Please modify the position of tracers in P-40 belts.

[Jaws2002]

    Could you please modify the position of the tracers in the belts, so the plane doesn't shoot tracers in the same time from all six guns, and then no tracer from any gun for the next four shots. This is completely pointless for any purpose.

 

 

 

 

 

free image uploading

[Adriaan]

I don't remember where but someone from the development team answered it was known and would be fixed at some point

[IIN8II]

I don't remember where but someone from the development team answered it was known and would be fixed at some point

+1, I remember reading that as well

[Jaws2002]

I don't remember where but someone from the development team answered it was known and would be fixed at some point

 

 

Didn't know that.

 

Cool. Thank you!

[Y-29.Silky]

Oh thank God. I also hope they only put the tracers on the inner two guns and every 8-10 rounds. Most guncams show only 1-2 guns had tracers if any tracers at all.

 

The Star Wars Effect we have now was usually put at the end of their belt to notify them that they were running out of ammo. And they were white tracers, rather than red.

 

But please, the laser beams should go.

[Jaws2002]

Oh thank God. I also hope they only put the tracers on the inner two guns and every 8-10 rounds. Most guncams show only 1-2 guns had tracers if any tracers at all.

 

The Star Wars Effect we have now was usually put at the end of their belt to notify them that they were running out of ammo. And they were white tracers, rather than red.

 

But please, the laser beams should go.

 

Are you sure?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h11uEvGc7u8

Edited November 11, 2015 by Jaws2002

[Jaws2002]

There were few configurations during the war. Some, late in the war loaded only API, but most of the loadouts used mixed types of ammo:

 

I'll paste this whole post, from DCS, as it has a lot of info, including manuals, photos of boxes and so on. As you can see, the rule was to have tracers loaded in the guns. Some of the more experienced pilots, late in the war, removed the tracers from their guns, but it was never the standard.

 

There were different belt configurations, but most used were two main configurations for Fighter planes. Before march 1944 was:
https://html2-f.scri...-e8bc9de163.jpg
AP-AP-I-I-IT
M2-M2-M1-M1-M1 tracer

Then since March 1944 M8 rounds started to appear. First only used by the aces and suqadron leaders. Later, by all other pilots.

https://html1-f.scri...-c315e85f21.jpg
Standard packaging of those rounds were
API-I-API-I-APIT
M8-M1-M8-M1-M20
Both standard ammo boxes, just M10 instead of M20.



Other rounds mentioned are M10 tracer and M23 Incindieary. M23 was used since German Jets were coming into the fight. M23 was even better with the ability to set fire than M1 round.
Due to introduction of M23, M1 was some times completely swapped.
API-I-API-I-APIT
M8-M23-M8-M23-M20

Stll even though these were the standard loads they were often changed by the pilots themselves. The proof is in the pictures in posts before.

So there was a high probablity of M8 only and 9xM8-1xM20 ammo only belts like Richard Peterson haved said.

I would still suggest AP to be switched to API only and then later other belts could be added. That is because only one round would have to be created and later on other standards could be added as options to be taken.

Nowhere though was a single mention of M2 (AP) and M20(APIT) only round belts.

References:
http://pl.scribd.com...Browning#scribd
http://www.crazyhors...C/P-51BC_03.htm

__________________

 

 

 

 

Oh thank God. I also hope they only put the tracers on the inner two guns and every 8-10 rounds. Most guncams show only 1-2 guns had tracers if any tracers at all.

The Star Wars Effect we have now was usually put at the end of their belt to notify them that they were running out of ammo. And they were white tracers, rather than red.

But please, the laser beams should go.

 

Just like back in ww2, only the fifth round is tracer. The amount of tracers in the belt is historical. They just need to move them around so not all the guns shoot tracers in the same time.

[Y-29.Silky]

Just like back in ww2, only the fifth round is tracer. The amount of tracers in the belt is historical. They just need to move them around so not all the guns shoot tracers in the same time.

 

So no tracers, or every 6th. That is a great post Jaws! I hope the developers see that.

For the nine ball one tracer, I was going off of Robert J. Goebel's book.  

I guess I hope the day comes where we can configure custom ammo belts.

[Jaws2002]

Right now all belts start with tracer, followed by four non tracer rounds. Then the sequence repeats. So one in five is tracer, just like in the bottom two ammo boxes in that picture ( API-I-API-I-T and API-API-I-I-T).

Edited November 11, 2015 by Jaws2002

[FuriousMeow]

But please, the laser beams should go.

 

Laser beams?

 

 

I also have a webm of an auto-pistol being fired in twilight with tracer rounds, the tracers are incredibly accurate. They should be "laser beams."

 

I'm only presenting the gifs and webm as visual evidence to those that haven't actually seen these weapons fire with tracer rounds.

Edited November 18, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Tracers only look like this from an oblique and it is enhanced on film. From dead behind it should look more like the flaming bb that it is. BOS does a reasonable job with this effect most of the time.

[ShamrockOneFive]

But please, the laser beams should go.

 

If it was an actual laser beam then the beam would start and speed out at light speed to the horizon the moment the trigger was pressed.

 

They look like "lasers" from Star Wars which were modelled after tracer rounds popularized by experiences and movies shot from World War II. Tracers appear as discrete pulses. A pulse is not a beam.

[FuriousMeow]

Tracers only look like this from an oblique and it is enhanced on film. From dead behind it should look more like the flaming bb that it is. BOS does a reasonable job with this effect most of the time.

 

 

When firing these weapons from aircraft you are actually oblique. You don't sit right behind them like shoulder or hand fire weapons.

 

http://webmshare.com/play/n8oXb

Edited November 18, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Slight oblique, agreed, but it's pretty shallow.

[Yogiflight]

Tracers for the human eye never look like this. it is just because of the longer exposure time of the camera for the shot at darkness.

[BlitzPig_EL]

So, all the guns on the P40 are perfectly synchronized and fire exactly at the same time?

 

You do realize that is a total impossibility don't you?

Edited November 18, 2015 by BlitzPig_EL

[Dakpilot]

It is in the game engine

 

It was acknowledged as an error/oversight and will be corrected

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Brano]

If one never saw tracer projectiles in live usage,one cant say what is OK and what is NOK.I have seen plenty of 7.62 and 14.5mm tracers during my military service and I can say that no game will ever get it "right" without dedicating too much graphics/physics/lightning computing into it.Which is on the other hand,absolutelly unnecessary.How it is now is,as Patton said about sherman tanks - "good is good enough"

[Willy__]

On the matter of tracers... Just recently I decided to give a go on the full AP belt with the LA5. For my surprise it doesnt have any tracers at all! Shouldnt it have some tracers ?

[Finkeren]

On the matter of tracers... Just recently I decided to give a go on the full AP belt with the LA5. For my surprise it doesnt have any tracers at all! Shouldnt it have some tracers ?

Hmmm. I might be wrong, but when I use all-AP I'm pretty sure there are tracers.

 

But: If we are to be historically accurate, did tracer-AP ammunition actually exist? Wouldn't it kind of defeat the purpose? Tracer projectiles are partly hollow to provide space for the pyrotechnic charge, which would significantly reduce the density of the projectile and hence its penetrative power.

 

If Istruba is right, it could actually well be perfectly accurate.

[Yogiflight]

No tracer projectiles are not hollow. The tracer is positioned at the rear of the projectile. And AP ammunition was usually with tracer, if not allways, so the shooter was able to see, where he was shooting at, so he could correct his aiming.

[Brano]

BZT (API-T)ammo was available for ShVAK.It is not present in game-at least visually.Only BZ/API.Tracers are only OZT/HEI-T.

[Finkeren]

No tracer projectiles are not hollow. The tracer is positioned at the rear of the projectile. And AP ammunition was usually with tracer, if not allways, so the shooter was able to see, where he was shooting at, so he could correct his aiming.

Pretty much every single diagram of a tracer projectile I've ever seen looks like this:

 

 

So they are indeed hollow. It really doesn't matter that much, that the cavity is in the back of the projectile, it's still gonna rob it of crucial mass and density needed for penetration (standard AP munitions penetrate by being long and dense throughout its length with a hardened surface as well as hopefully being fired from a gun that gives it high muzzle velocity)

 

Also, I very much doubt, that every AP round was a tracer in any aircraft armament in WW2. The usual ratio was around 1 in 6 rounds in the belt being a tracer, anything above that is excessive.

 

As I said, if AP-T ammo was common, then no problem. I just never thought they were due to the negative impact on penetration.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Finkeren

[-TBC-AeroAce]

adding trace can be done to any round AP or HE but I guess the historic 40s way was just for HE and the reason its hollow is for the HE not the trace

Edited November 19, 2015 by [TBC]AeroACE

[Finkeren]

adding trace can be done to any round AP or HE but I guess the historic 40s way was just for HE and the reason its hollow is for the HE not the trace

No it's not.

The diagram I posted was of a standard 7.62mm NATO FMJ tracer round. The ignition compound and the tracer compound take up roughly 1/3 of the volume of the bullet. None of that is HE or incendiary.

 

I realise of course, that on a 20mm round, the tracer compound wouldn't take up 1/3 of the volume of the projectile (you really don't need more tracer compound for a 20mm than you do for a 7.62mm) but it still doesn't change the fact, that you're creating a cavity in an AP round, which is something you really don't wanna do unless you absolutely have to.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Finkeren

[Original_Uwe]

Tracers arent hollow. There is a filler used in the nose usually lead. Otherwise the flight of the round would not represent anything close to the ballistic arc of the other rounds (although tracers arent perfect in this regard anyway).

Real simple, go get some tracer ammo and cut the bullet tip open-my 5.56 tracers are lead nose.

[Finkeren]

Tracers arent hollow. There is a filler used in the nose usually lead. Otherwise the flight of the round would not represent anything close to the ballistic arc of the other rounds (although tracers arent perfect in this regard anyway).

Real simple, go get some tracer ammo and cut the bullet tip open-my 5.56 tracers are lead nose.

Jeez, whereever did I say that tracer rounds are hollow?!? What I said was, that there's a cavity in the rear part of the bullet that houses the tracer charge and ignition. This reduces overall mass and density of the bullet and therefore lessens the penetrative power.

 

A lead filled tip would not really work for an AP round, would it?

[FuriousMeow]

So tracer rounds are hollow, aren't hollow, are actually HE rounds with flamer fuel from Fallout, or are made of magic...

 

The La5's special belt AP only does indeed lack tracer rounds in sim. Is there a reason for it? Does the weapon we have modeled not have AP Tracer rounds at all, or at this time in the conflict were there not AP tracer rounds for that weapon? I see Brano's post above, so I'm assuming based on that there are indeed no AP tracer rounds for that weapon in sim, but were available there is a bug?

Tracers for the human eye never look like this. it is just because of the longer exposure time of the camera for the shot at darkness.

 

Yes, I know. But the "laser burst" effect sort of exists in real life. The pistol clip is actually pretty close. They aren't beams straight from the weapon to the target like the BW picture. However, the long exposure does show how very fine of a line the tracers run. Due to the long exposure and the lack of anything other than a straight line, it is very easy to see they are beam like in going straight to target.

So, all the guns on the P40 are perfectly synchronized and fire exactly at the same time?

 

You do realize that is a total impossibility don't you?

 

The tracers aren't on line, so they aren't perfectly synchronized.

Edited November 19, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[Brano]

Have to check my book about La-5.Only if I knew where I put it

[Mysticpuma]

325th Fighter Group had all tacker removed after they realised two things.

 

1: The practice of placing tracer in the ammunition belt to notify the pilot when there were only 200 rounds left was noticed by the luftwaffe as-well and indicated that the enemy would be barely able to defend itself.

 

2: When sneaking up on an enemy if the first rounds missed the enemy new they were being shot at and could make a defensive manoeuvre.

 

Have a no API option would be useful in the loadouts would be useful

[Willy__]

Give the option of no tracers for LW aswell, otherwise, I call it a bug, and therefore should be fixed. Thats the most logical explanation, giving that all loadouts ingame have tracers, the only one that is lacking is the full AP belt from the la5.

Edited November 19, 2015 by istruba

[Brano]

That's why it is special loadout as unlock.In one of my yak books there is no tracer ammo for ShVAK in ammobelt.But there was for shkas and/or UBS though.Must find that La-5 book.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Jeez, whereever did I say that tracer rounds are hollow?!? What I said was, that there's a cavity in the rear part of the bullet that houses the tracer charge and ignition. This reduces overall mass and density of the bullet and therefore lessens the penetrative power.

 

A lead filled tip would not really work for an AP round, would it?

The other thing it does is changes the ballistics in flight. Your tracer rounds, particularly as they get more distant, have less mass as they burn off and that changes the trajectory and is no longer indicative of where the majority of your rounds are landing. Lots of units got rid of them for this fact (and it also let the other guy know you were shooting at him if you missed).

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Although not modeled in game (yet!) these are the general specs on the .50 BMG round. There is every combination of AP/I/T and ball. Also, don't confuse incendiary with tracer. They are not the same.

 

Copied, in part, from here: http://worldwartwo.wikia.com/wiki/.50_BMG

 

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Tracer, M1

Tracer for observing fire, signaling, target designation, and incendiary purposes. This bullet has a red tip.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Incendiary, M1

This cartridge is used against unarmored, flammable targets. The incendiary bullet has a light blue tip.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, M2

This cartridge is used against personnel and unarmored targets. This bullet has an unpainted tip.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Armor-Piercing, M2

This cartridge is used against lightly armored vehicles, protective shelters, and personnel, and can be identified by its black tip.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Armor-Piercing-Incendiary, M8

This cartridge is used, in place of the armor-piercing round, against armored, flammable targets. The bullet has a silver tip.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Tracer, M10

Tracer for observing fire, signaling, target designation, and incendiary purposes. Designed to be less intense than the M1 tracer, the M10 has an orange tip.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Tracer, M17

Tracer for observing fire, signaling, target designation, and incendiary purposes. Can be fired from the M82/M107series of rifles.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Armor-Piercing-Incendiary-Tracer, M20

This cartridge is used, in place of the armor-piercing round, against armored, flammable targets, with a tracer element for observation purposes. This cartridge is effectively a variant of the M8 Armor-Piercing Incendiary with the added tracer element. Can be fired from the M82/M107 series of rifles. This bullet has a red tip with a ring of aluminum paint.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Tracer, Headlight, M21

Tracer for use in observing fire during air-to-air combat. Designed to be more visible, the M21 is 3 times more brilliant than the M1 tracer.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Incendiary, M23

This cartridge is used against unarmored, flammable targets. The tip of the bullet is painted blue with a light blue ring.

Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, M33

This cartridge is used against personnel and unarmored targets. Can be fired from the M82/M107 series of rifles.

Edited November 19, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Brano]

The other thing it does is changes the ballistics in flight. Your tracer rounds, particularly as they get more distant, have less mass as they burn off and that changes the trajectory and is no longer indicative of where the majority of your rounds are landing. Lots of units got rid of them for this fact (and it also let the other guy know you were shooting at him if you missed).

On the other hand many VVS pilots relied heavily on tracers due to poor optics of their gunsights.There was an unwritten rule to open fire only when you "see the rivets" and follow the tracers

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Which doesn't really change my statement, if you are firing within 200-250m. If you can, "see the rivets," it sounds like you are in knife fighting range and tracers would still have much of their mass/balistic properties. We are on the same page here.

Edited November 19, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The 'see the rivets' rule isn't really for knife fighting - they got as close as possible in any kind of attack, including high-speed dives and whatever else. Interestingly enough this tactic was also endorsed by Erich Hartmann (which got him shot down a couple of times by debris flying from the target).

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

"Knife fight," usually refers to range in this parlance as opposed to the setup/tactics. So, although not on the same page, we too are in the same ballpark. Now, back to tracers...................

[Brano]

I checked my book on La-5/7 yesterday but could not dig up any usefull info about tracer projectile.Only mix of BZ/OZ 70%/30% of ammobelt.And I found drawing of only OZT as projectile used in aircraft ammobelts.The tracer compund was really tiny comparing to overall size of projectile with weight of 0.5g out of 96g of total weight.

So there are 2 conclusions for me:

1. even BZT was available as an option for ShVAK,it was not widely used in aircraft ammo belts (but could be used in armoured vehicles/tanks).Instead OZT was probably preffered as a tracer = full BZ ammobelt will have (dis)advantage of having no tracers

2. BZT was used but it is missing its visual presentation in game = tracer = then it is bug.

[Jade_Monkey]

You got what you wanted! Tracers changed in the next patch!