Bf110 this week?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Isn't that a bit slow? The older C6 model should do around 560 max. The G2 somewhat less then 600. I would think that the E model is somewhere in between. But i could be wrong. 

 

Climb-rate is not great but comparable to the climb-rate of the P-40.

 

Grt Martijn

 

It probably is, I presume the data is either from a messed up aircraft or from the old C-4 Germany sold to the Soviet Union for testing back in 1940. While it is compared to the P-40, it will struggle on the vertical plane against the MiG-3 and the I-16, not to mention the BoS aircraft. A funny tidbit I found (not sure about the accuracy of it though) is that the Bf-110 climb and speed performances are closely matched by the unloaded Pe-2, so chasing them on the way home will be interesting for sure

 

Also, happy birthday Panzerbar!

Edited November 19, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Asgar]

Come on devs. Panzerbär has to get his birthday present!

[Trooper117]

Yes, it will be interesting to fly this aircraft... I have always loved the look of it.

 

When Eric Brown flew this aircraft he had nothing but praise for it. I'm looking forward to flying it to see if it matches up to his performance data  

[Trooper117]

The 110 in BoM...

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Trooper117

[Trooper117]

Other pics

 

 

 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Reading some of these comments I think there will be some big surprises in store when this is released

[Finkeren]

I think you're being too literal as regards the meaning of circle. If things were kept really rigid then yeah, I think it might well be a death sentence but if the formation was reasonably loose, and speed was kept at the upper end of the range with plenty of distance between the aircraft (both horizontally and vertically), then I think it might be quite a dangerous proposition. Dropping into the formation would be easy enough but climbing back up again might be a different story.

I don't think I'm being litteral. Obviously I don't think of the defensive circle as an actual circle where the 110s just buzz around like a merry-go-round.

 

However: No matter how loose the formation is, still doesn't change the fact, that it's a defensive maneuver that render the entire flight unable to act offensively or move to a different position. All an enemy has to do is not attack but wait above for the circle to break up, which will happen eventually.

Reading some of these comments I think there will be some big surprises in store when this is released

Such as?

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Such as?

 

It will be quite fast and work ok against the BOM VVS plane set in hit and run tactics using an altitude advantage.

 

Major Grabmann stated in tests he found his 110s to be as fast as the 109 Es they tested against (probably E3 or E4) (Bergstrom). These 110s have the same engine as the F2 so without bomb racks they are probably going to be able to out run the I-16 at least and maybe the P-40...not sure about the mig's low alt performance.

 

Bergstrom and Vasco have written a lot about the 110 and they both believe there are a lot of myths banded around about this aircraft and there was a very good debate about some of these 'myths' on aces high a few years back. It's well worth reading these books but we will have to see what 777 produce.

Edited November 19, 2015 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[Asgar]

do they do patches on fridays?

[LLv24_Zami]

do they do patches on fridays?

Not anymore. Usually tuesday or wednesday.

[Finkeren]

It will be quite fast and work ok against the BOM VVS plane set in hit and run tactics using an altitude advantage.

Hit and run tactics with an altitude advantage works for pretty much any plane with forward-firing guns.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Hit and run tactics with an altitude advantage works for pretty much any plane with forward-firing guns.

 

No kidding and being faster in a straight line also works for pretty much any plane with forward firing guns...I'm not seeing your point

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Underestimating the -110 is a surefire way to get killed. It doesn't mean it's invincible, but it can do everything acceptably well and a good 110 pilot will make short work of a careless one (particularly if the former is working in a pair).

 

If the old Il-2 is of any reference a big disadvantage the -110 has is size: you can see it really further out, so getting that element of surprise for a good bounce is tricky. Knowing where the enemy is coming from combined with the 110's inferior maneuverability makes it easier to dodge the first volley and then fight it in more even terms since it cannot really run. Another problem is if when setting up the altitude for a bounce the -110 meets MiG-3s flying co-alt

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Underestimating the -110 is a surefire way to get killed. It doesn't mean it's invincible, but it can do everything acceptably well and a good 110 pilot will make short work of a careless one (particularly if the former is working in a pair).

 

If the old Il-2 is of any reference a big disadvantage the -110 has is size: you can see it really further out, so getting that element of surprise for a good bounce is tricky. Knowing where the enemy is coming from combined with the 110's inferior maneuverability makes it easier to dodge the first volley and then fight it in more even terms since it cannot really run. Another problem is if when setting up the altitude for a bounce the -110 meets MiG-3s flying co-alt

 

Yep the mig could be a game changer from what we've got used to in BOS. It will be very interesting to see if the roles are reversed on the LW at high altitude. 

 

Teamwork is the key like you say

[Finkeren]

Some people were talking a lot about how to not underestimate the P-40 two months ago

[Asgar]

i like the P-40 and i think it can be very effective if used properly. 

[BraveSirRobin]

i like the P-40 and i think it can be very effective if used properly. 

 

As bait?

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Some people were talking a lot about how to not underestimate the P-40 two months ago

 

Is the P-40 faster than any of it's contemporary fighters in BOM?

 

Anyway if you are interested in what historians and the people they interviewed have to say why not read a book or two.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I think the P-40 is getting an unfair bad rep, it's a decent aircraft and the armament can disable most fighters with one short burst. In terms of speed I think it can run faster than the 109 Emil and the 110, and it can keep flying even after a severe beating.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I think the P-40 is getting an unfair bad rep, it's a decent aircraft and the armament can disable most fighters with one short burst. In terms of speed I think it can run faster than the 109 Emil and the 110, and it can keep flying even after a severe beating.

Nope, the E-7 is exactly the same in terms of speed. Can even go faster.

[Y-29.Silky]

Nope, the E-7 is exactly the same in terms of speed. Can even go faster.

 

An E-7 couldn't out run my P-40 yesterday

Lucas is right, the P-40 is getting an unfair bad rep. It seems only the German fanboys say it's crap. I take the P-40 up to 4000m and it's almost unstoppable; I can't count how many times I rolled to have a 109 go from my 6oc, directly into my gunsights, or dove on a 109 who then tried to out turn me.

 

Anyways back on topic,

 

What I can't wait for... Is diving on Pe-2's with my Bf-110

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

OK, well... It can, uh... Outrun the Stuka...! One with bombs. Maybe, I mean, with minimal fuel... I kid, I kid.

 

Silky, I've actually seen more people who fly both or VVS-only complain about it. It's not unusual though - most people are used to flying the Yak-1 which is an extremely light aircraft, give them a brick like the P-40 and say 'good luck with it' and you're bound to find some problems.

 

I fear for the Soviet bomber pilots with the -110 in sight, particularly the BoM ones which are less armoured than the BoS counterparts.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Fortis_Leader]

However: No matter how loose the formation is, still doesn't change the fact, that it's a defensive maneuver that render the entire flight unable to act offensively or move to a different position. All an enemy has to do is not attack but wait above for the circle to break up, which will happen eventually.

 

I can't claim to be even half an amateur expert, but I can put it like this: Who do you think will have to RTB first on account of fuel, the small fighter or the larger 110?

Edited November 19, 2015 by 1./ZG1_AnthonyP

[Finkeren]

I can't claim to be even half an amateur expert, but I can put it like this: Who do you think will have to RTB first on account of fuel, the small fighter or the larger 110?

Doesn't matter. The fact is, that a pair of fighters can bind a much larger force of 110s, which accomplish nothing while pinned down in the defensive circle.

 

What bothers me about the defensive circle is not so much what it is, but what people percieve it to be. Quite often I see people in discussions bring up the circle as though it was a viable offensive tactic to shoot down aircraft.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

As opposed to the Thach weave, which buried the Lufbery in the USN very quickly. The 110's decent offensive and defensive armament should make that a much more viable tactic should things go sour.

[Fortis_Leader]

I agree that a defensive circle isn't much of an offensive thing, but that doesn't retract from its value. E.g. the Thach Weave depended 100% on the Japanese pilot to either be one of the first ones to encounter it, or be colossally stupid to fall for it once it was "figured out", and that was a tactic that actual fighters depended on. That hardly made it a worthless tactic.

 

I'd say you're exaggerating how much a single element can accomplish. If it indeed is a matter of just two fighters trying to take on a large force of 110s, I don't see how the latter couldn't either bug out or take the fight to the enemy if they accurately gauged the quantity of the opposition and were well enough rehearsed in tactics and teamwork with each other. Most importantly though, in war you never get a second chance if you're killed; Even if a tactic doesn't allow you to shoot down scores of enemy planes or obliterate entire regiments, just keeping you alive to fight another day is in itself good enough. It's what most tactics IRL are about.

Edited November 19, 2015 by 1./ZG1_AnthonyP

[6./ZG26_Emil]

From John Vasco on defensive circles

 

I'd like to touch on the defence circle (or the 'attack' circle as some crews disparagingly called it). A couple of examples:
1. The Croydon raid of 15th August 1940 involving the Bf 110s of Stab, 1. & 2./Erprobungsgruppe 210. Going in to attack the airfield, RAF fighters were already seen. The simple tactic,therefore, upon releasing their bombs was to climb and form a defensive circle(s), which was done. None were shot down while in the circle. What had to happen next was on a command, those aircraft in each circle would break for home as an entity. Wolfgang Schenck (and I hate quoting this guy on a regular basis, but he had so much information and knowledge that it would have been foolish to ignore it) told me that when he rejoined his Staffel (1./Erpr. Gr 210, the old 1./ZG 1) on 4th September 1940, he had chatted with Martin Lutz about the loss of Rubensdörffer on this raid. Lutz told him that 'Rubs' had got the break from his 'Stab' circle all wrong, resulting in Rubs (CO), Fiedler (Adjutant) and Koch (TO) being shot down, and Willi Benedens (who was attached as supernumerary to the Stabsschwarm) getting back to Calais-Marck in a badly damaged Bf 110. For the other two circles, 1. Staffel lost one Bf 110 (Beudel) and 2. Staffel lost two Bf 110s (Ortner and Habisch), with recent evidence pointing to the likelihood that Habisch's Bordfunker, Elfner, inadvertently shot through the rear controls of his aircraft in trying to fend off RAF fighters, thereby shooting his own aircraft down. SO, for the two Staffeln who got the break from the circle correct, losing one aircraft each to 18 RAF fighters (9 each from 32 and 111 Sqdns.) seems to be pretty good damage limitation. And yes, I know you must factor in the Stab losses overall, I'm just pointing out what the situation was with a well executed circle and break for home.
2. The defensive circle set in place on 27th September by ZG 26 when Erprobungsgruppe 210 set out to attack the Parnall factory at Yate near Bristol. ZG 26 set up a holding circle near the coast to await the return of 210 from the target. Now I don't know how good Luftwaffe Intelligence was with regard to the placement and movement of RAF Squadrons, but 504 Sqdn moved to Filton OVERNIGHT and were in place wonderfully to head-off 210 as they approached their target. Perhaps Luftwaffe Intelligence believed there would be no RAF squadrons in the vicinity of the target, and so believed 210 could have a free run in on it, while ZG 26 waited near the coast where it was believed the real intervention would take place. Hence the ZG 26 position and holding circle, in place to protect and ferry the bombing 110s back across the Channel, and mix it with any RAF squadrons that rose to intercept. We know that 504 intercepted 210 in the Bristol area, which was probably not part of the Luftwaffe plan, and more RAF squadrons intercepted around the coastal area and further inland, with consequent losses to the 110 units.

Edited November 19, 2015 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Thanks for sharing, Emil.

 

For that matter, the weave is not a perfect fighter tactic by any means but it has the advantage of being able to take your flight home in the process whereas the circle for obvious reasons keeps you over the action area for longer and relies on a well executed break to prevent a disaster, while the weave although requiring practice too can be more friendly to novice pilots and elements who aren't used to flying together.

[PatrickAWlson]

Your 110 is not fast, had poor acceleration, it is not a great climber, and it is not maneuverable.  If an enemy fighter spots you does his job right you will be relying on the rear gunner.

 

Good things about the 110:

It made a great night fighter

It was a good ground attack platform

It could be effective against daylight bombers as long as it did not have to deal with escorts.

With a heavy punch concentrated in the nose you can shred anything in front of you.

 

But it was not a good fighter.

[Jade_Monkey]

As bait?

You nailed it! lol

[Asgar]

You nailed it! lol

or...not

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

A Bf-110 in BOS/BOM with a great gunner will be able to handle itself. Compared to CLOD the gunner system is much better/easier to handle in BOS/BOM

[Finkeren]

I'd say you're exaggerating how much a single element can accomplish. If it indeed is a matter of just two fighters trying to take on a large force of 110s, I don't see how the latter couldn't either bug out or take the fight to the enemy if they accurately gauged the quantity of the opposition and were well enough rehearsed in tactics and teamwork with each other. .

Bingo! You nailed it right there! That's exactly what Bf 110 crews will lack in BoM compared to RL and why it likely won't be very succesful as a fighter in the sim.

 

It's no good talking about relatively advanced tactics like a loose, multi-layered defensive circle as the saving grace of the 110 in BoM. Such tactics require more than just cooperation, it requires well rehearsed coordination, which is something that only a couple of online squadrons might be able to achieve, not the casual player.

 

The 110 will be a fun plane to fly and a good ground pounder as well as bomber interceptor (though it might have trouble catching the Pe-2s).

A great fighter it won't be.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Finkeren

[Fortis_Leader]

There I agree, certainly true. It applies to all planes, but obviously to less agile ones more so.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Well said, Finkeren. I am interested in seeing the results of ZG 1 and ZG 26 operating on squadron level though - these are perhaps the people who will determine just how effective can the Bf-110 be if operated by pilots used to their ride and who coordinate their efforts well.

 

It's interesting how a lot of the Battle of Moscow aircraft can fall under the 'specialist' plane category. The I-16 is the most hands-on aircraft most people will ever experience (quoting a Soviet pilot, training in the I-16 and UTI-4 was efficient: if you can fly that, you can fly anything!), the MiG-3 has many different quirks and requires silk hands to operate, the P-40 is heavy and needs any pilot to bring their best tactic game to be effective, the Bf-109E is nimble and steady but slow, and the Bf-110E is... well, read this thread really!

[Feathered_IV]

It's odd. Our I-16 is incredibly docile. Both in the air and in its ground handling.

[Cybermat47]

That's what Goering said.

This made me laugh out loud XD

[Finkeren]

It's interesting how a lot of the Battle of Moscow aircraft can fall under the 'specialist' plane category. The I-16 is the most hands-on aircraft most people will ever experience (quoting a Soviet pilot, training in the I-16 and UTI-4 was efficient: if you can fly that, you can fly anything!), the MiG-3 has many different quirks and requires silk hands to operate, the P-40 is heavy and needs any pilot to bring their best tactic game to be effective, the Bf-109E is nimble and steady but slow, and the Bf-110E is... well, read this thread really!

Excellent point. I've noticed this too, and it's the reason I think that the BoM plane set by itself is more interesting than that of BoS.

 

The outlier here will be the Bf 109F2, which will propably handle much like an underpowered F4. It will be the fastest and best climbing plane at altitudes below 4000m posibly even above that. The only plane to really challenge it performance-wise will be the MiG and that only at high altitude. It won't be the rocketship that the F4 is in BoS, but it will be the sort of "EZ-mode" plane, with no major weaknesses (outside of its not very impressive firepower) and very easy to use effectively.

I fear that once (if?) we get pure BoM servers, we might see virtually all LW fighter pilots fly the F2, which would actually be fairly historically accurate as the F2 was the mainstay of the Jagdwaffe at the time of the battle, but which would hurt gameplay.

[Klaue]

I fear that once (if?) we get pure BoM servers, we might see virtually all LW fighter pilots fly the F2

 

S! Not this pilot.   Bf-110 and Bf-109E-7 if top cover is needed.

Edited November 20, 2015 by 6./ZG1_Klaue

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I think having a sea of Bf-109F-2s will indeed give the Jagdwaffe an advantage but I believe it won't hurt gameplay in the long run. There's always the people who play both sides equally online. The newer pilots will probably gravitate towards it, and a lot of experienced ones will enjoy it for the advantages it packs. On the VVS side, you will get adventurous and brave greenhorns plus the experienced tacticians who can get the very best out of the MiG-3, I-16 and P-40. I dream of picking another 7 crazy people to work out a Kubanskaya Etazhorka once BoM is out I-16s at the bottom shelf, MiG-3s in the 2 middle ones and a pair of P-40s on top to dive onto any incoming enemy.