What's the wobbling thing ?

[indiaciki]

Did anybody experience wobble in ROF ? I had an issue with the SE5 - coulnd't get her out of a spin until I changed curves  (trim down as neutral). might be the same thing. here's a video after altering pitch curves. 

 

 

behaving narmally.

 

in neutral (deault) she was not recoverable at all though the SE5 was easy to recover.

 

i'm sure it's all about pitch settings. planes tend to climb when they shouldn't.

 

Asking the DEVS: why not implement ROF curves in BOS & BOM ?

Edited December 15, 2015 by indiaciki

[SharpeXB]

 i'm sure it's all about pitch settings. planes tend to climb when they shouldn't.

 

It's normal for all the WWI era planes to be tail heavy, the pilot had to continually hold the stick forward to fly level. A few like the SE5 had adjustable stabilizers. So the pitch sensitivity question is more complicated in RoF. Your spring centered stick is actually back of center which means holding it forward even more than you would in reality. The aerodynamic center is in front of the spring center.

[indiaciki]

It's normal for all the WWI era planes to be tail heavy, the pilot had to continually hold the stick forward to fly level. A few like the SE5 had adjustable stabilizers. So the pitch sensitivity question is more complicated in RoF. Your spring centered stick is actually back of center which means holding it forward even more than you would in reality. The aerodynamic center is in front of the spring center.

 

you exactly told me the very same thing my father did a year ago about digital josticks and springs.The center of the joystick isn't connected to the trim wheel as it should be.

 

Thanks SharpeXB

Edited December 15, 2015 by indiaciki

[SharpeXB]

you exactly told me the very same thing my father did a year ago about digital josticks and springs.

 

Thanks SharpeXB

This is worth reading, it was posted here earlier but worth reading if anyone missed it. The best explanation from years ago in RoF

 

http://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/2564-about-wrong-elevator-position-and-pitch-sensitive/?p=22055

Edited December 15, 2015 by SharpeXB

[andyw248]

To counter the 'extreme wobbling Fw190' vid, have a look at this by a well known 'ace'

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L0IndKxYVg

 

very little wobbling, or issues with tracking a target, watch to the end or skip to the action (6 mins +)

 

how can both videos be right 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

this is my experience with BoS

 

Same here - the well known ace flies with a steady hand, also he keeps his ball and turn-and-slip indicator nicely centered, instead of letting them move around erratically like the other pilot did...

Edited December 15, 2015 by andyw248

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

And here it goes steaming full speed ahead off track

 

You can play with controll settings all day long and not fix the issue itself. Same accounts for physical increase of sensetivity, ie stick extension or harder springs. It disadvantages you in everything than small steering inputs as well.

 

Anyway, what has this to do with FMs? Oh yes, nothing.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Same here - the well known ace flies with a steady hand, also he keeps his ball and turn-and-slip indicator nicely centered, instead of letting them move around erratically like the other pilot did...

This time 1000000000000

 

 

Solution = improve flying technique and/or set curves

Edited December 15, 2015 by [TBC]AeroACE

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Same here - the well known ace flies with a steady hand, also he keeps his ball and turn-and-slip indicator nicely centered, instead of letting them move around erratically like the other pilot did...

 

+1

 

This is also my experience with the 190. (when I not mess things up !)

 

The other video is just showing poor piloting skills and jerky movements on the stick (on purpose ?). Not a proof at all.

 

I agree that wobbling in BoS is more pronounced that what we can experience IRL in our light aircrafts, but as I said in the beginning of the thread, Unstable planes, tiny rudders, big torque engines and heavy wing load might explain some of it.

 

 

 

SORRY FOR THE CAPS - KEYBOARD IS BROKEN - SINCE I STILL DO NOT REALLY GET THE PROBLEM I JUST ASKED MY FATHER ABOUT PITCH INSTABILITY OF THE SOKO 522 A 600 HP TRAINER HE FLEW:SOME MINUTES AGO:

 

Hey indiaciki, would it be possible to bring your father onto the computer and let him play for an hour or so with BoS and ask him about his feedback about how it feels compared to his trainer ?

 

EDIT : NVM I saw your other post on the poll

Edited December 15, 2015 by F/JG300_Gruber

[Dakpilot]

And here it goes steaming full speed ahead off track

 

You can play with controll settings all day long and not fix the issue itself. Same accounts for physical increase of sensetivity, ie stick extension or harder springs. It disadvantages you in everything than small steering inputs as well.

 

Anyway, what has this to do with FMs? Oh yes, nothing.

 

I would also say the other wobbling FW190 vid was fairly inaccurate as an example of this particular FM anomaly (which i agree could do with some tuning) and more to do with inputs, if it was left  un countered as an example of how BoS flies this would not be accurate

 

What BoS does do is punish you more for being in uncordinated flight (ball not centered) and out of trim, compared to older (on rails) sims and this IMHO is a not a bad thing 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited December 15, 2015 by Dakpilot

[GP*]

That 190 video was really hard to watch.

 

Whatever wobbling I'm referring to, it was extremely aggravated in that video by some ham-fisted maneuvering. No insult is meant to the pilot; I've found myself there too. But we have to call a spade a spade to maintain any credibility with this claim.

 

Anyway, the game is still enjoyable regardless. I honestly only find the 109F4 to be so out of whack that I don't enjoy flying it. The 190, and just about everything else, is perfectly pleasant, even if the underlying causes of this issue are still there (just my opinion).

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Ball position has nothing to do with jerky pitch back reactions as far as I can judge it.

 

The sim shouldn't artifically "punish" pilots just like they shouldn't be artifically priviledged - it should be an authentic representation of reality to create an immersive feel of flight.

 

Nobody argues about skill. That's not even related to FMs. What worries me is not lacking skill to keep the plane stable, which I'm indeed capeable to, but that aircrafts in BoS show this effect in the first place. Infact I just noticed it being so intense after opening this topic and performing tests because ingame I automaticly corrected for jerky nose movements without thinking about it.

[Brano]

Authentic representation of reality? I guess building time machine,set it for 1942 and enlist into LW/VVS would do the trick.This is computer game

[Guest deleted@50488]

It's a lost cause, I believe...

 

I'll keep my point - it's wrong the way it is, should be addressed in future updates in a way that at least allows users to fine tune independent fine-tuning settings for their controllers, depending on aircraft model, like in RoF, although I never used it in RoF... and although I don't think this is the ideal solution...

 

A flight simulator representing a given aircraft type should, as far as it is possible within the limitations of the hardware used by the great majority of it's users, reproduce some of the most important characteristics of a given aircraft, namely stability in pitch, roll and yaw - which are really important features specially for a combat aircraft without a sophisticated SAS like those used on modern fighters.

Edited December 15, 2015 by JCOMM

[Picchio]

Authentic representation of reality? I guess building time machine,set it for 1942 and enlist into LW/VVS would do the trick.This is computer game

 

Dear Brano, let's go back and decide if we want to design an apartment building or a doll-house, while still assuming we already perfectly master the meaning of both. Your kind of statement denies any progress made in the discussion.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Picchio

[dburne]

Did anybody experience wobble in ROF ? I had an issue with the SE5 - coulnd't get her out of a spin until I changed curves  (trim down as neutral). might be the same thing. here's a video after altering pitch curves. 

 

 

 

I myself did not, at least not in regards to the y axis wobbling type effect.

[Dakpilot]

I myself did not, at least not in regards to the y axis wobbling type effect.

 

With regards to BoS which patch version of the game are you basing your assessment of wobbling, while still present it is very much changed since early access with FM updates

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Sparviero_ITA]

The A-10C in DCS will "wobble" or rebound back to trimmed when you release the stick while pitching up and down, in the same manner as BoS. With and without the SAS engaged, obviously the effect is more pronounced with it off. And the rudder axis will wobble pretty good too.

That plane has about the best FM ever put into a PC sim.

 

But that's not what we are testing here, obviously the pilot can eliminate the instability by just controlling the plane

 

 

 

I dont know what you talking about my friend, but if you want compare the "wobble effect" in A-10 to  BoS...i think you are joking!

There isn't that pronounced wobble effect in DCS...even whit BF 109 K.

 

You are talking about two games whit different concept about....fly.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Ltn_F_Baracca

[dburne]

 

I dont know what you talking about my friend, but if you want compare the "wobble effect" in A-10 to  BoS...i think you are joking!

There isn't that pronounced wobble effect in DCS...even whit BF 109 K.

 

 

 

Agree, I do not see the same type of effect in DCS in any of the modules I fly, including the A-10C.

Edited December 15, 2015 by dburne

[Brano]

Dear Brano, let's go back and decide if we want to design an apartment building or a doll-house, while still assuming we already perfectly master the meaning of both. Your kind of statement denies any progress made in the discussion.

I see no progress in discussion based on gut feelings and utube videos.That will hardly change the minds of devs.

[Guest deleted@50488]

I think the minds of the devs are probably seeking for the best way to tune down this effect... After all, they're not asleep, and they've been actively updating the sim among the various updates, ironing problems and limitations, introducing new features.

 

I honestly can't believe that for instance Han, who uses the sim himself and even records those excellent aerobatic videos, doesn't feel these particular "rubber band" feel must be a bit out of sync with reality....

 

Then they also have their RW pilot info sources, and if they ask their Yak-55 pilot, or any of their consultants, or simply those among the team who happen to old a pilot license, they will for sure get feedback regarding this effect...

 

Formulas ? Charts ? Measures ?  I don't think that's necessary in this particular case, as much as if we noted a given airplane had it's prop rotating CCW when the real thing was CW, pointing out that inconsistency wouldn't require aerodynamics background to support our claim....

 

But Brano, I agree the progress is now residual, unless some real fw190 or Bf109 pilot recorded a live video of a flight where the same control inputs during a real flight, and posted it here... 

Edited December 15, 2015 by JCOMM

[Sparviero_ITA]

I see no progress in discussion based on gut feelings and utube videos.That will hardly change the minds of devs.

 

There is a way where you think that the developers can change them minds?

We are talking about FM, and any time that we talk about it, there is the untouchable archive data historic,where is not possible compare whit something else.

If that was not enoughus, there is always some user that come here debuting with expressions like:

 

....this game it's the best SIM about WW II!

 

How can we be credible if there is no consistency even among us?...Como on!

Edited December 15, 2015 by Ltn_F_Baracca

[SharpeXB]

I dont know what you talking about my friend, but if you want compare the "wobble effect" in A-10 to  BoS...i think you are joking!

There isn't that pronounced wobble effect in DCS...even whit BF 109 K.

 

 

You are talking about two games whit different concept about....fly.

 

Since there hasn't been a real definition of what "rubber banding" or "wobbling" exactly is here then it's hard to explain.

 

So here's my definition as much as I can tell from the discussion:

Rubber Banding: The tendency for an untrimmed plane to return to its trimmed attitude when pressure on the controls is released. Exacerbated by the fact then when you say "center" or "release" the controls on a PC joystick you are not returning it to the no-force state of real aircraft controls, merely returning them to their spring center.

 

Does the A-10C in DCS do this. Yes. First trim to level flight. Then without changing the throttle position put the plane into an untrimmed dive. By untrimmed I mean you're still applying force to the stick to maintain the dive angle or keep the pipper on a target. While keeping that pressure on the stick, suddenly release it. Now your pipper will no longer be on the target but will rebound back up as your plane seeks it's trimmed state. Now apply the right rudder, move the nose over and while keeping pressure on the rudder, release it. What happens, does the nose stay exactly where you pointed it? No. Since the plane was flying uncoordinated sideways it seeks the trimmed state and the nose snaps back left, and not straight but with a bit of flutter and wobble.

 

And if you really want to experience wobbling in the A-10, just try keeping it on station with the tanker in Air to Air Refueling. The plane will bounce all over the sky like a bronco. But that's not the plane. That's you. After weeks of practice the wobbling will magically disappear. Practice plays a huge role in eliminating this behavior, more than stick curves.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Fine Sharp, less your use of the "untrimmed" word.

 

An aircraft is always trimmed for a given AoA, with power on a powered aircraft playing also it's role... If it is forced to fly away from that state, it is still trimmed and will try to return to the initial state when brought to a state from where it can recover in time, provided it has positive stability characteristics...

Edited December 15, 2015 by JCOMM

[Sparviero_ITA]

Since there hasn't been a real definition of what "rubber banding" or "wobbling" exactly is here then it's hard to explain.

 

So here's my definition as much as I can tell from the discussion:

Rubber Banding: The tendency for an untrimmed plane to return to its trimmed attitude when pressure on the controls is released. Exacerbated by the fact then when you say "center" or "release" the controls on a PC joystick you are not returning it to the no-force state of real aircraft controls, merely returning them to their spring center.

 

Does the A-10C in DCS do this. Yes. First trim to level flight. Then without changing the throttle position put the plane into an untrimmed dive. By untrimmed I mean you're still applying force to the stick to maintain the dive angle or keep the pipper on a target. While keeping that pressure on the stick, suddenly release it. Now your pipper will no longer be on the target but will rebound back up as your plane seeks it's trimmed state. Now apply the right rudder, move the nose over and while keeping pressure on the rudder, release it. What happens, does the nose stay exactly where you pointed it? No. Since the plane was flying uncoordinated sideways it seeks the trimmed state and the nose snaps back left, and not straight but with a bit of flutter and wobble.

 

And if you really want to experience wobbling in the A-10, just try keeping it on station with the tanker in Air to Air Refueling. The plane will bounce all over the sky like a bronco. But that's not the plane. That's you. After weeks of practice the wobbling will magically disappear. Practice plays a huge role in eliminating this behavior, more than stick curves.

 

Yes ! You right,i must to learn again how fly in virtual world after 15 years experience in SIM,and 2 hours in real world,just because Studio 777 they have developed BoS !

 

If you think it....it's will be hard time for so many users SIM and not!

 

If you had told me that with a little patience, maybe, someday will be reviewed certain aspects of the FM....It would be much more appreciated!

 

But since this is a game, and not a medicine ordered by the doctor, nobody one is forcing anyone....right?

Edited December 15, 2015 by Ltn_F_Baracca

[SharpeXB]

An aircraft is always trimmed for a given AoA,

Right. But only if you actually trim it yourself.

If you're applying force to the controls to make the plane do something else like dive or aim at a target. By definition you aren't trimmed. Some states would be impossible to trim for like aiming or staying connected to a tanker. In those cases releasing the controls is not going to keep you on target.

[CaK_Rumcajs]

Right. But only if you actually trim it yourself.

If you're applying force to the controls to make the plane do something else like dive or aim at a target. By definition you aren't trimmed. Some states would be impossible to trim for like aiming or staying connected to a tanker. In those cases releasing the controls is not going to keep you on target.

That all is true. So how do you explain some BOS/M AC do not wobble and some do? OK I know they all wobble it's just a matter of amount and perception of what is acceptable/controllable wobbling and what is not. Some AC have extremely pronounced link between yaw and pitch and vice versa and some don't. The same goes for this wobbling tendency.

[dburne]

Right. But only if you actually trim it yourself.

If you're applying force to the controls to make the plane do something else like dive or aim at a target. By definition you aren't trimmed. Some states would be impossible to trim for like aiming or staying connected to a tanker. In those cases releasing the controls is not going to keep you on target.

 

I think you maybe have a different idea over what most that are experiencing in it are seeing.

[SharpeXB]

Yes ! You right,i must to learn again how fly in virtual world after 15 years experience in SIM,and 2 hours in real world,just because Studio 777 they have developed BoS.....the revolution SIM about Flight!

If you think it....it's will be hard time for so many users SIM and not!

Unfortunately we aren't talking about real flying here, we're talking about computer games. Games which have evolved substantially in that time period. So 15 years of playing older games with less sophisticated physics doesn't apparently help much. When playing a sport in the real world the game doesn't change its physics. Imagine a game that simulated kicking a soccer goal or riding a bicycle made in 1999. Where would those skills go today? So yeah it's a bunch of relearning and that's part of the problem. People are too used to older games with simple physics.

[dburne]

Yes ! You right,i must to learn again how fly in virtual world after 15 years experience in SIM,

 

I got ya by a few years, and apparently so do I ...

[SharpeXB]

I think you maybe have a different idea over what most that are experiencing in it are seeing.

I'm replying to what was stated here

 

 And, indeed, as you point out, it's certainly not to always blame the pilot skill or the controllers, although pilot patience can help - that's what I've been trying to use, patience remembering to return all my inputs to center at my own pace, don't letting go off the stick, but sometimes, in the heat of the dogfight, I forget about it :-)

[dburne]

I'm replying to what was stated here

 

 

That's ok I was replying to your comment.

[Dakpilot]

I think you maybe have a different idea over what most that are experiencing in it are seeing.

 

Maybe you missed my comment earlier, have you flown in BoS since early access?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Sokol1]

"Tale" from Russian forum - similar topic.

 

вот что я вам скажу други. у меня знакомый вирпил в Гермаии живет. у него дядька родной. бывший военный пилот,сейчас ретро занимается. и иногда на авиашоу летает на г6.  так вот знакомый мой попросил протестировать бзс, похож ли месс? ну дак вот,тот сразу сказал. месс в реале в полете все время наровит идти прямо и чуть в верх. И РЫСКАНЬЯ ТАКОГО НЕРЕАЛЬНОГО НА НЕМ НЕТ И БЫТЬ НЕ ДОЛЖНО. это его дословные слова были.  

 

To be fair, the Mig-3 "wobble" too.

 

https://youtu.be/t-zZIl5uHxU

Edited December 15, 2015 by Sokol1

[KoN_]

Examble wobbling FW190

 

Over sensitive curve settings or maybe spring-loaded joystick .

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

вот что я вам скажу други. у меня знакомый вирпил в Гермаии живет. у него дядька родной. бывший военный пилот,сейчас ретро занимается. и иногда на авиашоу летает на г6.  так вот знакомый мой попросил протестировать бзс, похож ли месс? ну дак вот,тот сразу сказал. месс в реале в полете все время наровит идти прямо и чуть в верх. И РЫСКАНЬЯ ТАКОГО НЕРЕАЛЬНОГО НА НЕМ НЕТ И БЫТЬ НЕ ДОЛЖНО. это его дословные слова были. 

 

Adding a quick and dirty translation for those who missed it:

 

Here's what I'll tell you, friends. I have an acquaintance, virtual pilot, who lives in Germany. He has an uncle there who is a former military pilot and now works with vintage [aviation], sometimes he flies a Bf-109G-6 on air shows. My friend asked him to test BoS and say if the Messer is like the real one. So he tested it and right away he said that the Messer in reality wants to always go straight and a little bit up, and this yaw is not there in reality and should not be in game. These were his literal words.

 

[indiaciki]

 

+1

 

This is also my experience with the 190. (when I not mess things up !)

 

The other video is just showing poor piloting skills and jerky movements on the stick (on purpose ?). Not a proof at all.

 

I agree that wobbling in BoS is more pronounced that what we can experience IRL in our light aircrafts, but as I said in the beginning of the thread, Unstable planes, tiny rudders, big torque engines and heavy wing load might explain some of it.

 

 

 

 

Hey indiaciki, would it be possible to bring your father onto the computer and let him play for an hour or so with BoS and ask him about his feedback about how it feels compared to his trainer ?

 

EDIT : NVM I saw your other post on the poll

 

I will as soon as I buy a new joystick. The thing is: his flying of RL GA and BOS and DCS WW2 fighters is totallly different. I was amazed watching him fly. Use of throttle is excessive. Constant movement. I even think he uses joystick only for ailerons and pitch is 40% joystick and 60% throttle. Joystick is never neutral and trimming is constant. verry little use of ruddder in flight. extreme use on TO and landing. I'll have to to record this (his use of throttle and joystick). It goes from very extreme to constant small adjustments. Very dynamic. His GA flying style is very differnent. He rarely toches the yoke at all. trimming and AP....some constant settings of throttle exept for landings. Pitch = power settings. He doesn't like sims at all except for IFR. Flew and landed bOS & DCS a couple of times and never bounced. He doesn't even look around just straight forward. orientation by compass only.

 

That's his field of view more or less:

Edited December 16, 2015 by indiaciki

[KoN_]

Gents fly the 109 and then fly Yak ..see the difference .

Simple . Wobble 109 , stable Yak .

Same joystick on desk , same rudder pedals and throttle , same curve settings .

Different FM. :biggrin:

Oh`  is this a FM thread or a Curve settings thread `

If half of you spent as much time flying  instead being in here talking about ` wobbly bits` the servers wouldn't be empty and i would see 70% of you , ......................on-line flying ...lol :rolleyes:

 

Oh and before some of you have a melt down , i am only joking here . PC world ...Baaa.......... Humbug

Edited December 16, 2015 by II./JG77_Con

[Sparviero_ITA]

........................ People are too used to older games with simple physics.

 

I dont think so!

 

They have introduced a flight system that is not correct, regardless if we wont compare in real and virtual flight,and this has nothing to do with physics.

 

This way from interpreting a flight model it's not a basis for a new generation of simulators of the future, but just a personal interpretation very subjective.

 

Test the new DCS 2.0 engine whit BF 109 or FW 190...for example!...It's not a easy fly,but there is a logic.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Ltn_F_Baracca

[indiaciki]

It might sound idiotic but since I trim my AC constantly  and never have my joystick on neutral they don't wobble. That's why I started this thread. I didn't know what wobbling was.

Edited December 16, 2015 by indiaciki

[andyw248]

 

 

I will as soon as I buy a new joystick. The thing is: his flying of RL GA and BOS and DCS WW2 fighters is totallly different. I was amazed watching him fly. Use of throttle is excessive. Constant movement. I even think he uses joystick only for ailerons and pitch is 40% joystick and 60% throttle. Joystick is never neutral and trimming is constant. verry little use of ruddder in flight. extreme use on TO and landing. I'll have to to record this (his use of throttle and joystick). It goes from very extreme to constant small adjustments. Very dynamic. His GA flying style is very differnent. He rarely toches the yoke at all. trimming and AP....some constant settings of throttle exept for landings. Pitch = power settings. He doesn't like sims at all except for IFR. Flew and landed bOS & DCS a couple of times and never bounced. He doesn't even look around just straight forward. orientation by compass only.

 

Thanks for sharing your observations! My guess is that his sim flying pattern is caused by the fact that he used to use sims for instrument practice where you focus on scanning the instruments. When you do this (in both the sim and RW) you are missing the visual clues that you have in visual conditions, plus the "seat of the pants". One way of flying steadily in BoS (or any sim) is to find a reference point, for example the long cowling of a single engine fighter, and use that reference to control the aircraft. The instruments are only meant to be scanned every once in a while, maybe every 10 seconds or so, in visual conditions.