-30° dive angle, I usually count 4-6 shell hits (2-3 well aimed trigger pulls) to blow off a T34. BT7 seems weaker and T70 are just deathtrap for their crews. I didn't encountered any KV1 yet.

 

I agree that I'm happy with how it works now. Before the update, the 37mm felt more like a 75mm

 

 

Oh but wait : 37+37 = 74mm am I right ? 

[Gunsmith86]

I had a lot of trouble with this.  Suddenly, I couldn't get my Sovjet bombs to detonate unless dropped from silly heights that make vehicle destruction impossible.  I posted about it on here, and a very, very helpful person told me that in order to set your bombs to detonate from any altitude(low altitude) you must set 5 second fuse.  I've found this to be true 100% of the time, it works.  The delay is too long for moving targets, but that's the only solution I've found.

 

The reason for the delay is to save pilots from geting killed by their owne bombs. Whit the delay your plane is always far enought form the point of the explosion so it doesn´t get deamaged.

( of course if you hit a ammunition train you maybe finished    )

 

For german bombs the minimum safety distance was:

 

SC 10 and SC 50 = 200m

SD 50, SD 70 and SC 250 = 400m

SD 250 and SC 500 = 500m

SD 500 = 700m

SC 1000 and bigger = 700m and more

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bombs against tanks:

 

German tests at Kummersdorf done before the war with a tank mark I showed that even this weak tank could survive explosions from SC 10 if not closer than 5m and SC 50 if not closer than 10m. They came to the conclusion that bombs are inadequate against tanks and that they would need more effectiv weapons if actions in larger nummbers against tanks would be undertaken.

 

Later in the war (1942)  they tryed larger bombs against 10x T34 , one Sherman, 4x Mk IV Churchill. The Churchill was the worst tank in the test a SC 250 that exploded 5m from the tank riped open the tank. T 34 and M4 Sherman repelled such test even from 3m distance. But the animals in the tank were death because of the high air pressure during the explosion and some T34 burned out because of brocken fuel pipes which ignited because of the runing engines.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Gunsmith86

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I'm familiar with the rationale behind fuse delays in munitions.  I've always been taught that the standard practice for dropping bombs on tanks from a non-Axis attack aircraft like the IL-2 was to come in at a shallow angle, at extremely low altitude(100-200m) and throw the (quite small) bomb directly onto the tank if possible.  A five second fuse makes this absolutely impossible with a moving target(at least with my abilities) .

 

If that's what the low-altitude fuses were set for in the Sovjet(not Axis) air forces at the time, then so be it.  If so, then the tank-killer myth of the IL-2(as Brano mentioned) with the exception of PTABS seems to be very exaggerated indeed.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Silas

[Gunsmith86]

I'm familiar with the rationale behind fuse delays in munitions.  I've always been taught that the standard practice for dropping bombs on tanks from a non-Axis attack aircraft like the IL-2 was to come in at a shallow angle, at extremely low altitude(100-200m) and throw the (quite small) bomb directly onto the tank if possible.  A five second fuse makes this absolutely impossible with a moving target(at least with my abilities) .

 

If that's what the low-altitude fuses were set for in the Sovjet(not Axis) air forces at the time, then so be it.  If so, then the tank-killer myth of the IL-2(as Brano mentioned) with the exception of PTABS seems to be very exaggerated indeed.

 

 

Effectiveness as attack aircraft

 

Kursk

 

The true capabilities of the Il-2 are difficult to determine from existing documentary evidence. W. Liss in Aircraft profile 88: Ilyushin Il-2 mentions an engagement during the Battle of Kursk on 7 July 1943, in which 70 tanks from the German 9th Panzer Division were claimed to be destroyed by Ilyushin Il-2s in just 20 minutes. In another report of the action on the same day, a Soviet staff publication states that:

 

Ground forces highly valued the work of aviation on the battlefield. In a number of instances enemy attacks were thwarted thanks to our air operations. Thus on 7 July enemy tank attacks were disrupted in the Kashara region (13th Army). Here our assault aircraft delivered three powerful attacks in groups of 20-30, which resulted in the destruction and disabling of 34 tanks. The enemy was forced to halt further attacks and to withdraw the remnants of his force north of Kashara.

— Glantz and Orenstein 1999, p. 260.

 

In the Battle of Kursk, General V. Ryazanov became a master in the use of attack aircraft en masse, developing and improving the tactics of Il-2 operations in co-ordination with infantry, artillery and armoured troops. Ryazanov was later awarded the Gold Star of Hero of Soviet Union twice, and the 1st Attack Aircraft Corps under his command became the first unit to be awarded the honorific title of Guards. In 1943, one loss corresponded to 26 Sturmovik sorties. About half of those lost were shot down by fighters, the rest falling to anti-aircraft fire.

However more realistic studies of Battle of Kursk are suggesting that very few of German armour losses were caused by IL-2 or any other Soviet aircraft. In fact total German tank losses in Operation Citadel amounted to 323 totally destroyed, the vast majority to Soviet AT guns and AFVs. In addition it is difficult to find any first hand accounts by German Panzer crews on the Eastern Front describing anything more than the occasional loss to direct air attack. The vast majority, around 95%-98%, of tank losses are due to enemy AT guns, tanks, mines, artillery, and infantry assault, or simply abandoned as operational losses like mostly happened during the last eleven months of the war.

During the battle of Kursk, the VVS IL-2s claimed the destruction of no less than 270 tanks (and 2 000 men) in a period of just two hours against the 3rd Panzer Division. On 1 July the 3rd Panzer Division’s 6th Panzer Regiment had only 90 tanks, 180 less than claimed as destroyed! On 11 July (well after the battle) the 3rd Panzer Division still had 41 operational tanks. 3rd Panzer Division continued fighting throughout July, mostly with 48th Panzer Corps. It did not record any extraordinary losses to air attack throughout this period. As with the other panzer divisions at Kursk, the large majority of 3rd Panzer Division’s tank losses were due to dug in Soviet AT guns and tanks.

Perhaps the most extraordinary claim by the VVS’s IL-2s, is that over a period of 4 hours they destroyed 240 tanks and in the process virtually wiped out the 17th Panzer Division. On 1 July the 17th Panzer Division had only one tank battalion (the II./Pz Rgt 39) with a grand total of only 67 tanks. This time only 173 less than claimed destroyed by the VVS! The 17th Panzer Division was not even in the main attack sector for the Kursk battle, but further south with 1st Panzer Army’s 24th Panzer Corps. The 17th Panzer did not register any abnormal losses due to aircraft in the summer of 1943, and retreated westwards with Army Group South later in the year still intact.

The main problem with the Il-2 was the inaccuracy of its attacks. Towards the end of war the Soviets were able to concentrate large numbers of Sturmoviks to support their main offensives. The effect, however, was often more psychological than actual physical destruction of targets, particularly against dug-in and armored targets. In the 9 June offensive in the Karelian Isthmus in Finland, the Finnish AA forces were far too few in numbers to counter the armadas of Pe-2 and Il-2, but they quickly found that the Il-2 attacks generally missed their marks widely, particularly with bombs. While some attacks against large unprotected targets such as horse and truck convoys and railyards had devastating results, attacks against dug-in point targets were usually ineffective.The frequent duels between dug-in 20 and 40 mm AA guns and Il-2 attackers never resulted in the complete destruction of the gun, while many Il-2s were brought down in these attacks.

The heavy armor of the Il-2 also meant that it would typically carry only comparatively light bomb-loads, which together with the poor accuracy of its attacks made it a far less deadly attack aircraft than the contemporary Allied fighter-bombers such as the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt and Hawker Typhoon. The rocket projectiles especially were not effective, even the larger RS-132 (of which four were carried) having a warhead with only 0.9 kg (2.0 lb) of explosives, which compared poorly with the P-47's typical load of ten 5 inch (13 cm) HVARs with each having a 21 kg (46 lb) warhead, or the 8 to 12 "60 lb" (27 kg) warheads of the Hawker Typhoon's RP-3 rockets.Likewise the Shturmovik's bombs were usually only 50 kg (rarely 100 kg), too small to compensate for the typically wide variation from target point.To compensate for the poor accuracy of the Il-2's bombsight, in 1943 the Soviet Command decided to use shaped-charge armor-piercing projectiles against enemy armored vehicles, and the PTAB-2.5-1.5 SCAP aircraft bomb was put into production. These small-calibre bombs were loaded directly into the bomb bays and were dropped onto enemy vehicles from altitudes up to 100 meters (328 ft). As each Il-2 could carry up to 192 bombs, a fire carpet 70 meters (229 ft.) long and 15 meters (49 ft) wide covered the enemy tanks, giving a high "kill" probability. Pilots of 291st ShAP were the first to use the PTAB-2.5-1.5 bombs. During one sortie on 5 June 1943, six attack aircraft led by Lt. Col. A. Vitrook destroyed 15 enemy tanks in one attack, and during five days of the enemy advance the 291st Division claimed to have destroyed or damaged 422 enemy tanks.

 

The German counterpart to the PTAB is the SD 4 HL Hollow Charge Anti-Personnel and Vehicle Bomb:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/sd4hl.htm

These small bombs are droped whitout delays.

[Y-29.Silky]

I remember being able to take a Lagg with AP 23mm and shooting the rear ends of tanks and destroying them, doesn't seem I can do that anymore.

Even with the Stuka's 37mm, there's been times I hit a tank with 4 rounds and it survives.

Also used to drop 100fab's right over the tanks with a 1 second fuse in the IL-2, of course that's gone too.

 

... So now I just use a 1000kg. A tank never survives that.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[F/JG300_Gruber]

A bit more BK37 feedback

 

I noticed that there is a gap between AI controled tanks and player controled tanks. Speaking for T34 only, AI controled needs 5-6 shell hits to blow up completely (shooting from the rear or the side), 4 are usually enough to disable the engine. For player controled, well, On two different tanks I scored 15 and 17 shell hits from rear and side, one got only the tracks damaged in the end and the second one got it's engine and tracks damaged, but I had to get back to base to load an SC250 to finish him off.

[Gunsmith86]

developer-diary 115:

 

HAN:

 

"There will be armor modeling improvements for the tanks, including more detailed suspension modeling making possible to hit the side armor of a tank directly, between its wheels. Pz III will benefit from additional protection granted by the spare track attached to the front hull."

[Lippisch]

Yes, at the moment I do not think it's accurate at all. Stukas had great success in destroying 10's of enemy tanks in dive-raids. Has anyone meddled with that since the last patch? I think I landed a 250kg right next to a KV-1 from a 109 and it had no effect. 

[F/JG300_Gruber]

I'm having good success with bombs so far(250kg and up) But you need to be precise. One of my squadmate managed with his Bf110 to take out 3 T34 with SC50 only...

 

BK37 are another story, and I found that crashing the stuka on the tank is a much more reliable way to destroy it (in case of player controled tanks).

Edited December 14, 2015 by F/JG300_Gruber

[SR-F_Winger]

I can confirm that from my experience.

Sometimes i fly JU87 with 37mm AP ammo to knock out player tanks on DED expert and its REALLY hard to kill them.

It seems that almost vertical attacks from above have to biggest chance of success.

[Gunsmith86]

Yes, at the moment I do not think it's accurate at all. Stukas had great success in destroying 10's of enemy tanks in dive-raids. Has anyone meddled with that since the last patch? I think I landed a 250kg right next to a KV-1 from a 109 and it had no effect. 

 

Only against not moveing targets and if they hit closer than 7m with SC 250 which took a lot of training to learn.

 

For the Bk 3,7cm they will get more usefull when we get the improvements in the armor modeling of the tanks with next patch.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

For AI tanks, I follow the Rudel method : start your run at 700-800m height, and dive at a 30° angle (the tank should be hidden somewhere in the middle of your instrument panel before diving) either from their 6 o'clock or 3-9 o'clock. I aim (try to at least)for the junction between the turret and the body. So far it's the most reliable way I found to disable them. I confirm that 4 solid shell hits are enough in quick mission.

In the end of the dive run, airspeed is usually around 500km/h, compared to a low flying stuka circling at 250km/h, you add a further 250fps to your ammo. Not sure how it's implemented in the sim but on the principle it should help. And the 30° dive angle helps a lot to deal with sloped armor (40° and 30° on a T34 for side body and side turret respectively)



I still need to try this out on a larger extent onto player controled tanks, but they are usually not very cooperative. 

[Lippisch]

Only against not moveing targets and if they hit closer than 7m with SC 250 which took a lot of training to learn.

 

For the Bk 3,7cm they will get more usefull when we get the improvements in the armor modeling of the tanks with next patch.

 

The target was stationary and it was by coincidence that it landed directly next to the track. I am under the impression that the 'improved' armour modelling is already in the game - with the same patch that the tanks were introduced in, hence the problem. 

[F/JG300_Gruber]

 I am under the impression that the 'improved' armour modelling is already in the game - with the same patch that the tanks were introduced in, hence the problem. 

 

Quoting Han in DD 115 (After the tanks were released)

 

"There will be armor modeling improvements for the tanks, including more detailed suspension modeling making possible to hit the side armor of a tank directly, between its wheels. Pz III will benefit from additional protection granted by the spare track attached to the front hull."

 

 

So lets wait until the next update, and hopefully things will get better.

[Lippisch]

Quoting Han in DD 115 (After the tanks were released)

 

"There will be armor modeling improvements for the tanks, including more detailed suspension modeling making possible to hit the side armor of a tank directly, between its wheels. Pz III will benefit from additional protection granted by the spare track attached to the front hull."

 

 

So lets wait until the next update, and hopefully things will get better.

 

Wasn't he also talking about armour modelling interpolation before that, too? I'm not sure if that made it into the patch or if that's is what he refers to in your quote as well.

[LukeFF]

Further armor changes are coming.

[fjacobsen]

It has really become hard, but not impossible.

 

I have killed a few Tanks with both the Stuka (37mm) and the Il-2 (23mm).

 

But dropping a 1800kg bomb amidst them in QMB doesn´t seem to affect them the slightest, though I would assume the blast to kill the people inside.

 

I have been able to kill them with direct hits of 500kg bombs.

[Sokol1]

... So now I just use a 1000kg. A tank never survives that.

 

Urban legend. 

 

 

Is need direct hit, but a direct hit of 250KG blow the T-34 - and dont blow the Stuka.