Has anyone bagged a T-34 with the Panzer III yet?

[Finkeren]

Yes you are right. I think the main effort of the AA-MGs, was to hold attacking aircrafts a bit more on distance, when firing or throwing bombs.

 

That, or simply make them miss their shot. A LMG bullet to the windscreen of a, IL-2 won't bring the aircraft down, but it will certainly startle the pilot enough to miss with his attack.

[Reflected]

That, or simply make them miss their shot. A LMG bullet to the windscreen of a, IL-2 won't bring the aircraft down, but it will certainly startle the pilot enough to miss with his attack.

 

I can agree with that, but the crew of the He111 I flamed with a 1 sec burst won't... 

[Finkeren]

Most players of this sim, know the psychology of this all too well: If you're flying directly towards a target that's firing back, you better break off your attack if you value your life. People who press home their attacks often end up dead.

I can agree with that, but the crew of the He111 I flamed with a 1 sec burst won't... 

 

I thought people were claiming that AI gunners in planes were far too deadly?

[216th_Jordan]

Anyway, what are the weak spots of the T-34 and PzIII to be really aiming for?

If i take a PzIII and get up close to a t34 and aim between turret and hull I still need a couple of shots to get a kill, I don't seem to be able to get a one-shot-kill at short distance and it looks like the tank dm is working somehow Health-bar alike. would that be true?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The main reason, why aircrafts weren´t shot down by tanks in real life, is that the tankcrews were not sitting there looking holes in the air, to see where is an aircraft comming, I can shoot down. Their aim was the fighting against ground targets, especially enemytanks, but also infantry with antitank weapons. So that was the thing, they were concentrated on, because this was the main danger for them.

You know, I used to think that too but at least according to Yegorova (Anna Timofeyeva, Lieutenant, Il-2 pilot) Shturmovik pilots were quite wary of tank guns because they were remarkably accurate and deadly. If I remember correctly the problem was if you pressed too hard in the attack and got low and close to the target, the tank would hit you right after you flew past it with the main gun. I'll check through the book and add the quote here when I find it.

[Finkeren]

You know, I used to think that too but at least according to Yegorova (Anna Timofeyeva, Lieutenant, Il-2 pilot) Shturmovik pilots were quite wary of tank guns because they were remarkably accurate and deadly. If I remember correctly the problem was if you pressed too hard in the attack and got low and close to the target, the tank would hit you right after you flew past it with the main gun. I'll check through the book and add the quote here when I find it.

Honestly, that sounds like an urban legend.

 

Tank main guns are no less accurate than autocannon or machine guns, but hitting an aircraft in flight requires more than just accuracy. A regular battle tank would have no way of doing proper range estimation and deflection against an aircraft, even if it's passing right overhead, the gunner would have only a fraction of a second to react and no training in shooting at a target at such high speeds. Tanks carried no rounds with proximity fuses, so you'd have to hit squarely with that single shot.

 

I just don't see it happening as anything other than freak stroke of luck.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I skimmed through the book here, seems like most hits were actually head on and at least according to the author (i.e. anecdotal source) this happened quite often whenever someone would go too low in the attack run and presented the tank gunner with a low-angle target, claiming a good few pilots supposedly. To be honest I can see it happening if it's a big slow-flying Il-2 shot from a very short distance, though the odds are indeed terrible and it's as likely as taking a direct hit from a 88mm flak cannon at low altitude. But every now and then it happened, and I wouldn't blame any pilot from pulling up 30-50m earlier for good measure.

[Finkeren]

It would seem slightly less unlikely in the case of shooting at an approaching aircraft, but still it's really a long shot (no pun intended)

Basically, only the tank being directly attacked by the Ilyushin would have a steady enough target to have any chance in the first place, and even a "slow flying" IL-2 would be closing at +300km/h or just short of 100m/s, leaving the gunner only a handful of seconds to lay his aim, and misjudging by just a fraction of a second would cause the shot to miss entirely.

 

88mm flak is completely different. They used proximity fuses in their shells against low flying targets, were crewed by gunners trained in hitting targets in flight and equipped with proper tools for finding range, altitude heading and speed.

 

I'd still dismiss it as hearsay, until presented with hard evidence.

[JtD]

I don't think the Germans had proximity fuses in that sense, timed fuses, yes, but not proximity. As always, I'd be happy to learn if I'm wrong.

 

Also, I don't think every gun on every tank the Il-2's attacked was an 88mm gun, in fact I don't even think that every tank they attacked was a tank. But even if it was a comparably fast training/turning turret/tank and a rapid firing gun, even tracking a plane from inside a tank is hard. Hitting it is just really lucky luck.

[Finkeren]

I don't think the Germans had proximity fuses in that sense, timed fuses, yes, but not proximity. As always, I'd be happy to learn if I'm wrong.

Sorry, you're right, my memory failed me. The German projects never saw service, only the British and American forces used their inventions, and apparently the most-used system required that the target be illuminated with a doppler-radar from the ground.

[Matt]

Anyway, what are the weak spots of the T-34 and PzIII to be really aiming for?

If i take a PzIII and get up close to a t34 and aim between turret and hull I still need a couple of shots to get a kill, I don't seem to be able to get a one-shot-kill at short distance and it looks like the tank dm is working somehow Health-bar alike. would that be true?

That's the spot. One hit is enough. And there's no health-bar.

 

Edited December 3, 2015 by Matt

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Fair enough, Finkeren. I see your point

 

The little research I did provided some extra detail from the German side (which claimed it happened, but less often than the Soviets say). Supposedly the tank gunners tried their luck when the Il-2s would come down in formation to drop PTABs after realising that the Ilyushas flew extremely predictable patterns and were forbidden from deviating from the formation. Carius' gunner shot down a strafing Il-2 with the Tiger's 88 gun. From 1943 onwards T-34 drivers were also trained on AA gunnery, with instructions being to shoot planes armed with AT weapons (BK 37 and so on) with the main gun, planes armed with bombs and such with the machine gun and finally if it's just an annoying strafing aircraft ignore it and leave it to the fighters. Of course, one in a million, but it seems a careless pilot approaching straight from the tank's 6' at a nice and smooth 30 degrees approach is setting themselves up for a rare yet deadly cannon round in the face

 

Some incidents involving Romanian Hs-129s:

 

On 10 September 1943, 16 Hs-129B-2s of the Romanian 8th Assault Group were flying very low, as usual, at 10-15 m. From a cornfield, a camouflaged T-34 fired one shot, which cut off a part of the wing of the aircraft of Oblt. Dieter Orth, the German liaison officer. The plane hit the ground and exploded instantly. The rest of the aircraft quickly gained altitude and discovered 8 hidden T-34s, which had infiltrated behind Axis lines. They returned to the airfield, reloaded and went back to the cornfield. Within 10 minutes all had been destroyed.

There at least another such incident incident involving an Hs-129B hit by an AP shell fired by a tank, that just went through the fuselage, without downing the aircraft.

 

US 9th Armored Division records:

 

... Considerable resistance was encountered at Fritzlar, site of a large German airport. CC A captured 15 planes and another aircraft was shot down by Cpl. Odus C. Todd, Eubank, Ky., 14th Tank Bn. A round from Todd's 76mm struck the plane in the tail assembly, promptly bringing it down....

[216th_Jordan]

That's the spot. One hit is enough. And there's no health-bar.

 

1.jpg

 

 

Thank you! Still need two shots on those but its way better! Where did you find that picture? I tired finding some useful information on weak spots but failed for the front side (I read somewhere to hit between turret and Hull, but that did not bring a real change. (It also seems to me that in a selfmade mission on the editor tanks are more tough by default - might be wrong though)

[Sokol1]

[Sokol1]

That's the spot. One hit is enough. And there's no health-bar.

 

1.jpg

 

 

Is know what the maximum effective range of German AP against T-34?

 

Yesterday in DED (NORMAL) I hit several AP shells on T-34 back - he was stuck on trees - for no effect, I think due the distance, ~1.500 meters.

 

The reload time of Panzer should not be fast than T-34 (as IRL)?

As well the time for move the turret?

 

RO-2 T-34-76 hit zones:

 

http://i.imgur.com/GSxlp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jf89r0e.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/b1F0JuA.jpg

Edited December 4, 2015 by Sokol1

[Matt]

Thank you! Still need two shots on those but its way better! Where did you find that picture? I tired finding some useful information on weak spots but failed for the front side (I read somewhere to hit between turret and Hull, but that did not bring a real change. (It also seems to me that in a selfmade mission on the editor tanks are more tough by default - might be wrong though)

I found the tank picture on the internet and the weak spot by testing ingame and i painted the red stuff on the picture myself. One shot should be enough, if it penetrates (which it doesn't have to, depending on angle and range). Tanks always have the same toughness, no matter if it's a custom mission or MP.

 

 

 

Is know what the maximum effective range of German AP against T-34?

 

Armor on the side and back is about the same on the T-34 and i think expecting a penetration at 1000 meters is realistic with the 50mm Prgr.39. Anything above that distance would be optimistic.

 

Reload time should probably be faster on the Panzer III, but then the reload time would also depend on were the loader would take the round from (ammo is stored in many different places).