Hopes for Improved Perception

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

This was originally a response to a Finkeren post but I didn't want it to get buried in the polls thread;

 

I'm hoping the PC gaming and flight sim magazines take note and give really stellar reviews to BOM while noting the exceptional progress BOS has made as well. I remember picking up JANES WWII Fighters just because (PC Gamer?) had a brilliant super-closeup of an Fw 190 on the cover. I had to have those graphics! BOM will have the graphics and the physics. SP is still lagging behind somewhat but improvements to the campaign and Pat's generator will get us pretty close on gameplay for that audience.

 

Positive press could go a long way to filling out the MP ranks 'round here. It's still gonna take a Western focused third or fourth installment to get everyone off the couch though.

 

We all know this game is pretty d@^^n good but I hope the release is clean and well received. Also hoping it drives the BOS EA naysayers and trolls back underground finally.

 

Good luck DEVS, I am wishing you well. Make sure to really work the western press hard!

Edited November 25, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Jason_Williams]

Sadly, the mainstream gaming press doesn't cover sims any more really. We've tried to get their attention and it doesn't work. They just ignore the genre and act like it doesn't exist and don't bother staffing someone who can write about it effectively. PC Pilot is the only printed mag that does and they do a really good job and have given us lots of press over the years.

 

It's really is up to community members and non-mainstream websites and groups to keep the genre alive and report good information about the products. We can only do so much. Markets change, technology changes, systems change and the community changes..the sim sub-genre survives, but it will be a while before a full blown renaissance happens. 

 

Jason

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

didnt u make an appearence on gamespot Jason - the lobby? Seems to me that "new media" such as webb reviews and social media are more important than magazines. i cannot recall the last time i even glanced at a cover of Any magazine..(a yes, i am no kid... 45+)

[Finkeren]

Hopefully the official release of BoM will enable you to make at least a blip on the mainstream radar.

[Y-29.Silky]

IL-2: Operation Overlord would probably get on their radar    

JANES WWII Fighters just because (PC Gamer?) had a brilliant

 
Janes also had brilliant flak mechanisms. I remember when you started taking flak, you'd fly higher until they readjusted their up up a little bit later then you had to move again, rather than the flak chase you 24/7.  
You could also hear the flak, as a 10 year old is was a little scary at times. 
They also had infantry you could strafe. 
What is absolutely brilliant and I can't say I've seen this since..
AI 109's flying in the wagon wheel, AI 190's boom and zoom from the sun (hun in the sun), P-51's weaving over their B-17s, B-24's would be lower altitude, pretty sure I learned all the WWII tactics from that game alone. 
Also those intense luftbery circles that lasted for what seemed a few minutes, trying to get on each others tail. I swear I was unknowingly making facial expressions that would simulate G forces. 

Ahhh Luftwaffe vs USAAF is too fun.

[Albino]

Given the improvements in the last year, we should expect BOM to get a much better recommended rating on Steam than BOS (which is at 'mixed - 69%'). If I'm on the fence about a product I look closely at the Steam rating and reviews. Perhaps a higher rating will get some of the fence sitters in? Also if a Steam owner did a review linking PWCG it might help.

 

Rock Paper Shotgun does have a weekly 'Flarepath' column that occasionally features IL2. I'm sure they will cover BOM when it is released.

 

Regards

Albino

[Jason_Williams]

Tim Stone and Andy Mahood are the two writers who were the only real sim-friendly voices in the mainstream gaming press over the past decade. They don't get enough work and are dinosaurs relatively speaking.

 

Yes Loft and I were on Gamespot or was it IGN? I forget, but we made a concerted effort at promoting BOS to the mainstream and it wasn't real successful. For sims it's best to stick to other methods. But it is sad it has become such a niche hobby.

 

Jason

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

We should start a letter (email) writing campaign. No 1C/777 involvement, so it doesn't get misconstrued like the Metacritic campaign, and push to get some reviews done. I'll start a thread in the next couple of days after I do a little research. List every sim and aviation publication you can think of here.

[Feathered_IV]

The Australian games writer Alex Walker, formerly with Games on Net and now with Kotaku Australia seems very sim friendly and appears to deliver all the stories of that type that the other console-centric writers don't touch.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I think you have to sleep with the journalists these days to get good press

 

Gamergate 

[steppenwolf]

All the old IL2 players didn't just die off, and their love for flying and history hasn't changed. Do you really think they don't play this game because they don't know about it? 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

These days the best marketing you can get in terms of media is on forums (or reddit for that matter), social media and other websites the audience goes to. That and to some extent in-person marketing, but that is in many ways expensive and not time-effective.

 

A couple of years ago way before they had the Hawk out I remember VEAO (DCS third-party developer, for the unaware) did a pretty good promotional effort by simply taking a computer, stick and monitor (or monitors, can't remember) to an airshow at Duxford - probably Flying Legends, but not sure. Anyhow, this got them some good press in forums and got people interested too. The effect is simple: the people who experience that first-hand, including people who would have had no exposure to the sim otherwise (from kids age 10 to adults age 60 who don't go online hunting for flight sims), were interested and had fun so they were left wanting more. The people who saw this through videos and pics online got to see not only the product but also the fact that people were having a good time flying it.

 

From what I've seen so far the biggest problem Il-2 has in terms of marketing now is nothing they are doing themselves but the wide bunch of self-entitled nutters who went out spreading junk about it back in the very first days of early access (again, much like it happened in the first years of Rise of Flight). People read some loud bad review and decide to back off because they don't want to put their money in something someone said was "unfinished", "buggy"  and all that mantra you've all heard 5000 times from the same bunch. That being said, just like with Rise of Flight eventually as the game matures the naysayers either get buried chronologically or convert after seeing the state of the simulator as it is now, and the people who are enjoying it will proceed spreading good words about it.

 

My belief is that a good majority of the Il-2 fans didn't quite pay much mind to it because of the EA reviews (it seems as if people didn't quite understand how the concept of "early access" implies that it is not finished, i.e. 'there is work to be done but anyway here is a teaser, have fun'). Since the release of the new maps and the constant influx of material and improvements it feels like there is much more buzz and excitement around it however, and I expect it will only progress from here on.

 

Sorry for the long reply, I work with digital marketing regularly so giving my opinion on stuff like this is a habit

[Trooper117]

When anyone visits my house they can't help see all my flight sim stuff because it's in the corner of my front room

 

They all ask about it and what it is all for, and I'll promote all my WWII, WWI flight sims and even modern games like DCS.

I'll ask them if they have any interest in aviation and that they can see a demo anytime... I never stop highlighting the genre to anyone and everyone I meet.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Yeah, 777 did that (Duxford Style demo) for their initial launch and partnered with Thrustmaster. I suggested they do it for the Chino airshow, Planes of Fame. It's all warbirds, with a big two day draw and right in their backyard. I still think it'd be a great idea. Eight computers, tent and a generator.

Edited November 26, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[AndyHill]

Well technically there still are print magazines that cover simulators, not necessarily in English, though. The trick is to utilize specialist freelancers or people who play simulators in addition to other games. There are so few simulator releases (even if you count beta modules for DCS) that writing about them is pretty much by necessity a hobby if you just focus on those. Also reviewing them is a lot of "work". The latest CoD (not referring to Cliffs of) is over in five+ hours, about the time it takes to get your setup sort of configured for a new sim. 

 

But anyway, there's still some gaming media out there interested in more niche and/or hardcore genres as well.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

All the old IL2 players didn't just die off, and their love for flying and history hasn't changed. Do you really think they don't play this game because they don't know about it?

The old Il2 players are gun shy kicked puppies. We need to entice them back out of the shadows with nice things and introduce this genre to a new generation as well. Show them both our shiny new toys!

Edited November 26, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[steppenwolf]

HerrMurf, I think what registers as 'new' to you and others just isn't as universal as you guys might think it is. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I'm confident they will come out of the woodwork as new stuff is released. Considering Il-2 right now brings the same premise of the old one - iconic Eastern Front battles - these people will be increasingly lured in once the improved dynamics + graphics of the new Il-2 pack enough content to offset the difference in terms of sheer number of aircraft, maps and etc., which is the biggest advantage the old Il-2 has (particularly the mod crew).

 

Once there is that foundation that made the old Il-2 so popular (early-mid Eastern Front with Soviet planes + mid-late EF with Soviet and land lease planes) people who spent so much time in those scenarios will feel tempted to revisit them over a decade later. From then on there will be more money coming in, a decent plane set will have been fleshed out already and the developers will have more cards at hand (i.e. resources) to offer more flexible packages or new theatres and whatever will be more sound to them - in relation to the company, the franchise, the brand and of course the finances behind it.

 

The future looks very exciting

 

EDIT: And of course, the same thing goes for the people who are playing War Thunder for the amount of aircraft and such but are increasingly leaning towards better simulation dynamics and such (both 'normal' and 'expert' settings people). Once you can pick from Soviet, German, Italian, American and other aircraft, spanning over different periods, this series gets much more attractive to everyone. The key here is to have patience and grow at a pace they can handle, and I'm sure everyone involved is aware and actively practicing this.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

HerrMurf, I think what registers as 'new' to you and others just isn't as universal as you guys might think it is. 

he said new generation, not new game.

[steppenwolf]

He said, 'shiny new toys'.

[SpaydCBR]

The problem is that this game really isn't as good as you long time fans think.

 

Now before you hate on me I just want to say that I LOVE this game, and it is my 5th most played game in my Steam library right now out of 56 games. However, as a member of the "mainstream" gamers, I can say that this game is a solid 7.

 

For $60 you really don't get much. Just 8 planes and a lackluster campaign, which alone would deter many people away. Personally I prefer having a few highly detailed models than a bunch of less detailed models, but I think most people wouldn't. I have a friend who is a massive sim fan and a huge WW2 geek (he's the one that got me into all of this) but refuses to get this game for it's lack of content and high price, compared to say War Thunder that gives you access to hundreds of air and ground vehicles with a decent enough FM and DM for FREE.

 

If I were to give it a 9 or so I'd need to see these changes:

 

1- A much more sophisticated campaign, similar to all the campaigns ideas that were being thrown around in these forums. Many people like myself just want to play offline and this game really doesn't offer much. I used this game as a platform for learning how to fly and once I did that I rarely touched it till tanks came out. (This alone would probably give it a 9)

 

Side note: Before tanks I only played 5 MP battles and got one kill, then never touched it again. Since tanks came out I've played 3 battles and got 5 air kills (no tank kills because of the hilariously overpowered Russian tanks). I enjoyed those mixed battles a lot and will probably play more, so in my opinion tanks is a good step towards bringing in more players, just needs to be done better.

 

2- Better performance. It doesn't run very well on most machines and it's much more noticeable in a tank. (It's runs alright for me)

3- Better graphics. The graphics look great when you're in a plane. No other game makes a plane feel like it's actually there and that you're flying it, and the lighting is great, but on the ground things look much worse. Sorry to say, but the map looks like it was made in 2001. They should at least fix the hilariously short grass draw distance. (This point alone would probably deter 70% of mainstream gamers, and an improvement, along with the campaign, would make me give it a nice 10

 

Well that's my opinion at least, and I'm pretty sure it's a common one. But I like this game and will probably get BoM soon to try out the new planes

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

All point well taken. This thread is for getting the word out and ideas for presenting it to mass media. Let's not stray too far from that. There are numerous threads for expectations, wishes and critiquing the sim on this side of the equation. They are better handled there.

[Finkeren]

I think your points are completely fair SpaydCBR, and to an extent I agree with most of it.

 

The thing is, that much of the public perception of BoS/BoM, among those who are even aware of its existence, is not even that of a "solid 7".

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Well, if we are going to remain off topic;

 

Point 1 - completely agree

Point 2 - less so. If your machine is up to only the minimum spec you will get minimum performance. Most simmers will have at least a decent gaming rig and those who are more serious will get a more serious rig. So your individual mileage may vary......considerably.

Point 3 -absolutely. Except - the graphics are optimized for aircraft so I don't see them changing it unless the game moves towards a combined arms focus. So far, that is not the aim. I doubt it is even reasonable until a DX, Win and engine upgrade are done. Frame rates and/or player slots would go in the dumper.

[Albino]

I have trouble understanding the argument that BOS is expensive. It goes on sale to half price about 4 times a year. Steam users at least know to watch for sales.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I dont think a mass media this days would be open for discussion about simulations, as Jason said its kinda niche this days and everyone in business wants squeeze max profits, so the go for a hot topics and popular segment of games.

Personally I put a lot of attention to giving a news to my friends and people on other forums I talk or just hang around, it receives some attention and I'm fairly sure that its a good way at promoting product we all like.

 

Ps. On this improved perception, I'd actually like to know if there is any way to track amount of game copies sold across the months of weeks if possible. The release of 110 and most importantly tanks, along with previous summer maps and so on has attracted a massive attention. Discount worked perfectly and many of the people I know who had some concerns went for the game now. 

All this talk I've heard, like "finally a reason to drop wt" or "a first tank simulation since a long time" made me wonder on actual impact on market. 

[[TWB]Outlaw-]

Looks like a good PR move here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TMUV-JQNkVY

[FuriousMeow]

I don't understand the only 8 planes and lackluster campaign for $60 as a reason it isn't worth it.

 

It was the same cost for Il-2 original version, maybe $10 cheaper. As far as comparing at least somewhat apples to apples (WarThunder is over there in vegetable land and doesn't compare - not to mention it has been in development for far longer and used the old Il-2 FM and DM to get started), BoS rates way higher than v1 of Il-2 - from plane quality, to campaign, to FM, to DM, and to multiplayer. Natural progression for FM, DM, graphics, and MP, sure but it's basically the same price for something way better when comparatively to anything else on the market that was available back then and extremely improved upon in ever facet - it wouldn't be almost the same price. It would be quadruple that based on the value of everything going up. For something far more complicated than the original Il-2 and being $10 more - it is such an amazing deal.

 

I don't buy anyone is a WW2 aviation geek/loves WW2 from the sky and won't buy BoS. I played WT, that I won't ever touch again. I pre-ordered what was supposed to be the best WWII sim ever from the UK and downloaded from there to find out it was a terrible lie and garbage. I downloaded it from the UK because it was released there earlier than the US. I should have listened to the warnings of the other early purchasers though. I've seen recent videos of it and still extremely unimpressed.

 

I'm a WW2 air combat/aviation geek, and it is as good as it is. If someone wants the gamey aspects, then that is not here completely. Apparently some of it is creeping in, unfortunately, to attract the "WW2 geeks that won't buy BoS because" and that is somewhat disappointing but at least it is still mostly not getting rid of the few actual WW2 aircombat/aviation geeks in lieu of attracting just the base WW2 geeks.

Edited November 27, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[Guest deleted@50488]

Above all, I am yet to find something that gives me a better overall feel of flight in the covered range of aircraft, than IL-2 BoS / BoM... There's another one that approaches it, but, IMHO, doesn't match it really...

 

So, IL-2 is definitely a MUST HAVE, even if, just like me, you're not a combat flight simmer ...

[Feathered_IV]

Gee whiz FM and DM's alone do not bring a sim widespread commercial success. That should be abundantly clear by now.

[WIS-Redcoat]

I personally don't play because not many of my friends play "real" flight sims, so my draw with deep games is a robust single player (or hybrid) campaign ala ROF etc. If I am going to play multiplayer its unfortunately War Thunder, not because it's better, but it's built for accessibility with the war gaming masses... And even then they won't fly "simulator mode"

 

I wish this had an RPG campaign.

[coconut]

I suspect the IL-2 brand might have hurt the game more than was expected (if it was expected at all). I bought this game coming from War Thunder because I saw videos of the game by Kraut on YouTube, not because it's a game in the IL-2 series. At least in my case the IL-2 brand was not a motivator for my purchase.

 

Then you have all the people who have fallen deeply in love with their modded version of IL-2 1946 and ClOD. When they saw that IL-2 BOS was a not a straight-up improvement (unlocks, not mod-able...) over their favorite version they started campaigning against it. Why they did so, I'm not sure, but I suppose it has to do with the low multiplayer population overall.

 

I wonder, would it be possible to grab some Battlefield players to the game? The kind that spends their time in the air, raking up kills? They might enjoy the challenge of a more complex flight-model. There are popular YouTubers out there playing FPS games, and at least two of these games have a flight component to them (I'm thinking of Battlefield and Arma). Maybe there are also potential player bases to tap into in the spacesim genre.

 

The problem with flight sim enthusiasts from the 20th century is that they might not even be playing games at all anymore. Most of my friends who are my age and who were playing PC video games during their youth are no longer playing.