Oculus VR

[Blitzen]

Any news about it working with this sim or RoF or for that matter CloD...In quiring minds would like to know....Has anyone tried any of the newer versions?

[Toxin1]

Based on what has been said so far, I believe Oculus support is on hold until such time as it supports DX9 which was has dropped. No word yet as to HTC Vive support.  Likely wait and see until sometime after both VR HMDs are released and market penetration is at levels that make financial since to invest resources.

[JG27_Chivas]

WT, and DCS World are the only WW2 aircombat sims creating support for the Rift.   DCS is also looking at the HTC Vive, but not word yet if they have the time to support it.  COD has shown no interest in VR at this point, as they have their hands full trying to complete the new map, aircraft,  content, as well as improvements to the original theater.

[Taffelman]

Not taking advantage of VR in a flight sim is a mortal sin in my opinion. Maybe not yet, but definitely when it's being released for the public.

[dburne]

Not taking advantage of VR in a flight sim is a mortal sin in my opinion. Maybe not yet, but definitely when it's being released for the public.

 

They would have to move to DX11 to have support for OR, and currently they have no plans to move to DX11.

OR has moved beyond DX9...

[Taffelman]

They would have to move to DX11 to have support for OR, and currently they have no plans to move to DX11.

OR has moved beyond DX9...

That's a bloody shame as I'm getting a kit as soon as they release it. 

[SharpeXB]

To be useful for combat flight sims, these VR devices are going to need 4K per eye or maybe higher. So it will be a while before these things are really worthwhile.

[VR-DriftaholiC]

4K will be nice but even flying DCS 1.5 with my DK2 is almost good enough. I think the CV1 and Vive will be viable. 

[JG27_Chivas]

To be useful for combat flight sims, these VR devices are going to need 4K per eye or maybe higher. So it will be a while before these things are really worthwhile.

You could be right, but we don't know that for sure yet.  People who have tried the latest consumer version prototypes with Space sims, seem to think the current resolution is workable.   It remains to be seen how the consumer versions will work with DCS 1.5/2.  Personally it won't have to be "perfect" for me to take the plunge, as there is no comparison in immersion between looking at a picture of a cockpit, and the elusion of actually sitting in one. 

 

Unfortunately its impossible to show the effect on a display, so many people will have to try VR to really understand the difference.   That said not everyone will agree.   Jason for example has suggested he preferred TrackIR,  Loft on the other hand loved VR the moment he tried it, and was showing BOS with the DK1 a few weeks later at an Eastern show.  I'm sure that implementation was far from perfect, and would take a lot of work to make it work right, but Oculus's dropping support for DX9, just made it a "Bridge to Far".  Hopefully the development will find the time and money to implement VR sometime in the future.  I think their long term future depends on it.

Edited November 7, 2015 by JG27_Chivas

[SharpeXB]

Im sure that resolution or even 8K will happen.

[taildraggernut]

To be useful for combat flight sims, these VR devices are going to need 4K per eye or maybe higher. So it will be a while before these things are really worthwhile.

 

They really won't need 4k per eye, we never had 4k monitors in the beginning of flight simulation and we all managed just fine, eventually of course VR headsets will evolve to have higher resolution, the simple fact is that in the beginning of this VR evolution we will be able to sacrifice the ultra high resolutions we are getting used to because the level of immersion and depth goes to a whole new level in VR, in time we will get 8k, 10k or whatever comes.

[SharpeXB]

we never had 4k monitors in the beginning of flight simulation and we all managed just fine,

1080p only works for flight sims because you can zoom in to see detail. You need to zoom I just to read the instruments in the cockpit and without the zoom view distant aircraft would simply vanish from view. I don't see how zoom view would work in VR

[taildraggernut]

1080p only works for flight sims because you can zoom in to see detail. You need to zoom I just to read the instruments in the cockpit and without the zoom view distant aircraft would simply vanish from view. I don't see how zoom view would work in VR

 

In VR it works as in real life, you move your face in closer to the instruments and you can see them better, as it stands right now most instruments are visible and readable in games like DCS without the need to move in very close, when you are used to the gauges you sort of begin to read them without seeing the numbers because you can see the scale and pointer well enough, the only thing that suffers in any meaningful way in the developer kits right now is long distance spotting, zooming would still work even in VR, it would be no different to looking through binoculars.

[SharpeXB]

Right, I don't mean Z-axis head movement, I mean the FOV zoom view. I figure that would be really disorienting in VR

I will have to reserve judgement until actually trying one of these headsets for myself. The consensus I read about them right now is that 1080 per eye is too soft for a combat flight sim. To be able to do things like identity distant aircraft and such. No doubt higher resolutions are in the future for these things. P Lucky refers to this first CV as a "crude proof of concept". The devices are going to get much better than what we will see next year.

[taildraggernut]

Palmer Luckey has generally been modest about the products to date, clearly he has had a vision of the future of VR so nothing will be adequate until it meets that expectation, all I can say is that even the developer kits are an absolute blast, rather than ditch the Oculus I have ended up ditching the simulators that don't currently support it, for me there is no other way forward.

 

I haven't actually tried to assign any zoom function for use in VR, for me zooming is highly unrealistic in 2D let alone VR, it's not how our eyes work I real life.

[SharpeXB]

for me zooming is highly unrealistic in 2D let alone VR, it's not how our eyes work I real life.

Why that discussion keeps cropping up I have no idea... The zoom view is the only way to replicate real world acuity when you're looking at a small PC screen.

A real pilot can see ground targets easily from 20,000'. Can you? On a 1080p screen without using the zoom, no.

When you're in your car do you have to lean in close to the dash to see which radio station is selected? I hope not.

Edited November 9, 2015 by SharpeXB

[taildraggernut]

Why that discussion keeps cropping up I have no idea... The zoom view is the only way to replicate real world acuity when you're looking at a small PC screen.

A real pilot can see ground targets easily from 20,000'. Can you? On a 1080p screen without using the zoom, no.

When you're in your car do you have to lean in close to the dash to see which radio station is selected? I hope not.

 

I would guess it comes up a lot because it's fact, at 20,000' you can't see as much as flight simmers seem to think you should (yes I'm a real pilot), zoom does not replicate visual acuity it simply compromises and is the best we get until super mega ultra resolution exists.

Not sure what the car radio simile has to do with anything, it's not that hard to lean in by a foot or so to read the gauges, do you have to turn your eyes to the right when you look to your left left? like you would with TrackIR.

[SharpeXB]

I would guess it comes up a lot because it's fact, at 20,000' you can't see as much as flight simmers seem to think you should (yes I'm a real pilot), zoom does not replicate visual acuity it simply compromises and is the best we get until super mega ultra resolution exists.

Not sure what the car radio simile has to do with anything, it's not that hard to lean in by a foot or so to read the gauges, do you have to turn your eyes to the right when you look to your left left? like you would with TrackIR.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_view_in_video_games

[taildraggernut]

Field of view in FPS shootemup games means nothing to me, I can only go on real life.

[SharpeXB]

Field of view in FPS shootemup games means nothing to me, I can only go on real life.

It's the same concept. Every 3D game that's played on a 2D screen has a "Field of View" Actually if you are looking at something full scale on the average size computer screen you'd be zoomed in fully with only a narrow FOV. But in order to have any realistic peripheral vision you need to zoom out and that makes everything you see on the screen really small. That's why the "zoom" or FOV in all flight sims and other simulator games like ARMA is variable.

"Games" like Call of Duty don't need that because they don't ask you to do real world tasks like see distant targets which would be invisible on a 1080p screen. Many players are unfamiliar with the variable FOV feature because typical "games" don't have it. It's a normal feature of all flight sims though since they'd be unplayable without it.

Edited November 9, 2015 by SharpeXB

[taildraggernut]

in VR it feels like wearing a pair of flying goggles and you have a bit of blurry vision.

[JG27_Chivas]

There are still a lot of compromises that have to be made.   The current VR HMD's resolutions are limited by current computers ability to drive higher resolutions with high framerates, and low latencies.   Computers will become more powerful, and HMD's more refined.   I know Oculus is looking at eye tracking where the display will only have to render higher resolutions on the small area of the display were our eyes are focused.   Since trying VR, I have no interest in flying on a computer display, I'll just play more golf until VR works with flight sims. :}

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Since trying VR, I have no interest in flying on a computer display, I'll just play more golf until VR works with flight sims. :}

That's my concern too. Reading other people's experiences, once I get my hands on a VR headset, I'll shelve everything that doesn't work with it that probably should.

 

It would be like having your rudder pedals or trackir break. Once you experience them, there is no going back.

[SharpeXB]

So DCS is having to up their model scaling feature to accommodate VR since even at the large setting the Oculus players are unable to see anything. But that makes the effect garish for anyone else

See this VR stuff is just not ready for prime time yet. It makes me actually glad BoS isn't messing around with it now. Someday when it's actually viable then sure it will be worthwhile. But for now it's not.

[JG27_Chivas]

So DCS is having to up their model scaling feature to accommodate VR since even at the large setting the Oculus players are unable to see anything. But that makes the effect garish for anyone else

See this VR stuff is just not ready for prime time yet. It makes me actually glad BoS isn't messing around with it now. Someday when it's actually viable then sure it will be worthwhile. But for now it's not.

Not sure why it would have a garish effect on anyone else.   The large setting is an option is it not?   VR may not be ready, but  that assumption is based on VR prototypes, and unfinished software implementations.  

[Milopapa]

With all due respect, I think that's just sour grapes.

While the first 2 or even 3 generations are not going to be the real deal (as pointed out, we'll need much higher resolution to even come close to the current dot-per-degree visual resolution of our 1080p monitors), I strongly believe it is going to change PC gaming AND flight sims forever.

 

Saying the resolution is not enough to be taken seriously is like frowning on the resolution of say, Wolfeinstein 3D back in the early 90's. Sure it got better later, but did that change the fact that it was crazy fun and immersive? No, it didn't.

 

Or just think about the first simulations we played. This was one of my favorites:

Or this:

Or this:

 

See where I'm going?

 

I understand you won't be able to compete online with people who are on 4k 27" monitors with TrackIR, BUT that doesn't mean it should be ignored.

For those of us who are in the game for the pure joy of experiencing flight from our armchair, it will be heaven.

[SharpeXB]

I don't doubt VR will be really incredible someday, probably someday soon.

But "scaling" is a feature borrowed from those old games you posted screenshots of. It doesn't belong in games today IMO

I haven't tried DCS 1.5 but from the comments it seems like the Engarged Model setting is a bit ridiculous looking, especially with ground targets since you can see their scale compared to nearby buildings etc. I hope BoS doesn't go that route.

What will happen in DCS is that it will end up being a "game aid" it's already been moved over to the menu section where Labels and Unlimited Ammo are. It's like another type of icon basically. Which is fine but, that means MP will end up regulating it and that in turn splits up the player base. So that's not really workable.

[taildraggernut]

VR already is incredible, it will here by the end of this year in it's consumer form, flight simulators will have to do the work to become VR friendly not the other way around, because a few technophobes cannot support a genre alone, a boat that I fear BOS has already missed.

[SharpeXB]

VR already is incredible, it will here by the end of this year in it's consumer form, flight simulators will have to do the work to become VR friendly not the other way around, because a few technophobes cannot support a genre alone, a boat that I fear BOS has already missed.

I'm not being technophobic. Bring on the VR, it's something that will add an incredible appeal to flight sims which are no doubt the most fun thing to do with the device.

 

But distorting the graphics in the game just to accommodate the prototype is probably wrong. This Enlarged Model setting which an OR user needs to barely see objects means that players on monitors can see other aircraft 30km away. I'm sure they're still tweaking the settings but it sounds ridiculous at the moment. And without the Enlarged Models an DK2 user apparently can't see another plane more than 2km away.

[SharpeXB]

The first consumer version OR will be like the first iPhone, it will rapidly be replaced by better versions. Samsung and Sony are already putting 4K displays on cell phones, the only reasonable use for which may be connecting them to stuff like the Gear VR. I'm sure the only reason the CV-1 is only 1200p is because PC graphics cards can't handle more. It needs a GTX 970 as a minimum spec. But next years graphics cards are going to be something like 10x as powerful. 16-32GB. A pair of those in SLI will handle better resolutions. I'll skip the CV1 and wait for that.

[dburne]

Well that is how technology goes, how it  has always been and always will be.

OR will be no exception to the rule...

 

It certainly sounds like OR even in it's first consumer version, is going to be pretty exciting...

I don't doubt VR will be really incredible someday, probably someday soon.
But "scaling" is a feature borrowed from those old games you posted screenshots of. It doesn't belong in games today IMO
I haven't tried DCS 1.5 but from the comments it seems like the Engarged Model setting is a bit ridiculous looking, especially with ground targets since you can see their scale compared to nearby buildings etc. I hope BoS doesn't go that route.
What will happen in DCS is that it will end up being a "game aid" it's already been moved over to the menu section where Labels and Unlimited Ammo are. It's like another type of icon basically. Which is fine but, that means MP will end up regulating it and that in turn splits up the player base. So that's not really workable.

 

No it is not ridiculous, and yes I actually do fly DCS 1.5. Have logged many hours in it since it was released to Open Beta.

 

Understand it is still in Open Beta, and work continues to tweak and improve many of the new graphics. I have little doubt the enlargement will continue to be tweaked.

Edited November 10, 2015 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

Well that is how technology goes, how it  has always been and always will be.

OR will be no exception to the rule...

 

It certainly sounds like OR even in it's first consumer version, is going to be pretty exciting...

 

 

No it is not ridiculous, and yes I actually do fly DCS 1.5. Have logged many hours in it since it was released to Open Beta.

 

Understand it is still in Open Beta, and work continues to tweak and improve many of the new graphics. I have little doubt the enlargement will continue to be tweaked.

Well I hope they keep tweaking it or just abandon the idea. Right now the models are double the size they were before and don't fade out with distance. So it's possible to see other aircraft at 50km. It's crazy.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

I'll skip the CV1 and wait for that.

 

Have you tried a nice demo in DK1 or DK2?

 

Even if CV1 is replaced one year after by CV2 bit better resolution, for me It will be impossible to wait one year for a CV2 and not enjoy all the experiences (including flight sim) that CV1 will bring.

 

Is it for the money?  If yes, then I can´t understand how someone can spend their money in gtx980SLI and not buy a CV1. 

[chiliwili69]

Making use of the zoom in a simulator is not a natural "thing". It is somehting you can not do in real life. The only thing you can do is using binoculars or a telescope.

 

TrackIR is not a natural thing. You move your head but keep the eyes on the screen. That´s weird. 

 

VR headsets are a natural thing. You move your head to the thing you want to see.

 

Since I have used DK1/DK2 I can not use trackIR anymore. When I play ROF/BOS I don´t use trackIR and I normally don´t use zoom.

 

With VR you sacrify resolution but it is well compensated by the inmersion and the feeling of being really there.

 

With all the money that Facebook is gogin to make, it would be nice that Marck Zukerberg acquire 1C/777 Studios create VR versions of ROF/BOS. This only will happen in the best of my dreams!!!

[SharpeXB]

Have you tried a nice demo in DK1 or DK2?

 

Even if CV1 is replaced one year after by CV2 bit better resolution, for me It will be impossible to wait one year for a CV2 and not enjoy all the experiences (including flight sim) that CV1 will bring.

 

Is it for the money? If yes, then I can´t understand how someone can spend their money in gtx980SLI and not buy a CV1.

No I haven't tried an OR. Actually although it sounds amazing, following the discussions over on DCS you realize the resolution of a VR headset is nowhere near adequate for a combat flight sim. You're stuck in 1080p (CV will be higher of course) and obviously your FOV is fixed at about a wide 90d. Therefore it's impossible to see other aircraft at any long range at all. In order to make DCS even playable for VR they're experimenting with this really awful scaling system which literally draws objects like tanks and such as large as skyscrapers 65km away so they can even be seen at all with the OR headsets.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2552967&postcount=73

Until VR is capable of simulating 20/20 vision it's going to be pretty useless for combat in flight sims. I can only imagine how high res the displays would need to be, higher than 4K each for sure.

The flying around part would be amazing but actually functioning in air combat is impossible. What ED is trying out with "scaling" is just bizarre and terrible looking and it shows how incapable the OR is at the moment. It's a good thing actually that OR doesn't support DX9 and 1CGS isn't getting dragged into this sort of nonsense. OR will be really amazing for other uses but for the near future CFS will not be it.

Edited November 13, 2015 by SharpeXB

[dburne]

 In order to make DCS even playable for VR they're experimenting with this really awful scaling system which literally draws objects like tanks and such as large as skyscrapers 65km away so they can even be seen at all with the OR headsets.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2552967&postcount=73

Until VR is capable of simulating 20/20 vision it's going to be pretty useless for combat in flight sims. I can only imagine how high res the displays would need to be, higher than

 

That is just factually incorrect information.

 

Their experimenting with model visibility . during the beta phase of DCS 1.5. ,has nothing to do with "  make DCS even playable for VR"... not to mention they change it and try different things with different builds. Which if you actually participated in the beta you would know that.

Until VR is capable of simulating 20/20 vision it's going to be pretty useless for combat in flight sims. I can only imagine how high res the displays would need to be, higher than 4K each for sure.

 

 

Well that is your opinion. Others seem to have another. Some of which have the OR.

 What ED is trying out with "scaling" is just bizarre and terrible looking and it shows how incapable the OR is at the moment. It's a good thing actually that OR doesn't support DX9 and 1CGS isn't getting dragged into this sort of nonsense. OR will be really amazing for other uses but for the near future CFS will not be it.

 

I would note, your comments on model visibility tests in the beta builds, are not based on you actually flying the beta builds... much like not having the OR...

Edited November 13, 2015 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

Why would they even Beta test something that looks so awful? And why would I even waste the time to install it?

It's really unbelievably bad. Just look at that link. And that's the smallest setting.

Look at this one

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2551549&postcount=40

 

The explaination given for the increase in size was due to the OR.

Edited November 14, 2015 by SharpeXB

[VR-DriftaholiC]

No I haven't tried an OR. Actually although it sounds amazing, following the discussions over on DCS you realize the resolution of a VR headset is nowhere near adequate for a combat flight sim. You're stuck in 1080p (CV will be higher of course) and obviously your FOV is fixed at about a wide 90d. Therefore it's impossible to see other aircraft at any long range at all. In order to make DCS even playable for VR they're experimenting with this really awful scaling system which literally draws objects like tanks and such as large as skyscrapers 65km away so they can even be seen at all with the OR headsets.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2552967&postcount=73

Until VR is capable of simulating 20/20 vision it's going to be pretty useless for combat in flight sims. I can only imagine how high res the displays would need to be, higher than 4K each for sure.

The flying around part would be amazing but actually functioning in air combat is impossible. What ED is trying out with "scaling" is just bizarre and terrible looking and it shows how incapable the OR is at the moment. It's a good thing actually that OR doesn't support DX9 and 1CGS isn't getting dragged into this sort of nonsense. OR will be really amazing for other uses but for the near future CFS will not be it.

 

You have a very strong and loud spoken opinion about VR for someone who hasn't actually tried a VR device.. As someone who owns a DK2 It's frustrating to read all the opinions you spew as it tends to read as "gospel" from a VR expert.

Edited November 20, 2015 by driftaholic

[SharpeXB]

You have a very strong and loud spoken opinion about VR for someone who hasn't actually tried a VR device.. As someone who owns a DK2 It's frustrating to read all the opinions you spew as it tends to read as "gospel" from a VR expert.

I'm just paraphrasing everything I read over at DCS. Someday I plan to get one of these things myself but based upon what I've read and know from using a 1080p & 4K monitor, I will wait until I see an Oculus Rift with at least 4K resolution. I don't think it will be a long wait, as soon a GPUs are able to handle that, which will be within 6 months you'll see VR go there for certain. I was really considering the first CV but now I will skip that one.

[JG27_Chivas]

We'll be sure to let you know what you are, or aren't missing.  I'm still hopeful, and doubt that devs who may have seen the latest prototypes would keep spending monies adopting VR if it looked like VR wouldn't be good enough for a few generations.  Of course everyone is different, some will love the first generations, others not so much.