What's the wobbling thing ?

[BraveSirRobin]

If you feel confident playing the "Devil's Advocate", pls continue via PMs because I have no interest further distracting this topic.

 

Are you a moderator?

[SharpeXB]

It's over sharp. This is a FM discussion.

I know enough about flight modeling to know that this discussion will never end. There's actually a sub-forum specifically set up here so people can go argue about this stuff till the end of eternity. The information presented here is really quite interesting, but you'll be disappointed if you expect the game to be constantly revised.

 

And we really could do without another internet meltdown over "rubber banding". One was enough.

Edited December 10, 2015 by SharpeXB

[dburne]

No it's not. Look at the aircrafts reaction when Penshoon pitches up. No "wobbling" whatsoever, it settles at the pulled AoA rockstable. That's pretty much what I can confirm from my expirience.

Sure, when pushing this effect occurs to a slight degree. That is not nearly as exegerated as in BoS though.

 

 

Very much agree Stab!

[EAF_51_FOX]

 

I know enough about flight modeling to know that this discussion will never end. There's actually a sub-forum specifically set up here so people can go argue about this stuff till the end of eternity. The information presented here is really quite interesting, but you'll be disappointed if you expect the game to be constantly revised.

 

And we really could do without another internet meltdown over "rubber banding". One was enough.

This forum is here for DISCUSSIONS about everything in the game:  if you don't agree you can not watch about it.

And remember also that DISCUSSIONS and CRITICISMS are the only things that can IMPROVE the develop of everything that involve your life.

Regards.

Edited December 10, 2015 by EAF_51Raptor

[indiaciki]

Small, quick test of pitch "rubberbanding". Basicly level flight with throttle set for constant cruise speed (324 km/h) and stab for level flight hands off (+31%). Very slight and calm movements in the beginning, those are more correction movements than real manouvering. If you watch closely you can still see the "pitch-back" effect after the nose comes to a stop.

https://youtu.be/mFdYiPm_v20

 

I never had that in a any plane. Ever.

[Dakpilot]

Very much agree Stab!

 

Have you flown in BoS since Oct 2014?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[indiaciki]

today the G - i dont fly it very often

 

 

you have to work the stick anyway all the time. Any change of pitch = trim (any plane RL or sim). I don't get the problem.

 

I really don't know how do you expect a ww2 fighter to fly. Could somebody explain, please?

Edited December 11, 2015 by indiaciki

[216th_Jordan]

Looks fine to me :S

[Guest deleted@50488]

Well, indiaciki, you cheated :-)

 

Of course if you keep holding the stick all of the time, instead of releasing it as we do in our experiments, the return will not be that due to the static margin but rather your return, at the pace you decide it to be...

 

To those who wonder why this is so important, is it really ?, I will just point out that it can be seen this way, but the worst aspect of this peculiarity in the FDM is that it affects aircraft stability in a way that I do not find consistent with the descriptions I read of the rw counterparts of these fighters. 

 

At higher AoAs, in the heat of a dogfight, while trying to aim at your opponent on an aircraft which was known to be a stable gun platform, and harmonious to fly ( like the E7 pretty much is in this simulator ) you start getting this wild oscillations.It just desn't feel right to me.

 

It also doesn't feel right because that's not what my RL flying experience tells me. These sort of oscillations, even if they look minor in our sim, would be unconfortable IRL. Of course probably not for a combat pilot, but certainly for me should I be flying the aircraft instead.

 

While BoS does a great job, actually one of the best I have ever experienced in any flight simulation game, in modeling the effects of atmospheric turbulence, and wind variation, and this certainly helps recreating more what we feel IRL while flying across unstable air masses, I think it needs fine tuning regarding the way this particular aspect of pitch stability is modeled. The arguments used based on our controllers not being up to the level of detail, aren't really valid for me, since I believe the sim must be designed and adapted for the pervailling consumer hardware... and in this particular case it is not even the case (it has nothing to do, for instance on using or not FFB, or having a shorter or longer stick...).

 

The other aspect that IMO BoS is not yet modeling acceptably is the absence of pre-stall buffeting, which should be IMO much more evident, at least on some of the fighters in it's fleet.  Instead, near CLmax we get increased wobbling effect instead.

 

Is this a show killer ?  Certainly not !  There are just way much more positive aspects in BoS flight and overall physics modeling to make even a picky simmer like me, who instead of spending my time learning CFM and training at the online servers, spends his time looking for peculiarities in the FDM, but since I like this sim so much, I really would like to see it converging into perfection :-)

 

Ah, and for those who might be tempted to think it's yet another "exploit" to make some aircraft superior to others, it's there on Axis and Allies. Yesterday I used online mostly the LagG3, and it is even more prone to this wobbling than the G2 !

Edited December 11, 2015 by JCOMM

[=LD=Penshoon]

This was a good vintage film on stability:

 

Phugoid in g2, after I pitch back I let go of the stick and use only rudder to keep wings level. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by =LD=Penshoon

[Guest deleted@50488]

Yep, I had posted a link to the first youtube somewhere above in this thread or at the Poll, I don't recall exactly where...

 

And yes, phugoids are certainly very plausibly modeled in BoS - I really like it.

 

I just don't see neutral pitch stability in the P40E for positive pitch perturbations, and I believe that just like it's famous successor the p51, it exhibited this characteristic, but again, not absolutely sure about it!

[216th_Jordan]

I'm just saying that from a mechanical way of thinking this 'wobble' makes sense as you tail is pushing the aircraft down, inducing a momentum that airflow counters. so when you release, however sudden or not, it should move back, maybe in real life there are many more damping factors or the perception is not a obvious as in a flight sim.

 

or maybe I still dont get it?

 

there is a stick movement after you release it, is that planned? or could that be your 'wobble'? would that maybe be a result of modelled turbulence around the elevator?

Edited December 11, 2015 by Jordan

[Guest deleted@50488]

Yes Jordan, the pitch down after you let go of the stick ( or the pitch up if you pushed it ) makes all sense on an aircraft with positive pitch stability, the only "problem" we're complaining about being the pace at which that initial return happens - too fast and creating an unwanted (IMO) oscillation.

 

 

Use of exponential curves for the pitch and yaw axis can soften the effect for "small" pitch and yaw inputs, and that's what I am using right now, but as you need to input higher stick deflection, since the rate of deflection increases exponentially, the effect will end up feeling even more evident :-/

 

Yesterday I had to fight against a good Bf109 G2 opponent using my LagG3, and to fight also against that setting I now have for the pitch - decreased it from 100% to 70 % as suggested by some users, but still problematic as I need to deflect the stick during tight turns or escape maneuvers.

Edited December 11, 2015 by JCOMM

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I'm just saying that from a mechanical way of thinking this 'wobble' makes sense as you tail is pushing the aircraft down, inducing a momentum that airflow counters. so when you release, however sudden or not, it should move back, maybe in real life there are many more damping factors or the perception is not a obvious as in a flight sim.

 

or maybe I still dont get it?

 

there is a stick movement after you release it, is that planned? or could that be your 'wobble'? would that maybe be a result of modelled turbulence around the elevator?

Don't want to pretent I know better what physical circumstances are causing this behaviour but there are more factors to account for in reality for sure. If you pitch up you increase your pitch angle of the wing, which increases lift. Your center of lift gets shifted, so does your CoM. If you fly a powered aircraft the engine has a upward facing thrust vector, means it also induces a positvie momentum. Against that we have the stab's lift producing a counter momentum and of course gravity, which as result of speed loss and decreasing lift will push the nose down over time.

 

This even gets moer complicated when accounting for winds, turbulences and thermals. It's a real bunch of physical factors working with and against each other, each at a different rate.

 

However, flying  unpowered aircrafts mainly in reality I can certainly say I have never expirienced any of them to "snap back" after harsh centering momvements like it is simulated ingame. And trust me, we also have to throw our planes around to catch those tiny thermals or to fly some aerobatics

 

Sure, this may not have much relevance when talking about 3t combat aircraft build 70 years ago and I don't even claim full credebility for it. Still my expirience clearly disagrees with the observations we make ingame.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[wtornado]

planes fly in air. If anybody has flown a plane or flown in any plane knows that they "wobble". Even trains do. 

 

Spitfire MK IX's do not wobble they gracefully fly through the air

[SharpeXB]

The other aspect that IMO BoS is not yet modeling acceptably is the absence of pre-stall buffeting,

This effect is definitely in BoS. You can see the buffet and even hear it in the game. Just turn tighter and tighter and lose airspeed and your plane will shake and you'll hear the wind noise. It's very clear.

 

At higher AoAs, in the heat of a dogfight, while trying to aim at your opponent on an aircraft which was known to be a stable gun platform, and harmonious to fly ( like the E7 pretty much is in this simulator ) you start getting this wild oscillations.It just desn't feel right to me.

What is your airspeed when this is happening? It's possible you are just flying too slow in the high AoA.

 

This video isn't mine, just from a search on YouTube. Is what you experience more or less stable than this?

http://youtu.be/qNZyqhpRoSU

 

That example just seems average to me, not excessively good or bad.

Edited December 11, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@50488]

The E7 is, as I posted before, probably the most stable of the Bf109's, and actually of all of the fighters, Axis or Allies, I tried in BoS. A charm to fly indeed - my preferred together with the LagG3 :-)

 

But no big deal for me this wobbling - I can live with it ...  Just have to adapt to it's characteristics, and hold the stick all of the time, never getting it go too fast from the deflections I make... It works acceptably this way.

[EAF_51_FOX]

.....

 

The other aspect that IMO BoS is not yet modeling acceptably is the absence of pre-stall buffeting, which should be IMO much more evident, at least on some of the fighters in it's fleet.  Instead, near CLmax we get increased wobbling effect instead.    ......

 

 

 

This is rilevant!  and I agree 100%.

would be better to have pre-stall "shake" as in old IL2.. and also a more FF effect reproduced during pitch control of plane as now FFB stick (MS FF owner) is quite like no have forces even in sharp manouvers!

[SharpeXB]

This is rilevant! and I agree 100%.

would be better to have pre-stall "shake" as in old IL2..

Once again. There is actually a pre-stall shake in this game. I don't know how it compares with Old IL-2 but it's there.

[216th_Jordan]

I feel the pre stall shake really intense..

Its very loud and the plane shakes like mad...

[GP*]

I too think the pre-stall buffet is pretty well done in game.

 

I'm going to try to post a video this weekend (wife permitting) of some of the "wobbling" as I see it.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Prefontaine

[EAF_51_FOX]

I think you don't have a MSFF2 Microsoft joystick then? If sowill be VERY strange You have quite opposite feedback in stall plane conditions

I too think the pre-stall buffet is pretty well done in game.

 

I'm going to try to post a video this weekend (wife permitting) of some of the "wobbling" as I see it.

 

 

I feel the pre stall shake really intense..
Its very loud and the plane shakes like mad...

 

 

I think you don't have a MSFF2 Microsoft joystick then? If sowill be VERY strange You have quite opposite feedback in stall plane conditions.

[GP*]

I think you don't have a MSFF2 Microsoft joystick then? If sowill be VERY strange You have quite opposite feedback in stall plane conditions

 

 

 

 

I think you don't have a MSFF2 Microsoft joystick then? If sowill be VERY strange You have quite opposite feedback in stall plane conditions.

 

I have both a MSFFB2 and a Warthog.

 

If you feel the lack of buffet prior to stall is inadequate with regard to FFB, that's more of a FFB problem, not a FM problem. While I agree that FFB could use some more tuning, it's more of a second-order problem.

 

I understand people having varying opinions of whether or not the stalls are "intense" enough, but all the correct indications of a stall are present. Pre-stall buffet increases up to the critical AoA, and then decreases as the nose stops tracking. If the engine is at the higher range of its power output, you'll typically see appropriate torque and prop effects during the stall. If power off, it's much more benign.

 

While some aircraft had nastier stall tendencies historically (Fw-190 as an example for a plane that's present in our sim), not all should exhibit the banana-peel effect that is overdone in previous sims.

[andyw248]

Regarding the "rubberbanding": Inspired by this interesting discussion I tried it when I flew this morning. Couple of observations:

 

(1) In the aircraft that I flew (a V-Tail Bonanza), after pulling/pushing the yoke it did not move back to the trimmed airspeed by itself. I had to move it back, otherwise it would stay in its pulled/pushed position. Now the Bonanza is known for being "light on the elevator"; I don't know how light or heavy the various WWII aircraft were on the stick.

 

(2) The actual rubberbanding looks more like in Penshoon's video:

Here is the p51, trying to do the deflections as quick as possible to exaggerate the effect.

In other words, when pulling the yoke and then pushing it back to approximately the trimmed position the aircraft would just keep its attitude. It would not settle back a few degrees as it did in 5tuka's video:

Small, quick test of pitch "rubberbanding". Basicly level flight with throttle set for constant cruise speed (324 km/h) and stab for level flight hands off (+31%). Very slight and calm movements in the beginning, those are more correction movements than real manouvering. If you watch closely you can still see the "pitch-back" effect after the nose comes to a stop.

https://youtu.be/mFdYiPm_v20

 

(3) Phugoids were exactly the same as in Penshoon's other video: 

Phugoid in g2, after I pitch back I let go of the stick and use only rudder to keep wings level. 

 

(4) My observations were made at about 140mph / 225kph in a V-Tail Bonanza, a low-wing airplane with a 285hp engine, at a weight of approximately 3,000lbs / 1,400kg, in clean configuration (gear and flaps up).

 

(5) A video from my test can be seen at:

 

 

Edited December 12, 2015 by andyw248

[Guest deleted@50488]

Thx Andy, and sorry for having miusenderstood your previous posts... After all you were actually after it :-)

 

And thx for having run the test!!!

 

I believe the V35 has pisitive pitch stability characteristrics, but you probably would have to wait longer for the phugoids will most probably have very long period even at start. 

[KoN_]

Take a look at the 109 . Taxi too take off  with some fine manoeuvres thrown in . To me i see no rubber banding or the wobbling effect on axis ,  looks like a pretty stable flight .

 

Edited December 12, 2015 by II./JG77_Con

[wtornado]

I think you don't have a MSFF2 Microsoft joystick then? If sowill be VERY strange You have quite opposite feedback in stall plane conditions

 

 

 

 

I think you don't have a MSFF2 Microsoft joystick then? If sowill be VERY strange You have quite opposite feedback in stall plane conditions.

Ever since Micro$oft stopped supporting the MSFF2 stick it never worked right

ingame even with 3rd party programs since XP.

 

Not enough buttons on it either for modern full real gaming.

 

My 30$ Logitech 3D pro has 12 and it still is not enough.

 

I don't use my MSFF2 anymore it is shelfed.

[SharpeXB]

Take a look at the 109 . Taxi too take off with some fine manoeuvres thrown in . To me i see no rubber banding or the wobbling effect on axis , looks like a pretty stable flight

You don't know what the pilot in that video is doing wth the controls. Pretty obvious that an expert like that can fly well.

 

(5) A video from my test can be seen at:

That's the way to bring some real data to a FM discussion. S! Edited December 12, 2015 by SharpeXB

[CaK_Rumcajs]

You don't know what the pilot in that video is doing wth the controls. Pretty obvious that an expert like that can fly well.

The only obvious thing I saw in that video was "no wobbling". Do not try to be too creative please.

[smink1701]

The pitch controls have always been overly sensitive and "twitchy" in ROF and they are in BOS too.

[dburne]

The pitch controls have always been overly sensitive and "twitchy" in ROF and they are in BOS too.

 

Agreed, but I found it to be a little more exaggerated in BOS versus ROF...

[andyw248]

Agreed, but I found it to be a little more exaggerated in BOS versus ROF...

 

The pitch controls have always been overly sensitive and "twitchy" in ROF and they are in BOS too.

 

One thing you can see from my little test video above is that pitch changes at cruise speed require only minor yoke movements. Even with those minor movements it doesn't feel twitchy in a real airplane because there is always some load on the yoke (from the airstream on the elevator), even if an aircraft is considered "light on the elevator" like the Bonanza. Because of that aerodynamic load, even small inputs still feel very precise.

 

Not so in a sim with a joystick that does not have that kind of load on it...

[SharpeXB]

The A-10C in DCS will "wobble" or rebound back to trimmed when you release the stick while pitching up and down, in the same manner as BoS. With and without the SAS engaged, obviously the effect is more pronounced with it off. And the rudder axis will wobble pretty good too.

That plane has about the best FM ever put into a PC sim.

The only obvious thing I saw in that video was "no wobbling". Do not try to be too creative please.

 

But that's not what we are testing here, obviously the pilot can eliminate the instability by just controlling the plane

[dburne]

The A-10C in DCS will "wobble" or rebound back to trimmed when you release the stick while pitching up and down, in the same manner as BoS. With and without the SAS engaged, obviously the effect is more pronounced with it off. And the rudder axis will wobble pretty good too.

That plane has about the best FM ever put into a PC sim.

 

I do not find the A-10C to wobble like BOS does at all.

[SharpeXB]

I do not find the A-10C to wobble like BOS does at all.

Exactly the same, no. But it rebounds back. Like if you were pitching the nose down to put the reticle on a target and then let go, the plane will rebound back upward, it won't stay fixed on the target. If you aren't trimmed in the dive then by definition your plane is going to rebound back to it's trimmed state.

 

I'm not even sure what some of you expect. Do you expect that if you did this that your gun sight would literally not move from the target, even though you release the force on the stick. That's impossible. Maybe that's what happens in Train Simulator, you know, the one with the rails ;-)

Edited December 12, 2015 by SharpeXB

[dburne]

Not even close.

[dburne]

 

 

I'm not even sure what some of you expect. Do you expect that if you did this that your gun sight would literally not move from the target, even though you release the force on the stick. That's impossible. Maybe that's what happens in Train Simulator, you know, the one with the rails ;-)

 

Nice edit and slag.

Maybe some are just providing feedback from their observations and experience. Not sure what trains have to do with anything, but then I was not sure why you are bringing a competing product into the mix either. But whatever.

Edited December 12, 2015 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

Not even close.

But the same effect is there. So we are discussing the degree of difference which is pretty slight. And although the Bonanza test above is excellent, to be exactly relevant it would have to be done in one of these same planes at the same airspeed. The Bonanza example is a much more stable plane, at a slower speed, with much more gradual inputs. The DCS A-10 example is done at twice the speed and several Gs in the pull.

I was not sure why you are bringing a competing product into the mix either. But whatever.

 

someone else already started with DCS so I'll oblige

[dburne]

But the same effect is there.

 

 

No, not even close.

You do realize of course, we are talking about personal observations here?

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello all,

 

We probably shouldn't be using civilian aircraft for comparison because they are designed with stability (aerobatic aircraft notwithstanding) in mind whereas fighters need some inherent instability in order to increase maneuverability. In the old IL2 series, the 109 became quite an unstable gun platform at low speed and that it happens now in BoS should not be much of a surprise (at least to me it isn't). 

 

Not using the actual controls for the particular aircraft likely has some effect as well. 

 

Also, BoS/BoM is the first cfs I have played that actually discourages hamfisted flying; you cant't just throw the controls around at any speed and/or attitude like you can in earlier sims, the kites will bite back! 

 

Good hunting,

=CFC=Conky

Edited December 12, 2015 by CFC_Conky