More changes in DM & How it works?

[=81FG=HellKitten]

For me BoS's DM seems to be bit wonky.

Sometimes it feels right and sometimes it feels very unreasonable.

 

This video was taken early this year, when i just started BoS.
I argued in the forum that the DM seems very wrong but i ended up concluding that it was due to my incompetent skill & aiming

 

This video was taken yesterday. Im sure i damaged that Lagg-3 a lot in the first attack, but it did not lose anything (aileron, flaps, rudder etc..).
Therefore i had to go down and put more 20mm into that poor thing.

 

One of my friend took this vid few months ago, and we believe that La-5 is probably the tankiest Soviet fighter in the game untill today since there was no huge changes in FM and DM so far.

Even in this video, that plane doesnt lose anything after all that damge. All ailerons, flaps and rudder are intact.
 

 

Probably because im more used to seeing simpler DM from European Air War and IL-2 1946, BoS's DM is overally unsatisfying for me.

Im not just sure whether if Russian planes are just too tanky or my 20mm is just cr*ppy.

Edited November 21, 2015 by =81FG=HellKitten

[Fern]

I agree. I think the Lagg-3 is suppose to be tanky.

 

I can fly around in a Yak with engine damage all day long (5 min maybe longer) with full throttle. Then maybe it will start to overheat. While other planes its another story.

[johncage]

the more complex the damage modeling, the more chances are for there to be many factors allowing the plane to survive. the opposite is true as well. need to see if there's a trend and where adjustments might need to be made or if there's a bug even,

[Finkeren]

The DM is fine IMHO (actually it's propably the best of any flight sim I've seen) precisely because it's unpredictable.

 

If you are really unlucky and don't hit anything vital, you can empty your ammo supply into an opponent and he'll keep flying. On another occassion a single hit might take him down if it lands in the right place.

 

It's the same with engine damage. There are at least a handful of different types:

 

There's overheating damage, which results from having your radiator punctured and drained or simply from mishandling the engine.

 

There's the oil leak (very noticeable since it smears your windscreen with oil) damage is fatal within minutes of oil pressure dropping below minimum.

 

Them there's the mechanic damage that gets worse the longer the engine keeps running, eventually killing the engine.

 

There's engine fire, either oil fire or fuel line fire, which will cumulative damage the engine and posibly kill the pilot, but which can be put out by diving fast.

 

There's the niggling damage, maybe a blown cylinder, which will trail smoke and lower engine power, but will not kill the engine even after running it for a long time.

 

And that's just the engine. There are loads and loads of other systems that might be individually damaged: Fuel lines, fuel tanks, internal structure, cockpit, oxygen supply, control surfaces etc. right down to the landing gear doors and the rods that control the trim tabs.

 

I think this level of detail and unpredictability is great.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Finkeren

[Potenz]

you don't know what's happening in the other cockpit, with a friend we did some test

i was in a 109 with empty mg's only cannon, and the results were surprising.

from my perspective 2-3 fired shells did no damage to him, but from his perspective

got so much damage that he couldn't barely control the planes 4-6 fired shells and he was 

going down with all kind of damage. we did this test 8 or 10 times in a row 

 

So DM in BoS is really well made. best i ever experienced.

Edited November 21, 2015 by [AoA]Potenz

[YSoMadTovarisch]

The DM is generally very good, not for the BMW 801 engine thought, as it's much less durable than other inline engines in the game, 1 hit and a few minutes later you're down while I've often flown back to base for a good 10-15 minutes without any sign of the engine dying after receiving a few good engine hit in my BF 109.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Yesterday night my LagG3 was damaged to death 3 times in a row... The artists were an E3, an F4 and an A3...  The main actor - yours truly... - should never have started IL-2 BoS at 3 o'clock instead of going directly to bed after a 14 hr work shift .... But IL-2, being the most immersive flightsim I EVER used, has this dangerous attraction to it...

 

I left the server soon after... almost fell asleep flying the thing...  :-)

[F/JG300_Gruber]

you don't know what's happening in the other cockpit, with a friend we did some test

i was in a 109 with empty mg's only cannon, and the results were surprising.

from my perspective 2-3 fired shells did no damage to him, but from his perspective

got so much damage that he couldn't barely control the planes 4-6 fired shells and he was 

going down with all kind of damage. we did this test 8 or 10 times in a row 

 

So DM in BoS is really well made. best i ever experienced.

 

That perspective thing says it all. 

I think what also may mislead people is the size of the smoke puffs from 20mm hits, it looks more like a hand grenade explosion than a shell hit, that's probably why people expect the other plane to transform into a cloud of debris instead of continue flying. But damage wise I never had to complain about the DM. System failures piles up quickly enough from target point of view 

[Siipiorava]

Only problem I have with the DM is the low chance of fires despite all the incendiary ammunition the 8mm machine guns carry and the constant piercing of fuel tanks indicated by the fuel trails. Only guns that make fires consistently are the Russian 20mm and 23mm cannons.

[KoN_]

The DM is generally very good, not for the BMW 801 engine thought, as it's much less durable than other inline engines in the game, 1 hit and a few minutes later you're down while I've often flown back to base for a good 10-15 minutes without any sign of the engine dying after receiving a few good engine hit in my BF 109.

+1

[Livai]

Good to compare the changes to Damage Model that was made. Here before patch 1.009

 

Watch from 0:00 to 0:15

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7I83-yqZw

[Potenz]

That perspective thing says it all. 

I think what also may mislead people is the size of the smoke puffs from 20mm hits, it looks more like a hand grenade explosion than a shell hit, that's probably why people expect the other plane to transform into a cloud of debris instead of continue flying. But damage wise I never had to complain about the DM. System failures piles up quickly enough from target point of view 

There are some guncam videos on youtube of 109, 190 and 110 atacking b-17s and the smoke puff looks like the one in BoS

[Fern]

That perspective thing says it all. 

I think what also may mislead people is the size of the smoke puffs from 20mm hits, it looks more like a hand grenade explosion than a shell hit, that's probably why people expect the other plane to transform into a cloud of debris instead of continue flying. But damage wise I never had to complain about the DM. System failures piles up quickly enough from target point of view 

 

Russian planes were made of wood, especially the Lagg. They didnt have much armor. You would think they would go down in flames more often as a result of the explosive rounds...

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

To keep it simple, from Wikipedia:

 

('Delta-timber' is) a "a wood-plastic composite composed of very thin, 0.35 to 0.55 mm, wood veneer and phenol formaldehyde resin, baked at high temperature and pressure".

 

And from a post Brano did which I found through Google by accident - coincidentally, it was HellKitten's earlier thread he referenced to.

 

Delta drevesina=birch veneers, impregnated with phenolic resin, layered in a mould and formed under pressure at 150degC.Fireproof material with strenght simmilar to its metallic counterparts used in aviation industry.

 

Despite being made of wood, the LaGG-3 had great fire-proof capacity and damage absorption capability. Some claim its durability is what kept the project alive despite initial setbacks until Lavochkin managed to turn into the La-5 and the 66 series variants. Either way, the LaGG-3's bad rep (or the Yak-1's good rep, you choose) has a bit to do with Aleksandr Yakovlev's position on the top of the government heading Soviet aircraft production back in the day. While the MiG-3, LaGG-3 and Yak-1 all had a more or less equal share of success and setbacks, the Yak-1 'magically' came out with a clean rep, buried the MiG-3 and all its related projects, effectively put an end to poor Polikarpov's career in aircraft design despite some great aircraft being designed and tested, and came very close to pushing Lavochkin off the cliff too - this was going to happen, but was stopped thanks to Lavochkin and Gorbunov's hard working spirit. The LaGG-3 production lines were slated to be transitioned into Yak-1 and Yak-7 production, but the two worked hard on a LaGG-3 airframe in the middle of winter by a tiny hut in an airfield and by adding a Su-2 nose section to the LaGG-3 and spending many months balancing the Frankenlavochka out, they took it to the air and - surprise, surprise - exceeded the Yak-7's capabilities in a head-to-head test.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Fern]

I was thinking more along the lines of busting through the wood and the explosive round lighting off the fuel.

[Dakpilot]

Same effect on Luftwaffe A/C, I believe FW190 A3 did not have armoured fuel tanks,  in fact most soviet A/C had inert gas piped into the fuel tanks (exhaust gasses ithink) as fire prevention, you can even see it moddeled and visible on the IL-2 in game

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Finkeren]

I was thinking more along the lines of busting through the wood and the explosive round lighting off the fuel.

How would that be any different from a plane covered in thin aluminium-alloy plates? If anything the delta wood would be better at stopping incoming rounds.

 

The principle disadvantages of delta wood is that it's a lot heavier than duralumin and has a tendency to warp, if moisture gets into the sandwiched wood structure.

[von_Tom]

 

Im not just sure whether if Russian planes are just too tanky or my 20mm is just cr*ppy.

 

It seems to me as if the 20mm is a bit poor.  I get a good hit in and then usually have to watch as they recover and come right back.  Maybe it's just a bad patch but I do find I have to get so many rounds into someone it takes more time and then you're toast because it's taken so long.  For me I usually get hit once and that's it with things falling off

 

That's my experience anyway, and as you have to descend to find some action then you're in trouble anyway.

 

Anecdotally, in my experience, may be realistic may not etc etc.

 

von Tom

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Some anecdotal guncam footage, mostly western front. Towards the end you can see some La-5s - one shows up briefly, but another takes two clear cannon hits to the tail and still decisively initiates a sharp turn as if to say "nope, not sitting here". Some a/c remained controllable here for the short time they were on screen, some appeared to lose control, no final results were seen but it's worth noting that there were no wings and such being magically ripped off à la 1946. Hurricanes seem to be extremely flammable, also.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_aqJwHdMDK0

Edited November 22, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Livai]

I wonder where the difference between MG damage and Cannon damage is in this game. Lets say there is no difference?

[Finkeren]

I wonder where the difference between MG damage and Cannon damage is in this game. Lets say there is no difference?

The difference is basically quantitative. Cannon shells carry more energy and have a heavier explosive charge.

 

Why would they cause different types of damage?

[Fern]

DM is fine. I really dont care to argue about historical accuracy bullshit anymore.

 

Can you not survive a nose over anymore? Dont know if you ever could before. Cant remember.

[Willy__]

Can you not survive a nose over anymore? Dont know if you ever could before. Cant remember.

 

 

You could die/survive, but you had to be very fast to result in a pilot kill. I think the last patch introduced a bug where the noseover would always kill the pilot. But they are fixing for next patch, as you can see on the dev diary:

 

11. La-5 can be landed without landing gear.

12. I-16 can be landed without landing gear.

13. Fw-190 can be landed without landing gear.

14. Pilot won't always die after nose-over.

15. Yak-1 pneumatic flaps extension speed increased (~80° per second while stationary, less at high speeds) based on learning video for Yak-15 with the same flaps system.

16. IL-2 pneumatic flaps extension speed increased (~33° per second at 200...220 km/h speeds) based on restored IL-2 flight video.

Edited November 24, 2015 by istruba

[Y-29.Silky]

Oh my God dudes this is so confirmed. Back in the beta you saw people getting rekt from engaging their enemy at 300m because debris would fly off and hit their propeller. I tested this today in MP and hit an enemy 4 times with 20mm, NOTHING, fell off. Will post video when I wake up in the morning. 


My Point: Something is different in the DM's from the beta, to the recent update. Debris does not fly off as it should when being hit by 20mm. All you see is a mini black puff. 

 

 

This is wronk!

[Finkeren]

Oh my God dudes this is so confirmed. Back in the beta you saw people getting rekt from engaging their enemy at 300m because debris would fly off and hit their propeller. I tested this today in MP and hit an enemy 4 times with 20mm, NOTHING, fell off. Will post video when I wake up in the morning. 

 

 

My Point: Something is different in the DM's from the beta, to the recent update. Debris does not fly off as it should when being hit by 20mm. All you see is a mini black puff. 

 

 

This is wronk!

 

Lots and lots of things about the DM is different from the beta, mostly for the better.

 

Debris do fal from aircraft, but only when pieces are actually get shot off. If, for instance, a shell hits a landing gear door and blows it off, there will be a cloud of debris, same with control surfaces, wings etc. Normal hits that don't rip off pieces from the aircraft don't release random debris, and why would it? The automatic generation of debris, when you hit AC in other sims has always struck me as highly unrealistic and seems to be implemented mainly as a means to easily confirm hits visually.