Has anyone bagged a T-34 with the Panzer III yet?

[Feathered_IV]

I'm enjoying the latest update and have been very pleased by the addition of the two tanks. The T-34 seems to do very well and I was able to take out a dozen or more enemy vehicles last night. The PzIII however wasn't so fortunate. I managed to advance within metres of a T-34 and placed hits all over its sides and rear but couldn't get a kill. I'm wondering how others are getting on with this. Any success yet?

[Cybermat47]

I got a kill. Video coming soon.

 

IMO the Panzer IV should be playable, not the III. The IV is more on par with the T-34.

[Willy__]

I got some players t34's with the stuka 3.7cm, does it count ? 

[SpaydCBR]

I must've shot around 20 AP rounds into T-34s within 300 meters today and did not get a single kill, while I would commonly get one-shotted right when I spawned. Even some of the Allies were saying how ridiculous it was. Most unbalanced experience I've ever had in a video game.

 

I understand it's experimental and I'm sure they'll balance it somehow, but until then, I'll unfortunately have to go back to doing my tanking in War Thunder. I was really excited for this

 

On a positive note, I could definitely see the potential fun these playable tanks add to the game!

[Original_Uwe]

Well didn't the 34 totally outclass the mk III?

[migmadmarine]

Mmm, a Panzer III F or L like what we've got (don't recall which is in game) wouldn't do much to a T-34 STZ (or any other post 1940 model) from the front, best chance from side shots at ~300 meters or less. Also, T-34's tend to be veunerable when hit between the tops of the second and third road wheel (counting front to back) as there is a fuel tank and ammunition rack behind this spot, as well as the legs of the gunner and loader. 

[Finkeren]

Most unbalanced experience I've ever had in a video game!

You weren't around at the start of BoS early access, when it was just LaGG-3s vs Bf 109F4s with no time limits on the engine?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Well didn't the 34 totally outclass the mk III?

No. The 5cm L/60 was a high velocity gun specially fitted to counter T-34. With PzGr. 39 it had ~70mm armour penetration at 500m. I too encoutnered some T-34s in close combat (up to 20m) and one of which took 15 shells of AP from the drivers hatch, sides and turret front. Apparently his turret was stuck and he looked damaged but still managed to drive away.

 

So yea it seems quite unblanced.

[Gump]

I killed a few t-34's tonight... all from very close range 200m or less. I shot a couple at point blank and they rolled away, but some not. close range side of turret got them, or once/twice in the tracks from side. might have got one through open hatch from front, but he got me and I didn't see kill for me.

but agreed - easier in t34.

however, I got blasted/killed in a t34 from the front a few times.. must be a secret soft spot.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Gump

[LLv24_Zami]

I got few T-34s last night in those SP missions. The battle takes place in a village, I took shots at ranges under 300 meters. It took couple of rounds to destroy T-34, mostly from a side. Aiming is important. This was just a quick test and maybe I was lucky 

 

I think the balancing is the wrong word here as with the flight simulation part. Historical accuracy is the way to go. T-34 has a advantage as it should have but it is not indestructible.

Panzer IIIL that we have in game should have a fair chance against T-34 even head on at ranges under 500m.

[Reflected]

Penetration, armor, speed are very well modeled, bit the Pz.III is totally outclassed by the T-34. It's a turkey shoot. A historically accurate one, but still a turkey shoot.

 

1-2 hits are enough to take you out when you are in a Panzer. The first one will surely wound you or immobilize you. Yesterday I watched as 3 of my shots just bounced off a T-34.

 

Again, I think tanks are a great addition, well modeled, but the choice of adversaries is very, very poor. It would be so much fun if only they were closer in performance.

 

To quote someone who knows more about tanks than I do:

 

 

PzIII have 70 mm front armor and 30mm on other sides. And it's armor is vertical.

T34 have 45mm armour angeled for 60°. So its armor's equivalent is close to 90mm.

 

PzIII have armor piercing up to 68mm at 500m.

T34 have armor piercing up to 77mm at 500m.

[Feathered_IV]

I noticed last night that AI anti tank guns don't seem to target humans. I blundered out of some shrubbery, straight into the muzzle of a Pak40 and it didn't react. I was able to run round behind it and take it out without any resistance.

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

We should have gotten the IV with long barrel. F-2 if Im right

 

Or maybe an 88 which can be transported with truck and deployed. Would balance things out since it cant move(when firing) but got devestating firepower. Can also be used at AA roles

Edited November 25, 2015 by McKvack

[pilotpierre]

No trouble knocking T34's out in the SP missions.

[III/JG2Gustav05]

the data below is 50mm APCR penetration data to steel armor plate laid back at 30° from the vertical

PzGr. 40 (Armour-piercing, composite, rigid)

• Weight of projectile: 0.9 kg (2 lb 0 oz)
  
• Muzzle velocity: 1,180 m/s (3,900 ft/s)
  

100 m      500 m      1000 m 

130 mm   72 mm     38 mm 

 

PzGr. 40/1 (Armour-piercing, composite, rigid)

• Weight of projectile: 1.06 kg (2 lb 5 oz)
  
• Muzzle velocity: 1,130 m/s (3,700 ft/s)
  

100 m    500 m    

116 mm 76 mm

 

so for vertical amour the valve should be multiplied by 1.164.

for in stance 76 mm for 30° equals to 88.46 mm for vertical amour besides T34 has some weak points such as driver's hatch and turret amour is not as robust as hull amour etc. So if closer than 500m PZIII long barrel still has chances.

[CheeseGromit]

We should have gotten the IV with long barrel. F-2 if Im right

 

I'm no history buff but in the editor at least, the Panzer IV in IL2 BoS is listed as the G model.

[Fliegel]

I managed to destroyed T-34 at cca 600m ans some at 100m and less. Without commanders view its hard to confirm the hit at longer distances thanks to all that smoke.

 

I noticed though that often both sides have troubles to do anything. I was turetless right next to pair of T-34 who shot me dozen times or so before finaly destroy my PzIII.

 

Crashing do nothing. You can crash into tree at full speed without any damage to the crew. At the night mission I even crash into enemy T-34 and we both could start shooting immediately.

 

Also been killed by AAA twice ! So AI do target players.

[Finkeren]

I only got to try the T-34 for a short while last night, so I can't speak to how the two compare, but I was thinking:

 

Does the Panzer III have better optics (and hence better accuracy) and shorter loading time than than the T-34? By any account it should have, which would be a massive advantage. 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

I shot AI T-34s at point blank range with the 5cm on the front and side (luckilly they are stupid enough to let me do that), nothing.

 

Meanwhile I let a Panzer III machine gun my T-34 with drivers hatch open, nothing happened.

[Finkeren]

Meanwhile I let a Panzer III machine gun my T-34 with drivers hatch open, nothing happened.

 

I'm pretty certain, that driving with the hatch open simply reduces overall armour protection on the front. So shooting MG bullets directly into the open hatch will do nothing.

 

No, it's not realistic, but we were warned: This is not a full fledged tank sim. Everything is going to be an approximation.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

I'm pretty certain, that driving with the hatch open simply reduces overall armour protection on the front. So shooting MG bullets directly into the open hatch will do nothing.

 

No, it's not realistic, but we were warned: This is not a full fledged tank sim. Everything is going to be an approximation.

Oh yeah, I certainly wasn't expecting in the first release to be full Steel Beasts.

[Brano]

No. The 5cm L/60 was a high velocity gun specially fitted to counter T-34. With PzGr. 39 it had ~70mm armour penetration at 500m. I too encoutnered some T-34s in close combat (up to 20m) and one of which took 15 shells of AP from the drivers hatch, sides and turret front. Apparently his turret was stuck and he looked damaged but still managed to drive away.

 

So yea it seems quite unblanced.

 

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=133403

 

The T34s front hull armour was 45mm thick and sloped at 60 degrees if measured with the vertical = 0 degrees. If you measure with vertical = 90 degrees, the slope is 30 degrees.

The Panzerworld calculator uses vertical = 90 degrees, so if you want to calculate the distance through the armour, you should enter 45mm armour and a slope of 30 degrees which will produce the correct result, 90mm thickness.

 

In reality, the resistance of the armour is much greater due to the fact that a round hitting the sloped surface will not go straight in, but be deflected. Exactly how this works in a very complex issue, but a simple calculation (not taking into account armour and ammunition quality) based on the formula devised by Bird & Livingston (transforming resistance to vertical good US quality RHA armour) gives an armour resistance of 45mm armour sloped at 60 degrees (T-34 front hull armour) against 5cm AP (like the 5cm PzGr) of around 170mm. Against 5cm APC (like 5cm PzGr 39) the value drops to about 135mm. Similarily converted penetration data for the 5cm L/60 gun is 97mm for AP and 101mm for APC, so the T34 front hull armour would be impenetrable according to this calculation, just like it was in real life.

 

 

[Elem]

No trouble knocking T34's out in the SP missions.

Thought they were only available in MP?

[Finkeren]

Thought they were only available in MP?

 

No, they are available in SP as well, if you build a mission for them.

[Reflected]

So in short, it's all good and accurate, but the German side is scr*wed until they release a better tank?

 

Speaking of the gameplay in general, what do you think? I think they hit a sweet spot between accuracy and simplicity, and I'm happy they implemented tanks.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=133403

 

The T34s front hull armour was 45mm thick and sloped at 60 degrees if measured with the vertical = 0 degrees. If you measure with vertical = 90 degrees, the slope is 30 degrees.

The Panzerworld calculator uses vertical = 90 degrees, so if you want to calculate the distance through the armour, you should enter 45mm armour and a slope of 30 degrees which will produce the correct result, 90mm thickness.

 

In reality, the resistance of the armour is much greater due to the fact that a round hitting the sloped surface will not go straight in, but be deflected. Exactly how this works in a very complex issue, but a simple calculation (not taking into account armour and ammunition quality) based on the formula devised by Bird & Livingston (transforming resistance to vertical good US quality RHA armour) gives an armour resistance of 45mm armour sloped at 60 degrees (T-34 front hull armour) against 5cm AP (like the 5cm PzGr) of around 170mm. Against 5cm APC (like 5cm PzGr 39) the value drops to about 135mm. Similarily converted penetration data for the 5cm L/60 gun is 97mm for AP and 101mm for APC, so the T34 front hull armour would be impenetrable according to this calculation, just like it was in real life.

 

 

There is also a high hardness multiplier (since most Soviet tanks of WW2 except early KV used very high hardness armour) would give a 0.83 multiplier vs 50mm  projectile (just after pg24), so  effective is reduced to 140mm vs AP and 112mm vs 50mm APC. Also, APCR is inneffective against the front hull of T-34. This is supported by Panzertruppen vol 1 which pretty much said the only way for Panzer III to get T-34 reliably was to hit the turret or sides, even with APCR, APCR was pretty much exclusively used only vs KV.

 

Doing some more testing on my own, the only way I found to destroy T-34 reliable is to hit the turret. The sides are still seem to not recieve much damage.

Edited November 25, 2015 by RoflSeal

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

So in short, it's all good and accurate, but the German side is scr*wed until they release a better tank?

 

No,the german side is happy if theur guns acchieve hitorical performance.

 

Anyway I din't really mind it as long as I get 20 FPS while driving tanks so there's plenty of time to review and adress it.

 

The Pz.III DM seems nice. I managed to take some shots from my angled frontal armour but once you get hit on the side it's certain doom like it should. Wished the same would account for the T-34 (incase of sucessfull penetration).

Edited November 25, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Finkeren]

OK, I got my first real taste of tank battle this morning by joining the official all-tank expert server.

 

I gotta say, as simple as it is, it was a lot of fun. I tried both tanks, and I really like the way they are portrayed. The look, sound and "feel" is quite different between the two. Especially in the T-34 you definately get the sense of a much more rough and unsophisticated machine. It felt heavier, less responsive, particularly in the turret.

 

I was pleasantly surprised to find, that you can actually ride open hatch in the turret with the full tank visible beneath you. The level of detail in damage was also a nice surprise. In one session I experienced to have crewmembers killed in all three positions (the ones that actually matter: Driver, gunner and loader) at least I think that's what's happened, because I got no messages. I had my engine damaged (very nice sound of the rough-running and struggling engine), engine knocked out completely, fire break out (which eventually destroyed the tank) gun knocked out, one track damaged (pulled the tank to the side when driving) and one track destroyed (resulting in the tank doing dounts on the spot when trying to move) 

 

All in all, it's a lot better and more detailed than I anticipated. Of course there are still things to tweak and a few things I'd like added: A bail out function (preferably with crew visibly leaving the tank), a visible indication, that a player is riding hatch open (so you can target the guy popping out of the turret) and a bit more complex control scheme.

 

This is not and never will be a tank sim, but this is more than just a fun gimmick, it's actually really engaging and the posibilities are huge. Can't wait to see, where we're going with this.

 

Back on topic: In the battle I definately noticed the survivability of the T-34 being better against the Panzer III (as would be expected) But it's by no means invincible. With the Pazer III I actually found it easier to hit with the gun (I think it had something to do with the tank feeling overall more stable) and I knocked out two AI T-34s at shortish range on my first spawn. The T-34 felt much more primitive and harder to use effectively, though it often killed with a single shot. A Panzer IV F2 would propably be a better match, but overall it's much less lopsided than LaGG-3 vs. Bf 109F4 in BoS early access.

 

A question: How do you guys go about range finding? I worked through guesstimates and sometimes misjudged completely even at ranges below 1000m and at other times hit spot on, much to my own surprise. Is there a way to more accurately find ranges? 

[Matt]

You have to hit the T-34 hull from the side right under the turret. If you hit it there and the round penetrates (depends range and attack angle) it's usually a guaranteed kill. Trying to penetrate the front armor is a waste of time, you're better of retreating and flanking in this case.

 

The German AP round is the Pzgr. 39 btw, we don't have the Pzgr. 40 (yet?).

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

 

 

A question: How do you guys go about range finding? I worked through guesstimates and sometimes misjudged completely even at ranges below 1000m and at other times hit spot on, much to my own surprise. Is there a way to more accurately find ranges? 

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Zeiss_Optics.htm

 

Similar system used by Russian sights

Edited November 25, 2015 by RoflSeal

[Finkeren]

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Zeiss_Optics.htm

 

Similar system used by Russian sights

 

Very useful. Thanks

[Brano]

For the next release they could do KV and either Pzkpfw IVF2 or StuGIIIF and kubelwagen with GAZ or jeep.I wouldn't mind driving ZIS or Opel Blitz trucks either

[csThor]

I'm no history buff but in the editor at least, the Panzer IV in IL2 BoS is listed as the G model.

 

The differences between a late-model Ausf. F (aka F2) and an early-model Ausf. G are minimal and not relevant for anyone but a rivet-counting history buff or scale modeler. The only externally visible difference between an Ausf. F2 / early Ausf. G and a mid-production Ausf. G is the new two-chamber muzzle break on the mid-production Ausf. G. The early ones still had the earlier "ball"-type muzzle break.

 

People should be careful to look at raw technical stats and historical battle outcomes, because the very factors that allowed german forces to run essentially roughshod over soviet forces in the approach to Stalingrad don't matter in a simulation or PC game (vastly superior Command&Control on the german side, reliable radio equipment in german tanks vs near-total inflexibility in battle on the soviet side due to near universal lack of radio equipment - resulting in virtually no tactical control once in combat, combined arms structures and doctrine of the Wehrmacht vs massive coordination problems in the Red Army etc). Tank combat in BoS/BoM is going to be a slugfest, plain and simple.

Edited November 25, 2015 by csThor

[Finkeren]

For the next release they could do KV and either Pzkpfw IVF2 or StuGIIIF and kubelwagen with GAZ or jeep.I wouldn't mind driving ZIS or Opel Blitz trucks either

 

If they would keep it to tanks and armoured cars for now, I'd be a happy camper. Then let's have the posibility to direct artillery batteries from a plane or a command vehicle.

[Cybermat47]

Here's me taking out a T-34 with a Panzer III.

 

[VIDEO]

[/VIDEO]

 

Please note that VesseL didn't know how to fire the cannons at this time.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Cybermat47

[Brano]

Does not have to be slugfest if LW will pull their panzerwaffe out of trouble properly as it did in real.That's the good thing about having possibility of combined arms now.Its only up to players what they will make of it.Of course it will never be as in real,but hey,we play for fun,we are not real soldiers,nobody will force us to obey orders or shoot us in head if we fail

[Feathered_IV]

I was pleasantly surprised to find, that you can actually ride open hatch in the turret with the full tank visible beneath you.

 

If you don't mind me asking, how did you manage that?

[Finkeren]

If you don't mind me asking, how did you manage that?

 

Simple: You switch to the gunners position and press "Ralt+C" as you would to open the hatch in the drivers seat as well.

 

(It looks a little strange, especially on the T-34, because the hatch doesn't actually open, so it looks like you're sitting on top of the closed hatch - hopefully something that can be remedied at a later point)

 

As great as the view is, you really feel vulnerable up there, and forget about aiming the gun at anything but point blank range. Sadly you can't use TrackIR up there, so you have to actually turn the turret to look around (another thing that can posibly be improved)

Edited November 25, 2015 by Finkeren

[Feathered_IV]

Sweet! I'll give it a go.

[Siegfried]

Simple: You switch to the gunners position and press "Ralt+C" as you would to open the hatch in the drivers seat as well.

 

(It looks a little strange, especially on the T-34, because the hatch doesn't actually open, so it looks like you're sitting on top of the closed hatch - hopefully something that can be remedied at a later point)

 

As great as the view is, you really feel vulnerable up there, and forget about aiming the gun at anything but point blank range. Sadly you can't use TrackIR up there, so you have to actually turn the turret to look around (another thing that can posibly be improved)

 

You can look around with trackir if press T key before. But then the gun is fixed and you can't fire. Press T again for unlock the turret and fire again.