From Crosswind to Schreiner and back. My rudderpedals oddyssey.

[SR-F_Winger]

I am always on the lookout for the best and most precise/durable simhardware i can find. On my way to looking for the non plus ultra rudderpedals I started out with the MFG Crosswind pedals. They were really well made and very precise. Nothing to critizise. They guy that sold me my Schreinerschmid KG20 Joystick (wich i was amazed of the buildquality and precision) then offered a set of Schreinerschmidt Ssmcockpit rudderpedals. From the pictures i saw I thought this must be the ultimate rudderpedals. End even thou I was satisfied with my Crosswinds I was thinking. If i buy those i will never ever have to buy other pedals in my life. So thought and done i went ahead and ordered the Schreinerpedals. When they arrived I was at first positively surprised about how heavy they were. They are all machined from solid aluminium and are very very well crafted. When fitting them into my simckckpit. Witch is more like a tuned standard office chair I quickly realized the first small shortcoming. The Schreiners are designed to be used in a real replica simcockpit. Schreiner Schmid was manufacturing those and the ergonomic of the pedals are perfectly made if you sit down low in a simckkpit aircraft seat. The problem is that the angle of the brakepedals is not adjustable. So when sitting on a standard office chair you sit far higher and therefor have a tight angle when resting with the foot. This was very uncomfortable at longer flightturns. After contacting the Schreiner he showed very cooperative and offered to create a custom adjustable part so i could lower the brakepedal angle. And this free of charge. So after the adjustments finally arrived the brake angle was no longer an issue.

So I was using the pedals and was pretty satisfied. One other feature of the Schreinerpedals are the gas dameners. The Brake pedals use gas dameners to put back the footrests into standard position after the brake. Those dampeners work well but require quite some force to be actuated. No problem and actually feels kind of authentic when you play a WWII Flightsim or another standard aircraft sim. But when it comes to pure precision its somewhat of a downside. The dameners have a little „sticktion“. So when you press the pedal you need a certain amount of force before the pedals start moving at all. Once you applied more than the needed amount of force they start to abruptley move. So applying only very tiny amounts of axismovement to the toebrakes is very hard. Agian no biggy for a standard flightsim but when it comes to precision flight like Star Citizen or Elite dangerous you need every bit of precision. The Solution MFG chose with the gigantic tension spring is IMHO the better solution and works very much better when it comes to pure precision. Next catchword is centering. Thsi was the biggest issue for me qich i oculd not adjust myself to totally ignore. The Schreiners have practically no middle centering. The ruddermovement is dampened by two gas pressure dampeners but they dont move back to middlepisition by themselves. When flying a WWI fighter in a competitive online environment like Battle of stalingrad you cant simply have permanently slightly sliding and loosing airspeed. If you want to avoid that you have to consciously check „are my pedals in the middle?“. Big downside!
The MFG Crosswinds offer a qider range of adjustability for everything. You can adjust Toebrake angle. With an addon you can increase the distance between the toebrakes. The Swivel of the footrests can be adjusted and with the CAM system you can influence they way the selfcentering feels around the centerposition.

Catchword precision I come over to electronics.
The Schreiner Schmidt pedals use Hall sensors just like the Crosswinds. With the diffrence that the Sensors that are being used in the MFGs are far more sophisitcated and have a mugh higher resolution than the Schreiners Halls. On top of that the Schreiner pedals feature a standard Leo Bodnar BU0836A controllerboard. The programmability those boards offer are very limited.
The features you get with the MFG electronics are also much more advanced. You can link axes together. Have axes trigger buttons and whatnot else.
Also the way the hall sensors on the Schreiners work only allow a very limited amount of precision. even the Bodnar board offer 12bit resolution the limited travel you have only leaves like 500-600 raw steps (dependant on actual degrees rotation) from the possible 4096 steps you would have if you would read a full 360° rotation. For the toebrakes its only like 40° movement thats monitored and only a little more for the actual rudder axis.
The MFG electroniccs have the possibility to put the full amount of resolution on the actual traveled distance. My thechnical knowledge is very limited and i dont know if i comunicated this clear but it comes down to this: Bodnar board offers 4096 steps for 360°. So if you only travel 40° your effective resolution is reduced to like 455. The MFG electronics allow you to have the full 4096 steps for the distance traveled. Independant of the actual degrees rotation. So this is another BIG plus for the crosswinds.

Schriener Schmidt:

Build quality: (all metal and ball bearing construction) +++
Ergonomics and adjustability: Non existant. If you use a simcockpit with very low seatposition this is no problem. But otherwise youre a little left without options. You have to adjust the position o fthe pedals. No other way. This is a little upgraded by the cooperation i experienced. Overall great service from the Schreiner and the distributor. +
Precision: Good since its hall sensors that are being used and the amount of precision granted fromt he start is OK but nothing special. +
Software: Very limited because the Bodar board offer very limited programmability.
Price: I dont remember exactly but they were something like above 600,- €

MFG Crossind

Build quality: Very well made and highly precisie parts have been used. There is no part I would want to change to tune the pedals. One could say „but they are not metal“. This is no argument since the material thats being used is more than strong enough to endure heavy flightimming for a VERYYY long time.
Ergonomics and adjustability: Unparalelled. There are no simpedals on the market (that i know of) that offer better adjustabilty than the Crosswinds. +++
Precision: Remarkable. I know of no other pedals that offer a higher degree of precision.+++
Software: Superb. Like mentioned above a wide array of comfortable options. There comes nothing to my mind thats not already covered in the software. +++
Price: 320,-€ including taxes for a european customer. There is nothing better you can get for that money.

Now guess what pedaly are now being used again in my simpit. MFG Crosswinds all the way!

Edited November 14, 2015 by Winger

[dburne]

Nice write up!

 

I have the MFG Crosswinds on order, due for a probably late Dec delivery.

Really looking forward to getting them and trying them out.

[Sokol1]

 

 

My thechnical knowledge is very limited and i dont know if i comunicated this clear but it comes down to this: Bodnar board offers 4096 steps for 360°. So if you only travel 40° your effective resolution is reduced to like 455. The MFG electronics allow you to have the full 4096 steps for the distance traveled. Independant of the actual degrees rotation. So this is another BIG plus for the crosswinds.

 

BU0836A allow 12 bits (4096 resolution points) but is not measured in rotation degrees - although dependent - is if the voltage variation read be HALL sensor (or potentiometer) send to controller varies from ~0 to ~5 volts, the 12 bits is reached.*

 

So the resolution depends on how sensor work, some need that the magnet turn in front then 60 or 90 degrees to do this voltage variation, other 180 or 360... For the same reason is difficult replace potentiometer in joystick/throttle/pedal  that use it, commercial pot'  normally turn 270 degrees, joy' pot are made be order with only 30/40 degrees of resistive area.

 

The sensor used in Crosswind rudder axis, the Melexis MLX 90333 is programmable, is just mater to define to then: read 0 to 5 volts with 30/40 degrees of magnet turn...

 

Crosswind, as said in their main page "Arguably the best value in rudder pedals currently available to flight sim enthusiasts"... despite the motto of some vir'pilots: "metal is that it's real". 

 

They have the metal wheres is need, in ball bearings, axis. Not like some hyped joysticks that is metal but don't have metal wheres is needed. 

 

*You can check this effective resolution with the tool JoyTester2.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Sokol1

[Bando]

Nice write up Winger.

I was wondering why you sold them (the schreiner pedals).

 

Off topic:

It was way back when you purchased the Schreiner stick that spurred me into thinking I wanted a stick attached to the ground as well.

As the Schreiner was way above my budget, it started with a piece of wood on the MSFFB2 and ended with the Warthog + 20 cm extension from Sahaj.

And then came the MFG Crosswinds, they are greatly crafted and very precise.

Very happy in my "pit" now.

[Matt]

Nice comparison. Does anybody with Crosswinds have a problem with the linearity of the toe brake? Or is it really 100% exact when you push both brakes at the same time?

 

That's the only issue i have with my Crosswinds. If i push both brakes to the same angle, one of the axes is ahead of the other. While the software is extremely powerful, i'm still having a hard time fixing this completely and getting exact same braking power on both brakes. Not good for breaking after landing.

 

And i find the main spring a bit too strong for taxiing on the ground (FFB pedals would be nice...). I'll probably replace it with a weaker spring.

 

But other than that, there's absolutely nothing that i could think of that could be improved on the Crosswinds.

[Sokol1]

 

 

 (FFB pedals would be nice...)

 

Games (and MS drivers) don't support FFB other than in joystick X, Y axis... But dream is free allowed.

 

 

 

 I'll probably replace it with a weaker spring.

 

Adjust the spring screw support don't help (left side of pedal)?

[=LD=Penshoon]

Got my pair of mfg crosswind a few days ago and they are AMAZING. 

[PeterZvan]

Matt - did you try adjusting it with DIView? Manual calibration - edit the axis and go to raw values than edit accordingly - see the values over the range when you press it and than readjust.

Normaly it should be relativly linear so it might only be offset in the calibration.

 

BTW: Crosswinds are excelent - I doubt that there is acctually anything better out there.

[ST_Pirato]

Nice comparison. Does anybody with Crosswinds have a problem with the linearity of the toe brake? Or is it really 100% exact when you push both brakes at the same time?

 

That's the only issue i have with my Crosswinds. If i push both brakes to the same angle, one of the axes is ahead of the other. While the software is extremely powerful, i'm still having a hard time fixing this completely and getting exact same braking power on both brakes. Not good for breaking after landing.

 

And i find the main spring a bit too strong for taxiing on the ground (FFB pedals would be nice...). I'll probably replace it with a weaker spring.

 

But other than that, there's absolutely nothing that i could think of that could be improved on the Crosswinds.

Have you tried to set a Deadzone ? I had to set a different Deadzone for Left and Right brake,if I recall correctly the left has at 20% and the right at 16%. Both move more or less equal.

[[TWB]Pand]

Crosswinds FTW!  Nothing else has even come close IMHO, and ordering/working with Milan was a treat.

[Matt]

Games (and MS drivers) don't support FFB other than in joystick X, Y axis... But dream is free allowed.

 

 

Adjust the spring screw support don't help (left side of pedal)?

Yeah well, maybe someone else will improve upon FFB in the future and add the Z-axis too. I know that that's doutful, unless flightsims become more popular, which of course is even more doubtful.

I already use the weakest spring setting possible. That setting is basically perfect for smooth actions in flight, but for taxiing and rolling out, which requires quick, strong inputs, it doesn't work well for me.

 

Matt - did you try adjusting it with DIView? Manual calibration - edit the axis and go to raw values than edit accordingly - see the values over the range when you press it and than readjust. Normaly it should be relativly linear so it might only be offset in the calibration.

Yes, i adjusted it with DIView. But it's still not smooth. To compensate for my problem, i had to create a curve to one of the axes, so it's not exactly the same and only one of them is linear now.

 

Have you tried to set a Deadzone ? I had to set a different Deadzone for Left and Right brake,if I recall correctly the left has at 20% and the right at 16%. Both move more or less equal.

Yes, i use a small deadzone both for the beginning and end of both axes, just to avoid pushing the brakes by mistake or not getting full braking power, but it doesn't really help with the uneven axis input i'm experiencing.

 

It's not really a huge issue, i'm just wondering if i'm alone with this.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Matt

[dburne]

Yes, i use a small deadzone both for the beginning and end of both axes, just to avoid pushing the brakes by mistake or not getting full braking power, but it doesn't really help with the uneven axis input i'm experiencing.

 

It's not really a huge issue, i'm just wondering if i'm alone with this.

 

Interesting, I will be sure and check for that when I get mine hopefully in late December.

[Dutch2]

Guys before buying, do a search on the web, seems lately lots of comparisons/reviews are published.    

[Sokol1]

Comparison/review help but not much:

 

The guy that buy/review the Crosswind will say: Is the best pedal around.

The guy that buy/review the Slaw will say: Is the best pedal around.

 

Remember when they say the same about Cougar - that have one the most worst gimbal used in joysticks?

 

In SimHQ are a comparison from a guy that buy both "high end pedal", but in the end he reveal upset because pay more than expected in one, and this influenced his "comparison".

 

Technical and electronics both pedals are equivalent, no advantage for none, and the only real advantage in the  "all metal" pedal is the look (and some extra wight).

Edited November 17, 2015 by Sokol1