FW-190 and the Armor Plate.

[Finkeren]

Ask yourself , if it was you as a real WWII pilot , " and your life depended upon it " !!! and had the choice for todays mission as it stands today with this FM .

Would you take the 190 or the 109 .

Propably 109. I feel more safe knowing that I can outclimb an opponent than outrun him.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

109. Flying fighters it's probably wiser to be able to kill everyone so you have nobody to chase you afterwards instead, it makes things much simpler

[Alkyan]

The 109 outrun vss planes just as well as the 190 if not better in BoS.

 

On the other hand in reality Im sure I'll appreciate the modernity of the 190, the fact that you might need less efforts to fly the plane, etc ... Stuff that don't matter in a video game.

[Matt]

I would appreciate the sturdiness of the Fw 190 in a belly landing, especially if i'm flying so low, that i can't bail out.

[KoN_]

I love flying the 190 to be honest . But as it stands today i would take the 109 .  i have a 80%  chance coming home with her .

[WokeUpDead]

Sorry to bring up an old post, but I have noticed the same thing, my pilot gets killed from 6 o'clock in the 190 a lot more often than in other planes.  The last two times it happened was against a Yak, at a long distance (I estimate 300-400m at least), and against a MiG, also from quite a way out.  The MiG does not have cannons as far as I know, and I'm pretty sure the Yak was out of cannons and was just spamming me with his small machine-guns when he killed me.  I could hear the bullets bounce harmlessly off my wings and fuselage, I could see just the twin tracers of the Yak's MGs, not the cannon, and all of a sudden I'm dead.

[Willy__]

 

 

The MiG does not have cannons as far as I know

 

It does, currently you can choose these armaments for the MiG:

 

1. 2x MG and 1x 50.cal

2. 2x .50 cal

3. 2x ShvaK 20mm cannons 

 

All of those mounted on the nose. Apart from that, you can also get 2 gunpods under the wings (1 on each wing).

[Wulf]

Sorry to bring up an old post, but I have noticed the same thing, my pilot gets killed from 6 o'clock in the 190 a lot more often than in other planes.  The last two times it happened was against a Yak, at a long distance (I estimate 300-400m at least), and against a MiG, also from quite a way out.  The MiG does not have cannons as far as I know, and I'm pretty sure the Yak was out of cannons and was just spamming me with his small machine-guns when he killed me.  I could hear the bullets bounce harmlessly off my wings and fuselage, I could see just the twin tracers of the Yak's MGs, not the cannon, and all of a sudden I'm dead.

 

 

400 m is hardly extreme.  Certainly, rifle cal. ammo would have no difficulty passing through an aircraft wing at that range.  Even the seat and head armour couldn't be relied on at 400 m if AP rounds were mixed in with the projectiles coming your way.  The biggest problem would be hitting you at 400 m - not killing you.

[Fern]

I'm also being killed from dead six quite regularly now. Yaks have been some of the culprits. Today was a 300 meter instakill from dead six. I would think the angled 12mm or 19mm plate would deflect or stop these rounds...

 

Im guessing the table below is armor at 0 degrees. 

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/soviet-union/guns.asp

     

Shvak    20mm AP penetration 24mm at 100 meters

  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Fern

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

From what I could find, the head rest was 12mm, the seat was 8mm, with ShVAK having 25mm of pen at 100m,  then 19mm of pen at 500m.  The 12.7mm around the same, 26mm at 100m, 17mm at 500m.

 

The plates have some angling but it's minimal.

 

Overall plane armor served against rifle caliber mg, being around 5-15mm in most cases... To be reliably working against 20mm and .50 cal AP you would need around 20-25mm which is quite a bit for airplane armor.

[Fern]

I would think at dead six rounds would have to go thru the vertical stab and then the minimal angled armor plate. I guess I wont put auto level on in an attempt to outrun. Sure way to get sniped in the 190.

[Max_Damage]

First of all, russian guns are tested in penetration against russian armor and as far as i remember, the russian armor is ~x1.3 times stronger then the german aircraft armor. 25 mm penetration would mean 30+ against german armor.

And the pilot protection is there only against 7.62.

 

Another fun part of it is how il 2 has 12 mm cemented armor which translates into ~15-16 mm german penetration. And mg151 has like 18-19. So with slight angling and at even 100 m the german 20mm ap would not penetrate.

[Irgendjemand]

 

 

A lot of people fly with full AP-ammo

Is there AP ammo selection for german planes as well? Never looked. 

[Turban]

My pilot getting killed (mostly on first shot from my6s ) is my number 1 cause of death when flying the FW.

Not sure it means something but it is very noticeable.

[150GCT_Veltro]

I've already reported this problem time ago, the insane % of pilot killed with FW-190, but is the same with Macchi 202. This is not related to DM i'm afraid, but to the insane overpowered VVS weapons (AP).

 

It's an old story.......

 

Edit.

Believe me, now the FW "glasses" DM has been improved. I'm really surprised that only now people does realize the ridiculous % of pilot killed.

Edited February 14, 2017 by 150GCT_Veltro

[BlitzPig_EL]

I remember once Oleg answered a similar question about the original sim, and he said that if they 100% realistically modeled pilot vulnerability that no one would fly the sim.

 

WW2 fighter aircraft (well, most all WW2 aircraft for that matter) are thin skinned, fragile things.  Their amazing ability to take G loads and travel at 400+ mph does not give them the ability to stop bullets.

 

If you get the chance to actually sit in, or fly in, one of these great machines, after the giddyness of the experience passes, the sobering reality sets in, at least it does for me.  There is very little between you and the great beyond, just a thin sheet of aluminum or some tightly stretched fabric, and what training, and luck, you have.

[Scojo]

I would think at dead six rounds would have to go thru the vertical stab

I would imagine this doesn't slow the round down much or deform it. The most it might do is slightly redirect the bullet.

 

Now if the round hits the structural metal, then it would, but you're much more likely just to hit sheet metal firing through the tail, I think

[Dutchvdm]

I remember once Oleg answered a similar question about the original sim, and he said that if they 100% realistically modeled pilot vulnerability that no one would fly the sim.

 

WW2 fighter aircraft (well, most all WW2 aircraft for that matter) are thin skinned, fragile things.  Their amazing ability to take G loads and travel at 400+ mph does not give them the ability to stop bullets.

 

If you get the chance to actually sit in, or fly in, one of these great machines, after the giddyness of the experience passes, the sobering reality sets in, at least it does for me.  There is very little between you and the great beyond, just a thin sheet of aluminum or some tightly stretched fabric, and what training, and luck, you have.

 

Il-2 BOS i think it is modeled quiet well. This in contrast to ROF. For me it's acceptable. 

 

Grt M

[3./JG15_Kampf]

This instant death is very persepeable in fw190 (mainly for 6 hours). I agree that the pilot is the fragile part of an airplane, but in the fw 190 it is even more fragile. Do not receive almost instantaneous deaths flying 109. Destroying Russian aircraft with the fw 190, I can count on the fingers the instant deaths I can, even Russian aircraft carrying many hits

[Scojo]

It sounds like we're getting enough first hand testimonies that this might be a real issue and should be looked into...

 

Who wants to be the first to record some decent tests on the subject and gather some data?

Edited February 14, 2017 by 71st_AH_Scojo

[BlitzPig_EL]

Il-2 BOS i think it is modeled quiet well. This in contrast to ROF. For me it's acceptable. 

 

Grt M

I agree with you on both counts.

 

The bullet resistant canvas in RoF is one of the reasons it's no longer on my hard drive.

[PatrickAWlson]

My pilot getting killed (mostly on first shot from my6s ) is my number 1 cause of death when flying the FW.

 

Not sure it means something but it is very noticeable.

 

It means you let too many bad guys get on your 6 ...  Sorry, couldn't resist.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

It means you let too many bad guys get on your 6 ...  Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Could be the only time that "You're doing it wrong!" is a fair and fitting answer.

 

Hehe.

 

I don't have too many issues getting PK'd in the 190 but I don't fly MP as much as a lot of you and even expert AI can hardly hit the broad side of a barn... Unless you're at a high angle... Then they seem to get a lot of lucky shots.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Not my experience at all. Then again, I usually maintain an E advantage and always jink, light to moderate, while extending. If you just do a wings level dash one of those rounds will get you for sure.

[Riderocket]

I agree with you on both counts.

 

The bullet resistant canvas in RoF is one of the reasons it's no longer on my hard drive.

I have no trouble shooting planes down in RoF, as long as you hit the fuselage, remember too, bullets go right through canvas and leave little holes. They don't explode and leave chunks of plane every where like on WW2 aircraft.

 

In RoF you really gotta be accurate.

[Scojo]

I have no trouble shooting planes down in RoF, as long as you hit the fuselage, remember too, bullets go right through canvas and leave little holes. They don't explode and leave chunks of plane every where like on WW2 aircraft.

 

In RoF you really gotta be accurate.

At least in most of the material I've read on WWI air combat, the most commonly given advice is "Aim for the pilot" or "Aim for the motor".

 

You don't exactly have to in RoF though, I've taken down quite a few planes by shooting the wing support areas. Two seaters are even more prone to wing damage affecting them. Those suckers will rip right off since they're carrying heavier loads

[BlitzPig_EL]

I am well aware of the construction techniques used on the WW1 aircraft, having seen a couple in the NMUSAF  Wright Field restoration shop that didn't have the fabric on yet.

 

When I first started RoF, at the beginning, and up until a few years ago, you could shoot through the underside of the aircraft in the cockpit and never hurt the pilot or gunner.  Now, perhaps that has changed.  If so, all the better.

Edited February 16, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[Scojo]

I am well aware of the construction techniques used on the WW1 aircraft, having seen a couple in the NMUSAF  Wright Field restoration shop that didn't have the fabric on yet.

 

When I first started RoF, at the beginning, and up until a few years ago, you could shoot through the underside of the aircraft in the cockpit and never hurt the pilot or gunner.  Now, perhaps that has changed.  If so, all the better.

Ah ok I see what you mean now

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

When I first started RoF, at the beginning, and up until a few years ago, you could shoot through the underside of the aircraft in the cockpit and never hurt the pilot or gunner. 

 

-snip-

 

This - and to my knowledge, EL, it hasn't changed.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[ZachariasX]

This - and to my knowledge, EL, it hasn't changed.

It works, I mostly shoot down bombers like that. But I aim at the wings. One burst an they come of. Even flying tanks like the D.F.W. can be taken out conveniently like that, just using a single machine gun. Why let the other guy miss out on the last dive?

 

In RoF, pilot kills in my experience are difficult because of the large scatter. The pilot is a small target and you have to get really close to make 4 hits. Just activate "improved gunnery" and you can execute pilots easily. Or saw their wing of.

 

The guns have been worked on in the last couple iterations of RoF.

[Bullets]

You guys are all missing his point haha...  

[Gambit21]

I remember once Oleg answered a similar question about the original sim, and he said that if they 100% realistically modeled pilot vulnerability that no one would fly the sim.

 

WW2 fighter aircraft (well, most all WW2 aircraft for that matter) are thin skinned, fragile things. Their amazing ability to take G loads and travel at 400+ mph does not give them the ability to stop bullets.

 

If you get the chance to actually sit in, or fly in, one of these great machines, after the giddyness of the experience passes, the sobering reality sets in, at least it does for me. There is very little between you and the great beyond, just a thin sheet of aluminum or some tightly stretched fabric, and what training, and luck, you have.

This

I was examining a cross section of a Blenheim recently at a museum - and marveling at how little there is between the crew and the sky and the rounds flying about beyond. You could put a hole in it with a .22.

[Riderocket]

You guys are all missing his point haha...

I get his point.

 

But...

 

I don't know why he would uninstall a game because you found shooting down planes hard, that has to do with your own skill.

 

Not the game.

 

As far as I'm concerned, you can hit the pilot and gunners and engine from almost any direction, you just gotta be accurate.

 

My accuracy in RoF is usually around 20-40% when I really try. I'd say as long as you're above 30% accurate, you'll find shooting down planes extremely easy.

 

Edit: the reason I'm currently not playing RoF is because of IL-2

Edited February 16, 2017 by Riderocket

[TAAC_Blue]

I dont think El removed RoF because lack of skill...Shooting planes down in RoF is relatively easy...aim for wings, metal or meat. The problem lies with the requirement to place 4 rounds into the pilot in order to kill him.

[Riderocket]

I dont think El removed RoF because lack of skill...Shooting planes down in RoF is relatively easy...aim for wings, metal or meat. The problem lies with the requirement to place 4 rounds into the pilot in order to kill him.

 

oh right.. 

 

i never really noticed before, because when you shoot the pilot they usually crash or cant maneuvure. so they die anyway. 

 

 

back to topic!, was flying a FW190 just then, and a yak1b shot me down in flames   Salute him for having good aim 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Riderocket

[Chief_Mouser]

This

I was examining a cross section of a Blenheim recently at a museum - and marveling at how little there is between the crew and the sky and the rounds flying about beyond. You could put a hole in it with a .22.

 

I once talked with an old Sunderland pilot who, after I asked him about what happened when the aircraft got hit, told me to push on the fuselage side. Of a Sandringham rather than a Sunderland but the same thing. Flimsy wasn't the word for it. Apparently bullets would enter one side and exit the other with no trouble at all, and you know how wide those things are. He said that all you could do was hope that you weren't in between the entry and exit point when it happened.

Cheers.

[Scojo]

I once talked with an old Sunderland pilot who, after I asked him about what happened when the aircraft got hit, told me to push on the fuselage side. Of a Sandringham rather than a Sunderland but the same thing. Flimsy wasn't the word for it. Apparently bullets would enter one side and exit the other with no trouble at all, and you know how wide those things are. He said that all you could do was hope that you weren't in between the entry and exit point when it happened.

Cheers.

Not much surprise at all. Even most of what makes up military aircraft today is relatively easy to punch through. Sheet metal isn't very strong at all.

 

Armored plating weighs a lot relative to what weight an aircraft needs to be at, especially a high performance fighter.

 

I doubt even some of the structural components in the plane would stop a bullet or even redirect it much.

 

at 13mm of steel plate for head and shoulders in the FW-190, I wouldn't expect to be extremely protected. Not only can it easily be shot around and hit other parts of the body, but if the attacker is at half gun range, a good burst would probably eat through it.

 

Steel armor is like any other kind of protection. It has it's limits.

 

The only way we can really settle this debate is for someone to run some organized and controlled tests in quick missions or created missions

[BlitzPig_EL]

I didn't uninstall it BTW, I just didn't re-install it when I built the current computer, there is a subtle difference here.

 

I don't hate the game, I just don't like it enough to give it any of my ever decreasing free time,

 

I shot down a fair few aircraft in RoF as well, loved to see the wings crumple in an enemy plane as much as anyone, but I won't gloss over the inconsistencies in it either.

[Gump]

oh look, there is a topic about this!

.

just yesterday I was insta- PK'd in a 190. it was surprising. never had that happen to me in this sim. seemed like the 1st bullet must've hit me in the head- didn't hear or see any previous hits/tracers. the enemy was quite a bit lower/behind me (not directly 6). I commented in a congratulatory manner. now I see im not the only one astounded by this. it'd be interesting to see a replay from various angles to see just where the bullet hit.

.

if this is realistic, ok, but it doesn't seem to happen in other planes, does it?

[Fern]

I went back to watch one of my instakill dead six deaths and it looks the yak-1b HE round hit beside the cockpit and entered the canopy is what killed me.