AI Aggressiveness

[SharpeXB]

Is there a setting that controls the level of aggressiveness in the AI?

It's like World War Z against berserk zombies. Most of my missions I'm being chased all the way back to base by what must be every enemy fighter in the sky. Literally. Like maybe 8-10 of them. Every encounter immediately explodes into a super furball of action. The AI seem to spawn out of nowhere. I'm so used to these games having to hunt and search for them but here suddenly bam there a whole pack surrounding me.

I'll also see things like a single plane drawing fire from the ground in a big Christmas tree cone of fire from like every gun on the ground.

 

In the official campaign there will be a lot of planes in the air, but they're all doing something other than going right at the player. There's a lot of action but it all seems more authentic.

In the RoF PWCG I tried a two-seater career and it was impossible because you'd be sacked by a whole enemy squadron the moment you cross nml. In this campaign it would be impossible to fly anything other than the best fastest fighter like the 109s, if you're in a Stuka or Sturmovik you'll just get slaughtered.

Is there a way to tame this down to something more believable?

[Bando]

I agree. Since V1(.0.1) the enemy aircraft are overwhelming our flight each and every time.

Even flying in a 109 does not make it better, although I can outclimb and outrun them, they are there just after landing, or when I taxi away.

They keep following.

I even went to do this:

Flying west until my fuel was nearly gone (in a 109 with less then 100 - hard to see - liters). Then I turned back east, sure enough, all 13 enemy aircraft were there.

It gets a bit frustrating.

 

I have set max friendly flights to 10, max enemy flights to 8 and odds to 1 now, will report back if this clears it a bit. (it was previously 10-12-3)

Edited December 9, 2015 by Bando

[3instein]

Strange, as on my last 2 patrols at over 150km long each I have failed to see a single enemy plane.

 

Mick.

[LLv24_Zami]

Try to set this setting to 0: - Max Opposing Flights: Controls the maximum number of flights which will intentional have flight routes that cross the player's flight's flight route. The number of aircraft in the flight is controlled on the second page, and the chance the flights used to be Opposing Flights exist is controlled by the Flight Opposition setting (See below). Setting this to the default of '2' is a good idea to keep things manageable.

 

It means that PWCG will generate all normal flights to the area but not intentionally to oppose your flight. Plenty of action still available. Might need other tweaks too but it could help.

[PatrickAWlson]

FYI there were only minor tweaks between from beta 3 to V1.0.1.  Nothing that affects aircraft density, pathing, etc.

 

In the next release I plan to model an exclusion zone around the player's airfield.  The exclusion zone will be modeled as a probability to prevent AI flights from being there thirty seconds after the player takes off.  That will not specifically address being overwhelmed by enemy planes but it will change the mission dynamics and will also at least keep you from being overwhelmed 100 meters over your own runway.  

 

I also noticed that friendly flights tend to be right over your runway.  Not a big deal in itself but what that means is that you are less likely to find a friendly flight where you actually want one (near the point of combat).

 

I always recommend reducing enemy flights when flying attack or bomber careers,  Also set max opposing flights to 0.  I didn't realize that it still defaulted to 1.  I will change it to zero as a default in the next release.  An "opposing flight" is something that PWCG puts in your path on purpose as opposed to naturally meeting an enemy flight.

 

Finally, you can reduce AirfieldInclusionRadius, InitialSquadronSearchRadius, and MaxSquadronSearchRadius .  This will cause fewer flights to be generated.

 

PWCG is highly configurable, but it can be hard to know what the right numbers are.  This is a new game and a new map so it will take some time to get things adjusted.

 

Aggressiveness of the AI is generally controlled by priority.  Bombers do their missions on medium priority, so they should not attack the player.  I have seen this myself (I really do not fly very much so you guys actually have far more experience than I do) where IL2s or PE2s would simply pass me by.  if you do get a mission where you are attacked by bombers please post it.

Edited December 9, 2015 by PatrickAWlson

[LLv24_Zami]

FYI there were only minor tweaks between from beta 3 to V1.0.1.  Nothing that affects aircraft density, pathing, etc.

 

In the next release I plan to model an exclusion zone around the player's airfield.  The exclusion zone will be modeled as a probability to prevent AI flights from being there thirty seconds after the player takes off.  That will not specifically address being overwhelmed by enemy planes but it will change the mission dynamics and will also at least keep you from being overwhelmed 100 meters over your own runway.  

 

I also noticed that friendly flights tend to be right over your runway.  Not a big deal in itself but what that means is that you are less likely to find a friendly flight where you actually want one (near the point of combat).

 

I always recommend reducing enemy flights when flying attack or bomber careers,  Also set max opposing flights to 0.  I didn't realize that it still defaulted to 1.  I will change it to zero as a default in the next release.  An "opposing flight" is something that PWCG puts in your path on purpose as opposed to naturally meeting an enemy flight.

 

Finally, you can reduce AirfieldInclusionRadius, InitialSquadronSearchRadius, and MaxSquadronSearchRadius .  This will cause fewer flights to be generated.

 

PWCG is highly configurable, but it can be hard to know what the right numbers are.  This is a new game and a new map so it will take some time to get things adjusted.

 

Aggressiveness of the AI is generally controlled by priority.  Bombers do their missions on medium priority, so they should not attack the player.  I have seen this myself (I really do not fly very much so you guys actually have far more experience than I do) where IL2s or PE2s would simply pass me by.  if you do get a mission where you are attacked by bombers please post it.

The exclusion zone sounds like a good idea. And those friendly flight positions could some tweaking. How about adding some AA guns to airfields? That could cover from chasing enemy fighters and would be realistic.

 

BoS and RoF are totally different animals, I`m sure we all understand that. So it takes time to get everything right but I think the progress has been very nice. Few months ago I didn`t think that we could be in this point in december, having a proper career for BoS.

[SharpeXB]

In the RoF 777 Career you can get persued too but not to the edge of the map or to your own field and not by an entire squadron. They will give up at some point. So you can do hit and run tactics with some degree of sucess. Or you might see another flight and decide it's not a good idea to engage them and they might not attack either.

[Bando]

Strange, as on my last 2 patrols at over 150km long each I have failed to see a single enemy plane.

 

Mick.

 

I know what you mean. I have flights where I do not meet an enemy as well, just as I hoped, for I want it to be uncertain.

But when I meet up with unfriendlies, they show up in numbers.

I already have max opposing flights set to 0.

 

Did not have the chance to fly today, but I hope the new setting for max enemy planes will do some good.

[PatrickAWlson]

There is nothing about PWCG mission generation that is all or nothing.  It is random.  But that gives me another idea.

 

Right now PWCG has references for max flights.  it will almost always keep that many flights (internally PWCG generates a lot of flights and then decides which ones to keep).  What I can do is use two parameters - max and min.  That will randomize the number of flights that actually make it into the mission and offer more variety in terms of contact.

 

I really do think that the exclusion zone will help with overwhelming odds.  My experience has been that you see friendly flights close to the base all the time.  That pretty much consumes the allotment of friendlies, leaving none available when you really need them.

[CIA_Yankee_]

That's a great idea, and I've certainly been running into the same issue as Bando. In most of my flights I end up getting overwhelmed.

 

Also, airstart has some issues, at least in my experience:

 

1- The Airstart altitude setting does not seem to work at all. Regardless what I do, my airstart altitude seems more determined by the mission type than anything else (500m for intercepts, for example). The end result is that with airstart activated my flight always meets the enemy at a massive altitude disadvantage, which is usually insurmountable by the AI (meaning the enemy AI is able to successfully use their higher E to decisively win the engagement... which is actually very cool to see, but not so cool to experience over and over *Grin*).

 

2- For intercept missions, it looks like doing an air start will result in encountering the enemy flights almost immediately. It's as if they spawn very close by and show up all at once. This is 100% reproducible, as it happened over a dozen different intercept missions in a row with airstart. I would pop in, and by the time I had regained formation with my flight we'd make contact already (at a massive altitute disadvantage, as intercepts airstart you at 500m). It was only when I did not do an airstart that my flight was able to actually fly to the intercept point in order to make contact.

 

The exclusion zone should resolve #2, but it's strange that it does not occur when doing ground start w/ climb WPs.

 

Also, the max enemy flight = 0 being recommended is good to know, and I agree that a min flights would be a great option, adding good randomization.

[CIA_Yankee_]

There is another issue that I think should be addressed, and is related to the aggressiveness of the AI:

 

When an AI plane decides to attack someone, it generally will NEVER relent no matter what until that target is dead. And they will do so in LARGE numbers at times.

 

For example:

 

- I've seen 4 AI planes go after my leader, chasing him relentlessly in a line until he drops. Then they'd latch on the next closest and repeat, and so on, and so on.

 

- Those AI planes are utterly fixated on their target, no matter what. In the previous example, I actually shot down 2 or 3 of them in a row as they fixated on my leader. And this goes beyond any simulation of target fixation, because I would be hitting them numerous time, and even when they were belching black smoke they'd STILL stay on target and gun down the object of their suicidal obsession.

 

It actually looks fairly artificial, quite frankly: you can quickly tell when the AI "fixates" on a target even as they begin the merge. Suddenly they'll clump up and fire at the leader (it's usually the leader, I guess because he's closest), who will have to dodge 3-4 streams of shells while the rest of us are free to go after the enemy.

 

Now I'm not sure if Pat can do anything about this, but I know that in BoBII this kind of problem was handled by having a "max AI attacker per target" setting. You could basically prevent the AI from ganging up unrealistically on a target that way: once x AI have locked on a target, the others would select different targets instead (without that setting you could end up with 12 spitfires lining up behind a single bomber, which was nuts).

 

Of course, the above would not resolve the AI self-preservation issues: they should at least have a % chance of going defensive once they notice tracers flying by (or start taking hits).

 

Thank you.

[74_jim_nihilist]

@Yankee_

I can confirm this. Have seen this several times. Maybe someone from the developers can look into it?

 

There is nothing about PWCG mission generation that is all or nothing.  It is random.  But that gives me another idea.

 

Right now PWCG has references for max flights.  it will almost always keep that many flights (internally PWCG generates a lot of flights and then decides which ones to keep).  What I can do is use two parameters - max and min.  That will randomize the number of flights that actually make it into the mission and offer more variety in terms of contact.

 

I really do think that the exclusion zone will help with overwhelming odds.  My experience has been that you see friendly flights close to the base all the time.  That pretty much consumes the allotment of friendlies, leaving none available when you really need them.

 

I do so, too. After several hours of test flights it was pretty much the best solution I came up with. See here at the bottom:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/18671-pwcg-bos-beta-3-available-testing/page-7?do=findComment&comment=302506

Edited December 10, 2015 by 74_jim_nihilist

[CIA_Yankee_]

@Yankee_

I can confirm this. Have seen this several times. Maybe someone from the developers can look into it?

 

 

Aye... though the thing is I don't remember seeing this in the normal campaign. AI seems less persistent then, which makes me think that Pat plays around with the AI settings as well (and to be fair, it works out awesomely otherwise. It can be a challenge and it's great to see AI do BnZ properly).

[PatrickAWlson]

Aye... though the thing is I don't remember seeing this in the normal campaign. AI seems less persistent then, which makes me think that Pat plays around with the AI settings as well (and to be fair, it works out awesomely otherwise. It can be a challenge and it's great to see AI do BnZ properly).

 

There really are no AI settings that I am aware of other than:

1. Waypoint priority

2. Attack MCU

 

My problem is that I have very limited insight into how these things interact in the AI logic.  It's pretty much trial and error, with you guys doing the trials.  

 

Some things to consider: eliminate the attack MCU and let the AI decide.  In RoF that led to passive AI.  Make WP priority high for bombers and attack planes.  In RoF that led to the AI not fighting back at all.  In my tests, once I eliminated the attack MCU for bombers, they stopped attacking fighters.  

 

So ... back to the beginning.  If you see unusual AI behavior please post the mission and eng files.

[CIA_Yankee_]

There really are no AI settings that I am aware of other than:

1. Waypoint priority

2. Attack MCU

 

My problem is that I have very limited insight into how these things interact in the AI logic.  It's pretty much trial and error, with you guys doing the trials.  

 

Some things to consider: eliminate the attack MCU and let the AI decide.  In RoF that led to passive AI.  Make WP priority high for bombers and attack planes.  In RoF that led to the AI not fighting back at all.  In my tests, once I eliminated the attack MCU for bombers, they stopped attacking fighters.  

 

So ... back to the beginning.  If you see unusual AI behavior please post the mission and eng files.

 

Where are these files? I'd be happy to contribute, but I'm new to PWCG (previously I just used Warhamm's career system, and career mode for RoF).

[PatrickAWlson]

The files will be in your mission folder.  .mission and .eng.  if I have the mission files I can have a go at recreating the issue reported.  

 

If the issue is AI related I may or may not be able to do anything about it.  When it comes to the AI I am trying to hit a moving target as BoS is still very much in development.  Not a complaint as it goes with the territory, but I do need all of the help that I can get (and so far I have really gotten great support from the community).

[CIA_Yankee_]

The files will be in your mission folder.  .mission and .eng.  if I have the mission files I can have a go at recreating the issue reported.  

 

If the issue is AI related I may or may not be able to do anything about it.  When it comes to the AI I am trying to hit a moving target as BoS is still very much in development.  Not a complaint as it goes with the territory, but I do need all of the help that I can get (and so far I have really gotten great support from the community).

 

Understood, I will try and supply the files as issues come up.

 

As for the AI, then only reason I think it's something you might be able to do something about is because I don't see that kind of single-minded behavior in the regular campaign. So there must be some sort of settting that could be tweaked. What that could be is beyond me.