Mouse Aim & Multiplayer

[N1SB.Jefu]

I'm thrilled that mouse aim has been added. I obviously will be sticking with my flightstick, but I can say without a doubt that this change has brought 3 friends of mine who have been sat on the fence playing War Thunder and will no doubt bring countless more. One question still worries them.

 

Will the highly populated full realism servers be featuring the ability for players to fly using mouse aim in the locked cockpit view? As I understand it, this will be a matter for the server administrators to enable/disable, but I feel that allowing mouse aim could be huge in introducing new players to the full flight simulator experience.

 

I'm concerned that this feature we will be switched off on these servers and I don't see players wanting to get into the simulator experience being alienated on the arcade/name tagged servers. I appreciate peoples concerns that mouse aim is a dumbed down method of control, but when locked in cockpit view with all conventional full realism restraints, the limitations in maneuverability applied to maintain steady flight is a huge disadvantage vs seasoned pilots using a joystick. I don't really see an issue of balance.

 

I'm excited for all the new blood it might bring to the full realism servers, I just hope we'll all be on the same servers.

[Finkeren]

Honestly: Once the old crowd realizes, that mouse users aren't getting an unfair advantage (quite the opposite) I think the incentive to run joystick-only servers will fade away. But for now, it's nice to have the opportunity in order to keep all sides happy.

[SR-F_Winger]

I met some mouseplayers. You can tell they fly mouse. They fall out of the sky pretty quick:)

Dont get the fuzz about mousercontrols either. Just allow it. Its no advantage over a proper joystick.

Its not like this is like SC Arena Commander where you control the actuall aim recticle. You actually just give a direction with the mouse and the plane follows. If it was like BOS in SC there were a million less complaint threads by angry joystickplayers over at the CIG forums. Including some I made:) In BOS is a superb implementation to get a first glimpse into the sim. Mousers will quickly realize that playing with a stick grants a big advantage.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Winger

[Jade_Monkey]

I only tested mouse controls for a minute but my feeling is that you shoud be able to out maneuver them pretty easily with a joystick

[-TBC-AeroAce]

This really bakes my noodle!!!!!!!!

 

 

MC is obviously gives a disadvantage! It says that when you select it FFS and if people gave it a 10 min spin they would see that!

 

We want more players, devs give us an avenue for this and guess what flight simmers are their own best enemy again immediately vilifying it.

 

And I know some one will say ok you are less maneuverable but hence more stable as a MC player so they will be able to snipe people!!!! Well I say that's your fault for flying straight in front of a plane

[Y-29.Silky]

Honestly: Once the old crowd realizes, that mouse users aren't getting an unfair advantage (quite the opposite) I think the incentive to run joystick-only servers will fade away. But for now, it's nice to have the opportunity in order to keep all sides happy.

 

You serious? Did you see the video? Look how accurate their aim is.. All they have to do is bnz and have boss accuracy. Same problem is in WT.

[Finkeren]

You serious? Did you see the video? Look how accurate their aim is.. All they have to do is bnz and have boss accuracy. Same problem is in WT.

If that situation does materialize I might agree, that it was a bad idea. Let's wait and see.

 

From what I know from RoF and have seen so far, I'm not holding my breath.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

 Well I say that's your fault for flying straight in front of a plane

 

And I say that bombers HAVE to flight straight for a bomb run, and that if they can be sniped out outside of their gunner's range (as it happens a lot in WT), then mouse control is to be adjusted for this.

 

Now I still didn't had the chance to try out the new update and see by myself if it's doable or not, so I won't complain yet, but your argument is bad sir 

 

I have the feeling that too many people here are reasoning about everything as if IL2 was a fighter only simulator.

Edited November 26, 2015 by F/JG300_Gruber

[Y-29.SugaBizkit]

You serious? Did you see the video? Look how accurate their aim is.. All they have to do is bnz and have boss accuracy. Same problem is in WT.

Gotta be honest, Silky. Try the mousaim in quick battles. It really is super derpy. I can't possibly imagine being outflown by someone using it.

 

 

Seriously, try it. It's nothing like wt mouse aim

Edited November 27, 2015 by Y-29.SugaBizkit

[Jade_Monkey]

Gotta be honest, Silky. Try the mousaim in quick battles. It really is super derpy. I can't possibly imagine being outflown by someone using it.

 

 

Seriously, try it. It's nothing like wt mouse aim

 

He likes to complain without actually using the features. Don't spoil his fun! 

[Y-29.SugaBizkit]

He likes to complain without actually using the features. Don't spoil his fun! 

 

 

I like to think I know him well enough lol.

 

He's a lot more reasonable then yall think. I swear!

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

From the comments of a people who bought it on this discount and cam straight from wt mouse aim seemed to be inferior and quite rough to handle, not even close to being intuitive. I guess something can be upgraded with it to make it more comfortable. 

 

And after flying myself against few mousaimers I really see no reason to believe that its just point and click like in wt, I can easily get away from their sights and as soon as we start maneuvering they are in a big trouble.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Most (all?) of the complaints, even since release, are about what might or could happen. Not sure I've seen a single complaint from anyone who has actually used it!

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

I literally just tried it.  It's nothing like mouse aim in War Thunder.  People can watch all the videos they want and claim it to be whatever they think.  Anyone who flies with a stick and actually tried to fly mouse control will realize their ignorance.

I would not mind flying against someone using it.

As someone said in another thread when TrackIR FIRST came out, people threw hissy fits saying it was going to ruin flight sims.......how did that really work out?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Most (all?) of the complaints, even since release, are about what might or could happen. Not sure I've seen a single complaint from anyone who has actually used it!

I have used it and still hold my concerns up. It's not only about what might happen, but also whats now and how this trend will likely develop.

 

Mauswaffe is just as I predicted it to be with the exception I couldnt find a way to map zoom to a button (didnt really bother though since it was a test only). It's way more accurate than a joystick and I found it quite well to manouvre with if hsimg it accordingly.

 

Just because we joystick folks may not handle it well doesn't mean others wont. Furthermore Mauswaffe is said to be experimental, means they may change sth about it to increase/decrease it's efficiency.

 

Also the palyer split I feared to happen was quite well observeable this week. About 50% of the joystick population went to mouse servers. This may develop further though as the patch and sale hype drop.

 

Saying all concerns are totally unlegitimated is straight ignorant.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Y-29.SugaBizkit]

I have used it and still hold my concerns up. It's not only about what might happen, but also whats now and how this trend will likely develop.

 

Mauswaffe is just as I predicted it to be with the exception I couldnt find a way to map zoom to a button (didnt really bother though since it was a test only). It's way more accurate than a joystick and I found it quite well to manouvre with if hsimg it accordingly.

 

Just because we joystick folks may not handle it well doesn't mean others wont. Furthermore Mauswaffe is said to be experimental, means they may change sth about it to increase/decrease it's efficiency.

 

Also the palyer split I feared to happen was quite well observeable this week. About 50% of the joystick population went to mouse servers. This may develop further though as the patch and sale hype drop.

 

Saying all concerns are totally unlegitimated is straight ignorant.

 

 

I think that player split has to do more with the fact that tanks are new, and that most of the new tankers are folks who either did normal already, or bought the game this past week.

 

Yesterday expert servers were full as heck.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

I have used it and still hold my concerns up. It's not only about what might happen, but also whats now and how this trend will likely develop.

 

Mauswaffe is just as I predicted it to be with the exception I couldnt find a way to map zoom to a button (didnt really bother though since it was a test only). It's way more accurate than a joystick and I found it quite well to manouvre with if hsimg it accordingly.

 

Just because we joystick folks may not handle it well doesn't mean others wont. Furthermore Mauswaffe is said to be experimental, means they may change sth about it to increase/decrease it's efficiency.

 

Also the palyer split I feared to happen was quite well observeable this week. About 50% of the joystick population went to mouse servers. This may develop further though as the patch and sale hype drop.

 

Saying all concerns are totally unlegitimated is straight ignorant.

Excuse me? You're going to complain about people going to different servers??? Heck, I've mainly been going on the Official Normal server, but I'm still using my stick. Also, mouse servers? REALLY? You're dividing the community more by ranking servers by their control scheme than the people going on them.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Excuse me? You're going to complain about people going to different servers??? Heck, I've mainly been going on the Official Normal server, but I'm still using my stick. Also, mouse servers? REALLY? You're dividing the community more by ranking servers by their control scheme than the people going on them.

No, but that doesn't change the fact I observed numbers of pilots on popular joystick servers like WoL down to half while the Normal server with mouse waffe allowed had mostly full population.

 

But again it's just a irst observation. We need to take a few weeks of development into account to get a clear picture of the trend.

[SharpeXB]

I'm not worried about a server split. If new features bring in more players then there will be full servers for every play style.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Hmm, notice you say 'ranking' not 'classifying', so I may be confused!

 

Whichever though, for me it is about choice and options, not ' better'.

I'm not sure either to be honest; I'm not sure what I was thinking at that time yesterday. I guess now it's out there though.

[FuriousMeow]

So anyway, back to the original point of the first post - no, there is absolutely no way external view will be allowed on "expert"/full difficulty servers. It can't be just based around the fact it is expert. If mouse players want to play there, they either deal with the cockpit or they upgrade. Otherwise, they can enjoy the normal servers or custom difficulty servers that allow external view.

 

Opening up external view on expert servers not only opens it up for mouse servers, but for everyone - which defeats the purpose of expert servers. There also isn't a way to track settings of the cowl flaps, oil flaps, radiator flaps, etc from external view so they couldn't play in external view anyway on expert servers. And adding that stuff to external view makes it even less expert. Basically to make mouse players feel like they are experts, the entire thing must be dumbed down in expert servers to not drive them away? Hell no.

 

Mouse players want to step up to "expert," they need to be able to play it the same as the rest of us and not with external views. There's a reason those servers are expert, and if these new mouse players want to learn the ropes long enough to play expert with their mouse - then they feel competent enough. If they aren't good enough with a mouse, then they can either keep playing the non-expert servers or they can finally decide they enjoy this enough to buy a cheap joystick for $30. It's not that <bleeping> expensive to buy one, many are cheaper than many "gaming" mice.

Edited December 1, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[StickMan]

The problem with mouse aim in War Thunder is that it is really not mouse control of the actual control surfaces. Mouse aim is you pointing in the direction you want the plane to go and the instructor flies the plane for you perfectly where you point him to. That's the reason for the unrealistic accuracy and the reason it says instructor on the HUD on the left of the screen.

 

You can actually fly with an instructor with a joystick as well in War thunder. However ther are some advantages of flying joystick in arcade mode without instructor as it will allow you to pull higher g's than a mouse aimer.As long as you use a control scheme that does not enable the instructor with the joystick. The problem is you must be really steady with the stick to stay in par with the mouse aimers. The instructor gives them perfect control at all times even when the plane is damaged giving the illusion that it is a God mode method of control.

 

It really was made as a training aid to get guys flying for the first time and that is why the instructor is on board. Unfortunately Gaijin never limited it's use and everybody just kept using it. There is an actual mouse control without instructor and you can test it by using it in simulator battles. You will notice right away it does not fly the same as mouse aim and the words instructor will not be on the HUD.

 

Now fortunately for us this is not the way it is implemented in this game. The mouse control allows the pilot to actually control the plane and not just point the instructor in the direction they want to go. In this way a person using a mouse has no unfair advantage in aiming.

Edited December 1, 2015 by GeneralZod

[Dakpilot]

^^^ informed opinion/facts instead of suposition and unsuported scare mongering elitist bias 

 

plus 1 from me

 

Cheers Dakpilot ​

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Don't agree with your coclusion. Mouse "controll" ingame works with the same principle as WTs mouse aim. Move the mouse, point in a direction and the virtual pilot steers his plane towards it as quick as possible while keeping his sight centered at the mouse cursor (of course without oversteering and eventually spinning the plane).

 

There are little differences, form example does BoS mouse "controll" not allow overwriting the actions of the virtual pilot by using keyboard commands and the mouse has a build in inertia to not react as fast and accurate to user inputs. Thats really just lipstick on a pig though.

 

The second mode you described, mouse joystick, is completely different from mouse aim/"controll". In this mode you have direct controll over the aircraft without an instructor restricting your inputs and flying perfectly stable. You can stall, spin and do all kinds of aerobatics with this controll mthod. It sure is harder to use than MA/"controll" and - I say this from a joystick's pilot perspective - arguably even more difficult to master than a joystick, but it works on the same principle and offers no priviledges/artificial disadvantages in combat.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Sokol1]

 

 

The problem with mouse aim in War Thunder is that it is really not mouse control of the actual control surfaces

 

In BoS is not much different, you point and the AI goes there, and maintain the plane in a stall proof condition.

You are not "flying" the plane, just guiding then. I "fly" - against AI - in this mode to get a idea, is not "guess".

 

The mouse now dont act like a "joystick" - as in previous mode.

 

No problem if people are happen in "fly" in this way, the worry is the path that this "gameplay" indicates, Call of Duty first versions are enjoyable, but due "gameplay" adds, in today versions guys jump "10" meters and walk in the walls. 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

"You are not "flying" the plane, just guiding then"... Do this, "fly by mouse" and incline the plane 45 for left, don't command more, look at control column in cockpit and see AI moving then for right for limit the inclination.

[Jade_Monkey]

so the logical question arises if joystick users should be allowed in mouse servers

Actually I never thought of it that way. Fair question!

[Finkeren]

It is posible to set up a mouse-only server, though it appears noone has chosen to do that yet.

[Feathered_IV]

I suspect there will be plenty of experienced joystick users joining the mouse servers for some easy kills. The same thing happens in RoF in the newbie servers.

[SYN_Mike77]

I have yet to see a mouse server in MP. I have seen joystick only servers and open servers that allow both but I have not yet seen a mouse server.  Just because people are going to the open servers doesn't mean they are using a mouse.  It seems to me that the open servers usually have normal settings and the joystick only seem to have expert settings.Maybe people are going to those open servers not for the mouse control but for the markers that tell you who is friendly and who is enemy and how far away they are?

[sturmkraehe]

I just tried the mouse control once. I did not fiddle with any other key bindings so I was not able to zoom in and out and trackir did not work for looking around (I flew in cockpit mode on normal server so don't know how it works with external views). I don't know WT (don't own it). While steering the plane was a bit difficult I am quite certain that with some exercise I will be able to steer it well. I however think that aerobatics is probably a bit difficult and mouse control won't be my first choice in a dogfight for maneuvering. However shakey my steering was I was still able to hit a fleeing FW190 from quite a distance during my first flight. While it was not lethal at this point I am quite certain that I can learn to become a sniper with lethal hits from 6 astern on a fleeing target at some distance with sufficient exercise. With joystick I am absolutely incapable to keep the aim that steady like the AI pilot who flies the plane in my place can. Imho this takes away the current speed advantage for axis planes because with snipering distancing is less important. May be an aspect for balancing the current fm but many of us who like some historical accuracy might not like that (I say this as a predominantly red flying pilot).

 

While I don't mind that some servers keep the choice open I am happy that quite a few select joystick only option.

Edited December 1, 2015 by sturmkraehe

[Matt]

It is posible to set up a mouse-only server, though it appears noone has chosen to do that yet.

It's not possible to set up a mouse-only server.

[HippyDruid]

I have been visiting the normal server quite a bit this week, specifically to fly with mouse controls and icons on.

It's been a great way to introduce a couple of people to the sim.

 

Also as SYN_Mike77 mentioned it makes gauging distances that little bit easier too. Which for a new player, removes quite a bit of frustration.

 

I wouldn't bother with the mouse controls for flight on an expert server (that's what my newly modded g940 is for), but I don't think they should be limited either.

 

[Y-29.Silky]

We're all used to joysticks, just because we suck at mouse aim and IL-2's mouse aim isn't as easy as War Thunder's doesn't mean the people who are used to flying with a mouse won't adapt to being competitive with a mouse.

 

However shakey my steering was I was still able to hit a fleeing FW190 from quite a distance during my first flight. I can learn to become a sniper with lethal hits from 6 astern on a fleeing target at some distance with sufficient exercise.

With joystick I am absolutely incapable to keep the aim that steady

 

As for IL-2, I just tried mouse aim for 30mins or so and the above is what I experienced. Maneuvering was a challenge for me, but...

1. Near perfect aircraft attitude (aka energy management).
2. Near perfect aerial gunnery.
3. I barely had to move my mouse.

Things joystick users struggle with the most.

 

All a mouse pilot has to do to be competitive in an expert server such as WoL, is hop in an F-4, climb high where they're nearly untouchable, dive on a target, land hits from 800m away, and zoom climb with level attitude causing insane energy management. The Luftwaffe Space Program would be expanding it's program and accepting whole new group of pilots. 

 

 

Mouse players want to step up to "expert," they need to be able to play it the same as the rest of us

 

100%. 

Adding mouse aim to IL-2 is great, it brings in more people from WT who want to upgrade to a real flight sim, and that's the exact point, for them to upgrade to a real flight sim.

Normal servers and 1C Expert servers that combine tanks and aircraft is fine with me concerning mouse aim. 

But the other popular air only expert servers, please no.

 

------

 

Many people here spend hours mastering their joysticks and flying skills, I'm not for having people who've been flying in the expert servers to have to dummy down to people who'd rather spend $60 on Fallout 4 than a $30 joystick, or are just too lazy to learn how to fly with one, in a flight sim.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Well, as the fleeing 190 pilot I think I should add a little perspective here. Sturmkraehe dove on me and had a temporary E advantage out of his dive while I was trying to intervene in a 1v1 at just over 500 kph. I spotted him, late, well above me at about 790m and dove for the deck. I saw his first tracers a few seconds later.

 

I rolled out and started maneuvering while he landed 2-4 hits inside 350m. I continued maneuvering while bleeding his energy with small jinks. As I began to extend I don't think he landed any more hits. At about 440-450m, just before I was planning to step climb him, I had a prop strike on a tree, awarding him the kill. I don't take anything away from him on the kill but I don't think the mouse aim had much to do with it. I've been hit both more and fewer times in various similar situations, as well as run down, before mouse aim was introduced. There weren't any extreme distances involved in this case.

 

Does the mouse assist prevent the pilot from abusing his engine? I've had Yak's stay in a footrace much longer which would negate any instability in aiming. Longer contact = more opportunity to fire. I didn't expect to extend as easily as I did in this chase. I'm an average dogfighter at best but I manage E very well.

 

Being in the normal server with icons made it really easy to know distances with accuracy in this case.

 

~S Sturm!

Edited December 2, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[StickMan]

So basically most guys problems with it is that it's like sniping with a mouse in call of duty where the mouse offers just a bit more stability over a game controller?

[SharpeXB]

Looking at the OP question. Although it would certainly be possible to have a "full real" server which allows mouse control, the fact is that the large majority of mouse users would be on the Normal severs and nearly all the players who want the "full real" mode would have joysticks. Mouse Control is a good feature to add to the sim but there should be an incentive for a player to up their game skill to using actual flight controls. The ability to play on the more realistic servers is that incentive.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

So basically most guys problems with it is that it's like sniping with a mouse in call of duty where the mouse offers just a bit more stability over a game controller?

No, it's sniping + very good stability (harsh movements can lead to slight oscilation, because the virtual pilot pulls crazy manouvres trying to move the aim quickly - that's just a matter fo a second though). + some unmentioned things.

 

If more people were into MA mechanics and how mouse joystick differs from that I guess more would tend to preferr the later. Mouse "controll" is not a beginners tool, as it just differs too much to allow a connecting learning curve.

 

It's like comparing this:

 

to that

and saying both are about equal despite noticeably technical differences. It just isn't. And it's obvious not everybody who can drive a tricycle will move on to drive a high end motorbike.

[sturmkraehe]

Well, as the fleeing 190 pilot I think I should add a little perspective here. Sturmkraehe dove on me and had a temporary E advantage out of his dive while I was trying to intervene in a 1v1 at just over 500 kph. I spotted him, late, well above me at about 790m and dove for the deck. I saw his first tracers a few seconds later.

 

I rolled out and started maneuvering while he landed 2-4 hits inside 350m. I continued maneuvering while bleeding his energy with small jinks. As I began to extend I don't think he landed any more hits. At about 440-450m, just before I was planning to step climb him, I had a prop strike on a tree, awarding him the kill. I don't take anything away from him on the kill but I don't think the mouse aim had much to do with it. I've been hit both more and fewer times in various similar situations, as well as run down, before mouse aim was introduced. There weren't any extreme distances involved in this case.

 

Does the mouse assist prevent the pilot from abusing his engine? I've had Yak's stay in a footrace much longer which would negate any instability in aiming. Longer contact = more opportunity to fire. I didn't expect to extend as easily as I did in this chase. I'm an average dogfighter at best but I manage E very well.

 

Being in the normal server with icons made it really easy to know distances with accuracy in this case.

 

~S Sturm!

 

 

Hi Murf,

 

of course I had an advantage. Mouce control does not generate energy or provides a good shooting position by itself. And I did not want to brag about my kill (I have shot down surely a lot over the past 10 years of flight combat simming so no need for me to prove my dogfighting skills to anybody). My point was that while I was completely neophyte in MC I was capable to score some hits on a fleeing FW (and you were gaining distance with respect to me). As I yesterday said in the chat it was purely test as I wanted to see how I perform with MC with respect to JC. I wrote my post with the sole purpose to explain that I think after my experiment that MC allows better aiming (not maneuvring) than with JC, the latter not allowing that steady aim as MC. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by sturmkraehe

[MadisonV44]

MC is also an assistance to flight maneuver based on optimized FM, just like AI use (Best path is chosen)

So it's definitely an unfair advantage vs a full real pilots with joysticks and ruder.

 

I will never go in a server mixing the two. Those things should be kept separated !